And you would still have players cheat to turn a profit on the promo
The case for pre-releases
- Thread starter rokman
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And you would still have players cheat to turn a profit on the promo
Skitty
New Member
1st: You get the packs 2 weeks before the release date. I know quite a few people that'll pay $25/$30 for that reason alone.
2nd: $95? My local card shops sell boxes of the last few sets for $79 without tax. :/
The way I used top see people doing it years ago wasn't at the actual event. They would make a decent deck from their actual real cards, win 1-2 rounds and then go to lunch break at a local Carl's Jr/McD's/ect. And then swap around their Pokemon lines there since the judges usually stayed at the event location.
And there's not really anything anyone like me could have done to report them either since they would be smart and switch out cards for others of the same rarity. I suppose I could have taken pictures of them doing it. But that would probably do more harm than good.
totoro
Active Member
So, I'm supposed to go into a retail shop and drastically undercut retail prices at a prerelease? I'll make a lot of storeowner friends this way. I'll be running prereleases on a driveway somewhere.
I know the day afte week one of DRX, I bought a Hooh and got it by the PR I went to. If I would have used it, that would be cheating.
TO's have to forward sales tax to state and local governments, even though they don't (typically) include that in the sticker price they charge. Your internet reseller does not. They also need to be physically present for the pre-release, which is probably 5-6 hours of labor per event. (That includes both theme deck and booster events, plus time required to upload registration data to pokemon.com, handle credit card transactions, and move the money. So 5-6 hrs is probably awfully conservative.) I doubt your internet reseller spends that much time on your order. You do, admittedly, pay for re-shipping on the internet.
I don't know the economics, but I can't imagine TO's make a ton of money from these events.
I really like the current pre-release structure. At our events in MN, we get a LOT of novice, casual and collector players that might not come if there were more intense competition. It's really great to have those players involved. Every so often, one will make the jump to competitive play, and then the Modified events benefit.
KazamBolt
Active Member
1.) That doesn't mean that each pack needs to be overpriced by a dollar or probably more. Sure, $1 isn't that much you might say but really it adds up.
2.) I know of 0 card shops in the mid Michigan area that sell boxes of Pokemon at all. I have to resort to buying online if I want it shipped to me, or wait until my TO is selling them. However, that means at a tournament and I want the cards to use in a tournament, not after I'm already in one.
This is what I was trying to preemptively apologize for. I did not think about running a prerelease in a card shop, none in Michigan are done like that really. That's the best reason I've heard.
However, I'm not even saying to have prices lower than retail. I'm just saying that for 6 people paying $30 and getting 8 packs, that's almost double the cost of a box, way over retail. Prereleases were originally run at $20 and that was for 6 packs. That's still more than $3 per pack which is what my TO sells packs for.
And don't forget to add in the cost of renting the venue.
KazamBolt
Active Member
1.) But also, someone has to pay for the tax in the case of the online sale as well. Either that's Pokemon or the retailer, but it shouldn't be different in the case of the Prerelease.
2.) There's another good point. I (and I assume many other people) forget that the TO needs to be financially compensated for the time they spend doing this. My apologies. Oh, and the venue as well. These are things I admittedly take for granted while playing this game.
3.) I like the prerelease structure as well, that's not my concern.
Skitty
New Member
Actually you are. MSRP for newer Pokemon packs is $3.99. Which would mean 8 packs should be $32 before tax. Card shops and some online shops might sell packs for less than $3.99, but that doesn't mean they're supposed to be that cheap. MSRP exists for a reason. And each indavidual shop/chain decides what to make the price after that.
This. They also have to compensate the judges as well as (usually) pay for food for them.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
There's these little things called corporate greed and beholding unto shareholders as well. When competing card games can sell their comparable product at retail for just over 2 bucks a pack for the same number of cards with the same quality of stock, and also printed in the USA, and still make a profit the whole inflation bit holds no water. You can make arguments about venue cost, judge compensation, and everything else all day long, but it's still far cheaper than one TV commercial. Prereleases were originally intended as a form of advertising, not as another way to directly profit off the consumer. This ended when T.O. started being charged for prerelease product.
Truth is most of the promotion of this game is done on a level of no compensation what-so-ever. Over the last 12 years, I alone have fostered well over 1500 kids and their families to invest in and enjoy the game through league. Many other people have done far more. Hell, the T.O.s I talk to are usually in the red when it comes to Pokemon, putting more in than they ever get out of it. Now Pokemon thanks them by raising their price to the T.O.s (not to retail, just to the T.O.s) so these hard working, good hearted individuals have to face the brunt of consumer anger for a job they aren't, at the end of the day, even really being compensated for. Shenanigans!
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ryanvergel
New Member
I went to a PR yesterday. It pretty much sucked.
There are a few key differences between the PRs today and those of the past.
1. Cost. 50% price increase. 20->25->30. It’s understandable, in some sense, because of inflation. However, at 30 for 8 packs, that is $135/box. I don’t think they should be quite that expensive. It’s a little overpriced now. There is almost no incentive to go to a prerelease, other than to get cards sooner. But if you’re not playing in any events, it’s more cost effective to buy a box (and get a more realistic, predictable amount of product in terms of exs, FAs, shiny, etc).
2. Prizes. I don’t like the fact that they did completely away with prizes. Even if you got FOUR packs for winning- ANYTHING, it would make the event immensely more fun and competitive.
3. The distribution of YOUR packs. Getting 6 packs and expecting to make a deck out of it is LAUGHABLE. Unless you donk it and get a big ex, your deck is going to look like mine:
1/1/1 Unfezant
2/1 Golduck
1/1 Sandslash
1 Ditto
1 Skarmory
1 Dunsparce
1 Audino
1 Skyla
1 Hugh
1 Potion
1 Switch
1 Town map
1 Great Ball
1 Aspertia
11 Water
10 Fighting
I somehow managed to go 4-1 with that dream team. It WAS NOT FUN, even winning, because with 6 packs there is nothing fun about a deck you’re trying to make. You will not get any evolutions. You go to these events now, to PRAY you get a big ex, or just struggle and have almost no fun.
You already increased the price to the point of it not being cost effective. Now, you should either give all 8 packs at the start, so people can actually make a real deck, or give more packs (6-3 split for 9 total), or give some kind of small compensation for winning/placing the PR.
As it stands, PRs are not cost effective for players, and are losing their fun value fast. At least before we could tell ourselves this cost of time and money was benefitted by the value of the cards/packs. That is no longer the case. You’re better off waiting 2 weeks, and buying a box to draft yourselves.
Something’s gotta be done. Either give all the packs out, give an extra pack, or compensate achievement.
or, just realize that as a 'competitive player' prereleases may not be catering specifically to you?
league kids/casual players LOVE prereleases. LOVE THEM. they get to open SIX! whole packs all at once, and play a short, FUN tournament without having to worry about a beatdown by more experienced players or players who have parents/older siblings who have all the bcif at their disposal. everyone's on a level playing field due to the luck of the packs...
i'm not at ALL saying that competitive players aren't welcome at prereleases. but if it's not fun for you, if you feel the event isn't 'worth it', if you'd rather buy boxes...
can't ONE event series be casual and just for fun?
league kids/casual players LOVE prereleases. LOVE THEM. they get to open SIX! whole packs all at once, and play a short, FUN tournament without having to worry about a beatdown by more experienced players or players who have parents/older siblings who have all the bcif at their disposal. everyone's on a level playing field due to the luck of the packs...
i'm not at ALL saying that competitive players aren't welcome at prereleases. but if it's not fun for you, if you feel the event isn't 'worth it', if you'd rather buy boxes...
can't ONE event series be casual and just for fun?
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
How fun and casual is it when the number of packs you get has been lessened, prize support has been eliminated, and you are paying in many cases MORE than full retail for the packs? And that's without having to pay the middle man distributors as the product is coming DIRECTLY from the manufacturer. If you can pull that wool far enough over your eyes, or are a child who has no concept of money and budgeting and how things work in the real world, then yeah they're still fun. For those who know better, these events have sadly become a sham and a rip. And you don't have to be a competitive player to see that.
But, there have been many threads complaining of the higher costs and lessened prize support with no positive change. Perhaps the only way to really grab the attention and make for better resolution is to do exactly what you said 'Mom. Stop feeding the cash cow and boycott the prereleases- from the T.O.s running them down to the player and fan bases who attend them.
But, there have been many threads complaining of the higher costs and lessened prize support with no positive change. Perhaps the only way to really grab the attention and make for better resolution is to do exactly what you said 'Mom. Stop feeding the cash cow and boycott the prereleases- from the T.O.s running them down to the player and fan bases who attend them.
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z-man
New Member
Can't we have ONE event series that doesn't split the playerbase? League kids/casual players LOVE free prizes. They love FUN tournaments that end up rewarding them for successful play. Guess what. Competitive players also love the thrill of competition. The prizes shouldn't be worth worrying about, but they should exist. I've been to magic prereleases, and everyone there seems to have fun. The back tables are always enjoyable, and the top tables offer a challenge for even some of the best players. Why do prerelease prizes have to split the playerbase? Can't everyone have a little bit of fun at prereleases? Just give us a reason to win, and we'll play to win. I remember, as a new senior, getting super excited that I won an EX Emerald prerelease pin. The pack opening was a lot of fun, the games were fun, and I ended up walking out the doors with something that I could show off with. I didn't go in expecting to win or even hoping to win. I did fairly well at that event and I was rewarded with something unique and fairly awesome. Prereleases now don't have that "surprise you won something" element. They don't have a "you won something" element at all... they're now mostly about opening booster packs... which is just as fun in a tournament as outside of a tournament.or, just realize that as a 'competitive player' prereleases may not be catering specifically to you?
league kids/casual players LOVE prereleases. LOVE THEM. they get to open SIX! whole packs all at once, and play a short, FUN tournament without having to worry about a beatdown by more experienced players or players who have parents/older siblings who have all the bcif at their disposal. everyone's on a level playing field due to the luck of the packs...
i'm not at ALL saying that competitive players aren't welcome at prereleases. but if it's not fun for you, if you feel the event isn't 'worth it', if you'd rather buy boxes...
can't ONE event series be casual and just for fun?
Right now, prereleases are fairly anti-fun for most players. With nothing on the line, there is no reason to play the game. This isn't just a sentiment that I have... I've heard it from many other players. A few seniors and juniors (not competitive) in my area have stopped trying to win at prerelease because they've come to the conclusion that playing prerelease games are less fun and less rewarding than playing normal casual games with their real decks against their friends.
SD Pokemom, if we're going to use that kind of logic, why have a tournament at all? Why not have prereleases be more of a league system whereby we play 5 games and get our two packs. IMO, that'd be a lot more fun because at least we could play against our friends. Having a tournament with no reward seems like a waste. It is a tournament simply for the sake of being a tournament. That may be fun if we're testing our skill, but we aren't. This is a prerelease... not standard.
Moreover, I'd like to address the issue of cheating. First off, I don't endorse cheating... ever. I'm merely giving the psychology that I've heard from a few known cheaters at prereleases (many of which are my friends whom would never cheat in a real tournament environment). Right now, there are no repercussions for cheating, so why would you not cheat at a prerelease? It makes your deck significantly more fun to play (a few crappy lines and 2 TSS is not a fun deck to play). Without prizes, no one is getting hurt when you cheat. I'd imagine that a lot of the players in question would stop cheating if prizes are actually offered. Moreover, who cares if they cheat. These tournaments are meant to be fun. A few bad apples isn't much reason to refuse to go to the orchard. Giving prizes might reward cheaters, but prizes would also make prereleases a lot more fun for us honest players. The prizes don't have to be significant. You can even give us one pack per two wins that we get. Just having a reason to win games is important. Games without stakes are less fun for just about everyone. Being able to tell a young child "you won this boosterpack" gets them more excited than "everyone gets a boosterpack".
Prereleases do not need to be competitive (and they honestly shouldn't be competitive). Even so, games with something on the line are more fun for just about everyone than games without stakes. If we continue to not have stakes on our prerelease games, we should honestly move to a league system where we play against our friends. Prereleases right now are very anti-fun for large groups of the population, so we should at least try something to fix it. These changes would benefit more people than you might think.
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
I aware its a ripoff, im aware of the concept of money and im a super competitive player trying to qualify for worlds yet i still go and have a great time. As a competitive player its nice to have a break from heavy testing to go to a casual event and just have fun for a day without having to worry about the outcome. BRs, 3 regionals, 2 months of cities, 3 states, nationals and worlds: if thats not enough competitive events thats your problem they dont need to make prereleases more competitive(and less fun) by adding prizes. Thats what a draft is for after the prereleases.
waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
Coulda stopped right there. Even through the rest of your pro argument (which I wholeheartedly support the sentiment of), that first statement speaks volumes.
Being a somewhat new player, I've only seen 1 price increase, never had prizes and the number of packs has remained the same. So no big loss to me there.
More than full retail for the packs? I paid $25 by preregistering, but let's assume it was $30. $30 / 8 = $3.75. Packs are typically 4 bucks around here unless it's an older set. That valuation doesn't even include the deckbox and promo (I flipped one of my promos for $10 yesterday). As a collector, they also hold value for me.
Then, aside from the physical value, the fun of playing a simple tourney, trading and getting the cards early. Since that is subjective, you cannot put a firm value on it, and therefore, the following (condescending) statement need not apply:
I'm not a child and I'm wearing no head gear, and I don't feel AT ALL ripped off -- I just value things differently. If you are financially-sensitive, then something like this is likely not a good value for you -- but for me to say something like "you're a broke such-and-such who should just eat ramen noodles" would be quite rude, but on par with what you said above.
Feel free to boycott the PRs -- that should leave a fun atmosphere for those who appreciate and enjoy them :thumb:
Incorrect most (but not all) of the time. Interstate commerce is exempt from state and local sales tax. That means that, in most cases, as long as the seller is in a different state than you (and has no "physical presence" in your state), no sales tax will be charged for your online purchases.
Many states do have a "use tax" that applies to online purchases that is an identical rate as the sales tax you would normally pay. This isn't collected by the merchant; instead, states expect you to pay it yourself, voluntarily, even though the state has no information about how much you have spent. Now, while I'm sure that PokeGym readers are all enthusiastic, law-abiding payers of use taxes, I have heard of individuals--not naming any names here--who do not report their online interstate purchases to their state governments. Some PokeGym readers may not have even heard of use taxes. Or, care about them. (Search for your state + use tax to learn more. Or don't.)
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waynegg
CotD Editor<br>Forum Moderator
Being someone who has promoted this game for over a decade I have a much different view. Prereleases were originally $15. Got 10 packs and a promo with the chance to earn a box. You can routinely buy packs for $3.25 or so at comic shops and online retailers who don't participate in price fixing.
I can see how someone with your perspective can have the opinion you have and I won't try to devalue it.
I will however say that in 2000 when I first began running league (Mine was one of the first to qualify and be held outside of a Toys r Us, which is where I began helping run League) I had over 250 players. More than half regularly attended tournaments. Now, in my once again growing League, I have had ONE player who can afford to keep up and he moved away. All of my kids would love to be able to go to tournaments but the cost on a young family makes it prohibitive and though I try, I can't furnish a competitive deck to each of them every time a new set is released.
Now, with prereleases being what they are they can't even afford them. And I'm sorry, there's no excuse for it. What with eliminating the middle man and it (presumptively because it at least used to) coming out of advertising dollars to hold them, there is no reason to stick it to the community who has for years supported the game.
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