The Almighty Turtwig GL! Gyarados Counter?

[sToRm07]

To begin this (hopeful) discussion I want to let everyone in on my background.

1. I have never played in an official PTCG tournament.
2. I just started less than a year ago
3. I mostly just lurk around pokegym and other reputable PTCG sites to see what is happening with the current metagame.

I know this thread has now tanked in respectability and probably brushed aside because of the points ^, but the time has come for me to try to utter something intelligent, perhaps enlightening, in regards to countering a re-surfaced nuisance to the PTCG metagame, Gyarados SF and his stupid magikarp slaves.

Consider the humble Turtwig GL​

http://www.pokemon.com/us/trading-cards/database/platinum-series/pl2/85/

Sporting a low damage output, weakness to all things fire, an unsightly :colorless::colorless::colorless: retreat cost and a pokebody Dialga G LV X could NOT (edited that lol) take to a corner and violate... many a trainer overlook this magnificent leaf-turtle-thing and have it hidden away in the Lost Zone of their binder(s).

Well, Perhaps this should be changed! Why?​

Properly equipped for success, this little guy could dominate the scariest of gyarados, and its buddies helping it too! Too good to be true? You decide!

Here is what Turtwig GL has going for it against Gyarados:

1. :water:-20 resistance, nerfing a 90 damage output gyara down to 70 and taking away the power benefit of a belted gyara. not shabby. But wait! there is more!

2. Healing potential. Turtwig GL, when combined with the infamous Shaymin LV X, can shoot up to 130 HP. Throw in an easily obtainable Expert Belt and you have the little guy (now a tank at 150 HP) healing with giga drain for 50 at least - 80 if his Overgrow body is active. Paired up with fact 1 ^ That can stall out gyarados even in the best of situations! VIRTUALLY INFINITELY. Don't think so? do the math! After playtesting for a week against a good friend and roommate of mine with a competitive Gyarados deck, Turtwig comes out on top every time.*

3. Accessibility. He is an SP. He can swarm somewhat - all one needs is something like a pokemon rescue, etc. and a :colorless::colorless: energy and a grass:grass: Almost as easy as Gyarados to play.

4. Damage output when belted and/or damaged. No one wants to get hit 80 damage by a 150 HP giant. (170 with the optional snowpoint, but I wouldn't run it). Of course, one can make sure that turtwig's body does not activate. But that means you aren't getting hit right?

*Regice does use Regi-move on it, and that can give Turtwig problems. This is easily alleviated by having two turtwigs out.

I find that matching up Turtwig GL with Exxegutor/ Looker's/Chatot/ lock to be highly effective. Power Spray for Bright Look is a must. To protect your Shaymin LV X from the likes of Garchomp, I find that using The tool Bench Shield rather than a Vespiquen UD is better for conserving bench space and is easily searchable with Department store Girl. Or even a Jirachi Final Wish / Twins Combo - since Turtwig attracts more of a set-up/stall deck than a speed one where you are always ahead on prizes.


Do you think Turtwig GL can surface above Rogue play only? What could be good teammates for it?

Is Turtwig a viable counter to Gyarados SF? And could it survive against the likes of other High Tier Decks?

Criticism and discussion appreciated. Tell me if this is wrong!

 

[pokemon99]

Good idea, but the only problem I see is that Gyarados gets set up on the second turn. Can you get a turtwig, shaymin lv.x, and a DCE and a grass energy out on Your second turn? It could work, but I feel that in this format it is a turn or 2 too slow.

~P99

 

[Phazon Elite]

haha I love this.

Granted, I would probably opt out of Shaymin in favor of Snowpoint Temple and Pluspowers in my first deck building attempts, but this is still good stuff.

 

[Mama_Luigi]

I had some really good times with this card
I remember I top 2'd a battle roads once (right after SV was released) with a turtwig Gl Luxray gl Alakazam 4 Garchomp C deck. Hey, it autowon kingdra.
Although it was kind of just Luxbox with Alakazam and turtwig techs.

 

[cj095]

Turtwig GL + SP cards + Garchomp C lv.x + 4 DCE + Grass friends = another SP deck

 

[Deoxys Cool Form]

Just to let you know, Dialga G Lv.X can't shut off the Pokebody as it's an SP Pokemon.

 

[nnaann]

It's a pretty cool idea. If this could be run with Celebi Prime, 4 DCE and a Garchomp line, you should be able to Dragon Rush most turns and have good SP matchups as well.

 

[sToRm07]

Good idea, but the only problem I see is that Gyarados gets set up on the second turn. Can you get a turtwig, shaymin lv.x, and a DCE and a grass energy out on Your second turn? It could work, but I feel that in this format it is a turn or 2 too slow.

~P99

yeah... gyarados is way too good at this! To combat this very real problem, I have found two different options.

Option 1: I try running 3-4 Jirachi RR and basically make my opponent hate me for them setting up faster. With Jirachi RR's final wish, idealistically comboed with a twins. there is five cards i needed into my hand! BAM.

Option 2: I always try to perform a lock before setting up my mid to late game turtwig. This can be done with Exeggutor and Looker's Investigation/Night teleporter locks or even a really nice Jirachi RR + Cyrus' Initiative lock to on average remove 2 of your opponent's cards from their hand. Combo this with Chatot G and it is nasty. I know for a fact that any deck that has to set up a lvl x and has a pokemon that cannot swarm because of a higher energy cost like turtwig wont be ahead on prizes at the beginning. First you set up / disrupt, then you stall. Regimove is a lot more impractical when your opponent only has 2-3 cards in their hand.

do you think that will work?

---------- Post added 01/18/2011 at 10:52 AM ----------

haha I love this.

Granted, I would probably opt out of Shaymin in favor of Snowpoint Temple and Pluspowers in my first deck building attempts, but this is still good stuff.

Thanks man. I totally see where you are coming from! It has been long debated over if Landmin X can make it in a grass themed deck due to it's clunkieness upon getting out to the field, and then awkwardly retreating without wasting resources. From my testing, it seemed it was not to hard when comboed with a warp point, warp energy, or even unown q.

Snowpointe temple, two of them, were originally in my deck! But i was always getting BTS'ed over and/or regretting snowpoint's double edged nature - having to face a now 110 Regice of my opponent or a 80 HP Sableye.

Turtwig can be taken advantage of with just 110 HP if snowpoint goes away. :/ It happened to me before with my friend's gyarados - Expert Belt Gyarados hitting for 90, plus a crobat drop x2.

Pluspower would be great! The up side it will give you an extra push to getting that KO in certain sitations where 50 or 80 dont quite cut it, but the downside is that it can mess up with the sensitive mechanics of his pokebody activation. Sometimes, you do not want to heal to much in order to have Overgrow activated! I have even put unown P with Put to make sure he can be at 60 or less lol.

By the way, loved your drapion deck idea!:thumb:

---------- Post added 01/18/2011 at 11:00 AM ----------

Turtwig GL + SP cards + Garchomp C lv.x + 4 DCE + Grass friends = another SP deck

Honestly, it really is not another SP deck I would be proposing to be built around Turtwig GL

In this deck, I really only would utilize a few SP elements: Power Spray, Cyrus's Conspiracy, and perhaps even the Sp-only Technical Machine with Damage Porter for sniping. I do not need energy gain - rather preferring Expert Belt, and I really do not need poketurns all that badly or SP Radars. Other than the like 4 SP Pokemon that are involved here to help power spray (Crobat G. TURTWIG GL, Chatot G, and Skuntank G) by no means does this deck have any reason to be more SP.

Hybriding this SP part with a non-SP lock deck (Jirachi RR starter and Exeggutor) or combee deck has been really successful so far, but perhaps after testing against more decks not gyarados it will have worse match-ups! Blaziken FB LV X *cough*

 

[Parco Folgore]

My friend Kevin made a Turtwig deck on a whim, using Alakazam 4 to place just the right amount of damage onto Turtwig so he's at 60 HP, no less. Alakazam also helps with healing. I think this deck has some potential, but it isn't fast/consistent enough to win bigger tournaments.

 

[Austino]

flash bites, expert belt, and regimove all tend to get around a tanking turtwig.

Not to mention, how do you plan on taking consistent prizes when they can SSU/Junk arm/warp+seeker?

Other issue is what are you going to do against other decks that aren't gyarados? The only way for turtwig to get the upper hand is to be solely focused to beat G'dos, which even then, the above mentioned are solid methods of overcoming the twig. If it's focused to solely beat gyarados, it'll lose to everything else for the most part.

 

[UkeleleMilo]

LOLZ! your roomate was telling me about this!! haha he said he got pwned hardcore. Thanks for putting him in his place for me I'm a NOOB so i couldn't have when he was back in town That, and i was running a t-tar deck (uber slow).

But is this your actual deck? or just to counter JTsunami?


Sidenote: My dropout electrician deck is out of date and doesn't need help. my Spread deck and my eevolutions will in the near future, but that one SUUCKED.

 

[sToRm07]

flash bites, expert belt, and regimove all tend to get around a tanking turtwig.

Not to mention, how do you plan on taking consistent prizes when they can SSU/Junk arm/warp+seeker?

Other issue is what are you going to do against other decks that aren't gyarados? The only way for turtwig to get the upper hand is to be solely focused to beat G'dos, which even then, the above mentioned are solid methods of overcoming the twig. If it's focused to solely beat gyarados, it'll lose to everything else for the most part.

I am going to have to disagree with this. Strongly. lol. Those solid methods that you have proposed do not even take into account another turtwig on the bench; much less a locked up hand that would make even the most reckless gyarados player consider not discarding the only two cards in their hand. Crobats and expert belt being an effective means to counter turtwig? sounds like you need to test the consistency in that. Here is something I found though, now that this is being brought to attention. With my ideal set-up (and it is easy to achieve) The "Twig" is sporting 150 Hp and a -20 resistance to :water:

Let's say you use Gyarados with expert belt. Combined with exhausting resources heavily and flashbiting 4 times. Generous!

110d-20d(resistance)+40d = 130d

130<150 HP

Now this might wear turtwig down over time, but you cannot tell me you can keep doing this and nailing those seeker draws and ssu flips.

Oh, and on the matter of consistent prizing. I think I have an answer to this valid point. Do you remember http://www.pokemon.com/us/trading-cards/database/platinum-series/pl2/95/

Damage porter. Say little turtwig has 80 HP left from his 150 HP. This means he has 70 damage on him. This also means he can 1HKO or finish off most anything on the field or bench. If he has 60 HP left? and an expert belt? He is smacking a benched pokemon for 90. Or the active pokemon for.... 140!This is taking in to consideration overgrow and expert belt.

This card is EASY to search for with Cyrus's Conspiracy - seeing the only two sp trainers i need are power spray and this technical machine.

I strongly believe that many things in the competitve metagame will have problems with this turtwig idea, but I have yet to have proof except very early tendencies of a basic auto-win against gyarados if I am not donked.

---------- Post added 01/18/2011 at 04:09 PM ----------

LOLZ! your roomate was telling me about this!! haha he said he got pwned hardcore. Thanks for putting him in his place for me I'm a NOOB so i couldn't have when he was back in town That, and i was running a t-tar deck (uber slow).

But is this your actual deck? or just to counter JTsunami?


Sidenote: My dropout electrician deck is out of date and doesn't need help. my Spread deck and my eevolutions will in the near future, but that one SUUCKED.

hey man! This started as a counter to jTsunami's IRRITATING top tier Gyarados deck, but its evolved into more seeing that it worked out so well! Hopefully it won't be smothered by other decks in future testing. I am about to play my other friends Steelix tank deck That should be nice and... long. lol

Good to see you are on here man! Good luck with those eveelutions, they are fun to play!

 

[flash2351]

Hey,

I love this deck idea because i think that its really creative and playable. A few cards i would recommend throwing in are a few cherrims line (split between the ar one to protect u and sf one to boost your dmg), and also black belt. Black belt is amazing, esp since you are healing your dmg. Black belt is great against opposing sp decks cause 80+40 is just nice enough to ko every sp lvl x except belted dialga. If you have trouble with fire pokemon, a 1-1 metapod HGSS line would help.

I believe that this deck can definitely make it as a surprise rogue in tournaments as it is so unconventional in this format. You are tanking and forcing your opponent to exhaust resources while you build up an unkillable deck =D. However, from personal experience, there are two things you really need to keep track of when playing such decks, firstly, dun give your opponents too many cheap prizes, e.g. against sp, when they only have 2 prizes left, stop dropping uxies, cherrims on your bench. You need to force them to attack your turtwig. Secondly, time. Tank decks are generally slower and needs to wait until your opponent exhausts his resources before you can start drawing prizes. So often, you may have the upper hand on the field, but your opponent still has the prize lead when time is called.

Now, onto bad matchups for this deck. This deck would be tore apart by a straightchamp deck since he will just take out all your turtwigs. Also, vilegar might post a problem, given that you should be running a high trainer count and also, fainting spell is definitely very irritating. I'm not sure how you can tech against machamp, but regice and skunktank would be great for the vilegar matchup. Regice helps you control the poltergeist dmg while with skunktank you can ohko gengar without activating fainting spell. 60+40(black belt)+10(poison),

 

[amphachu]

My friend Kevin made a Turtwig deck on a whim, using Alakazam 4 to place just the right amount of damage onto Turtwig so he's at 60 HP, no less. Alakazam also helps with healing. I think this deck has some potential, but it isn't fast/consistent enough to win bigger tournaments.

Hehe Turtwig was hilarious. I packed mine with Shaymin and Alakazam with a bunch of Level Maxes and Warp Points/Energy. It lost against anything that wasnt Gyarados. Yeah, it takes a bit to set up, but once you get out Shaymin, Alakazam, and a Belted Energized Turtwig, Gyarados might as well scoop.

 

[sToRm07]

Hey,

I love this deck idea because i think that its really creative and playable. A few cards i would recommend throwing in are a few cherrims line (split between the ar one to protect u and sf one to boost your dmg), and also black belt. Black belt is amazing, esp since you are healing your dmg. Black belt is great against opposing sp decks cause 80+40 is just nice enough to ko every sp lvl x except belted dialga. If you have trouble with fire pokemon, a 1-1 metapod HGSS line would help.

I believe that this deck can definitely make it as a surprise rogue in tournaments as it is so unconventional in this format. You are tanking and forcing your opponent to exhaust resources while you build up an unkillable deck =D. However, from personal experience, there are two things you really need to keep track of when playing such decks, firstly, dun give your opponents too many cheap prizes, e.g. against sp, when they only have 2 prizes left, stop dropping uxies, cherrims on your bench. You need to force them to attack your turtwig. Secondly, time. Tank decks are generally slower and needs to wait until your opponent exhausts his resources before you can start drawing prizes. So often, you may have the upper hand on the field, but your opponent still has the prize lead when time is called.

Now, onto bad matchups for this deck. This deck would be tore apart by a straightchamp deck since he will just take out all your turtwigs. Also, vilegar might post a problem, given that you should be running a high trainer count and also, fainting spell is definitely very irritating. I'm not sure how you can tech against machamp, but regice and skunktank would be great for the vilegar matchup. Regice helps you control the poltergeist dmg while with skunktank you can ohko gengar without activating fainting spell. 60+40(black belt)+10(poison),

Thank you for the great tips! I totally agree man, straight machamp decks would dominate turtwig pretty hard. Vilegar less so i guess with the amount of trainers I am running, but the outlook is pretty bleak. I love the idea of black belt and either cherrim! Since Turtwig is coming from behind 9 times out of ten, Blackbelt would be wonderful. I am not sure if i could run a lock combo with the cherrims and regice, as my bench already seems to be a fire hazard, but there is so much to test!

Skuntank G is already in my tech list he is great to get that extra ten damage and also combos beautifully with Landmyn's damage aid - making it hit for 80 non-belted for :colorless::grass:
Also, this deck has elements of a Jirachi Donk deck since it already has 2-3 Jirachi RR's and 3 Seekers. Skuntank G can combine with flash bite drops to donk when your opponent has up to three pokemon out.

---------- Post added 01/18/2011 at 06:14 PM ----------

Hehe Turtwig was hilarious. I packed mine with Shaymin and Alakazam with a bunch of Level Maxes and Warp Points/Energy. It lost against anything that wasnt Gyarados. Yeah, it takes a bit to set up, but once you get out Shaymin, Alakazam, and a Belted Energized Turtwig, Gyarados might as well scoop.

and seeing that Gyarados is now basically 2nd BDIF, I would say that is pretty awesome.

I think the only way for any Turtwig deck to do well outside of Gyarados is for it to have a partner that can deal heavy damage - like combee - or even lock charactertistics so you can slow your opponent down to your speed as you build up.
and I REALLY wish I had enough room for Lvl Max! Insane pontential in that card.

 

[UkeleleMilo]

I

hey man! This started as a counter to jTsunami's IRRITATING top tier Gyarados deck, but its evolved into more seeing that it worked out so well! Hopefully it won't be smothered by other decks in future testing. I am about to play my other friends Steelix tank deck That should be nice and... long. lol

Good to see you are on here man! Good luck with those eveelutions, they are fun to play!

Yeah dude! that deck is SOOO annoying. I tried to play it w/ a T-tar prime/SF deck... meh. i was 1 turn away from setting up my SF enough to kill his G'dos (possibly. but knowing him he woulda healed/pulled out +power) but now that i have faster decks (and one of them is a decent MammoVire type spread deck) I might stand a chance

And yeah... Eevees are super simple and diverse and stage 1s. I might have a chance against his speed!

OH! when I post my new decklists I'll message/contact you on here so you can advise/tell me how much they suck/shwhatev. But you don't have to if you don't want to, but it'd be jigamigantically appreciated by me if you did (or anyone else who's not a hopelessly noob-esque like 99.78% of the people i play with... including me)

(The quote says from sToRm07, but i didn't know how to fix that. )

 

[sToRm07]

Yeah dude! that deck is SOOO annoying. I tried to play it w/ a T-tar prime/SF deck... meh. i was 1 turn away from setting up my SF enough to kill his G'dos (possibly. but knowing him he woulda healed/pulled out +power) but now that i have faster decks (and one of them is a decent MammoVire type spread deck) I might stand a chance

And yeah... Eevees are super simple and diverse and stage 1s. I might have a chance against his speed!

OH! when I post my new decklists I'll message/contact you on here so you can advise/tell me how much they suck/shwhatev. But you don't have to if you don't want to, but it'd be jigamigantically appreciated by me if you did (or anyone else who's not a hopelessly noob-esque like 99.78% of the people i play with... including me)

sounds good man!

and i was there, it will get better! Heck, I am still a noob compared to quite a few people on this site. I would like to help you!

 

[UkeleleMilo]

Rofl, really? sorry didn't make the connection! but yeah, my decks are much improved ( i played David the other day and went 4-2? 4-1? against his swampert rapist push over/dragout strategy with an improv eevolution!. )
oh, and you're always gonna be a noob to SOMEONE on this site! i mean... i just read some articles, and DANG they know they shtuff. can't wait to get alot better and place at state and stuff ... yes i do plan on that btdubz.

 

[sToRm07]

Rofl, really? sorry didn't make the connection! but yeah, my decks are much improved ( i played David the other day and went 4-2? 4-1? against his swampert rapist push over/dragout strategy with an improv eevolution!. )
oh, and you're always gonna be a noob to SOMEONE on this site! i mean... i just read some articles, and DANG they know they shtuff. can't wait to get alot better and place at state and stuff ... yes i do plan on that btdubz.

touche man, chase that dream!

 

[Charizard1987]

Dont forget about alakazam 4. Now you can move damages to turwig to deal more damage and heal.