Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The future of Stage 2 Pokemon

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fawfulmark2

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i recently returned to Pokes after dabbling in the Videogame version for a few years, so most things still feel new to me, but I have seen this: it seems with each new pack, Stage 2s are almost obsolete. The Outrage Dragons alone raised the bar and made it hard enoght to use them, and with the return of EX pokemon-all of which are Basics, to boot-things areonly going to get worse. I can't help they keep underpowering them too-the hghest HP stage 2 I could think of had 160 hp. in comparison, highest basic is 180, and highest Stage 1 was 200. what is yur thoughts on this?
 
most stage 2s now a days have no purpose but to provide a poke power.

I think Magnezone and Blastoise is about the only stage 2s that provide you with attacks worth using.

I also think its something that needs to change, especially for the fact the only reason people run Vileplume and its line in a deck is for its effect, it never will see battle.
 
Honestly, it's hard to say. Many will tell you Stage 2's are dead, but I'm not entirely sure. Yes, basics are getting ridiculous. Reshiram and Zekrom, who can both do 120 damage fairly quickly due to fantastic energy acceleration with relatively little drawback, are incredibly powerful. Now with Eviolite they get more powerful (especially Zekrom), and then with EXs in the future, thing get even more crazy with 180 HP basics. Not only that, but we get Skyarrow Bridge (1 less retreat on basics) and Prism energy (Multi energy for basics).

I paint a dismal picture there, and yet Stage 2s are still competing. Magnezone is fantastic now, and for the foreseeable future. It's relatively unlimited damage output, built in draw, and synergy with energy acceleration and N make it a fantastic card. In fact, I'd go as far to say that without the overpowered basics, Magnezone would be beyond broken. It's still arguably the focus of the best deck in format at the moment, despite these basics.

There are also promising Stage 2s in the future, particularly Empoleon, and to a much lesser extent Gardevoir. So while yes, basics are incredibly powerful to the point of silliness, I don't think Stage 2's are dead or unplayable, and will continue to be playable for a while, especially if we begin to get some support for them, or some counters to basics/EXs. We will see.
 
It's definetely true that most stage 2's are only used for their poke-power. One exception being Magnezone, who not only has one of the best poké-powers in the game, but also one of the best attacks in the game.

It's kinda sad to see most stage 2's just sitting on the bench every game, but it's the reality of our format.

Anyway, they (I'm saying "they" because I'm not sure who's in charge of the ideas for the cards) need to stop making overpowered basics asap. We need better stage 2's, and less overpowered basics.
 
I don't think it's that Stage 2 pokemon recently are bad, since we have a fair amount of decent stage 2's (Magnezone, Gothitelle, Samurott, Typhlosion, etc.). I just think basics are way too overpowered lately especially in the coming sets. These EX Pokemon have ridiculous hit points and attacks, can abuse eviolite, are creating a special energy just for basics (Prism Energy), have a new stadium catering to them (Sky Arrow Bridge), etc.

I really think we need some new cards that encourage evolutions though. At least back in the original ex days, a lot of trainers/supporters/stadiums would exclude ex pokemon from the t/s/s's effects and couldn't be searched out as easily. But in our current format I could potentially search out 3 or 4 of these new Pokemon EX per turn (collector + communication).

But I will say this, it's nice to finally have legendary pokemon cards that aren't total garbage.
 
Everything you guys said on this thread are the main reasons why most of my friends (but not all of them) have gotten out of the Pokemon TCG. Pokemon Catcher isn't the main culprit here but it's existence in this format was made worse solely on the 1st Turn B/W Rules, and not only is it making it harder for Stage 2's to be utilized better, but it's also the power creep of Legendary Basics in this format.

I don't think the game itself has gotten to a point where it's unfun for me, infact I still have fun playing the Pokemon TCG even though Durant is a frustrating deck to beat. But I would really love to see a return to more competitive Stage 2's in this format like it was back in DP-On and MD-On. I will say that DP-On was a more diverse format than MD-On but even still we had more diversity in deck choices back then.
 
Broken Pokemon EX said:
I really think we need some new cards that encourage evolutions though. At least back in the original ex days, a lot of trainers/supporters/stadiums would exclude ex pokemon from the t/s/s's effects and couldn't be searched out as easily. But in our current format I could potentially search out 3 or 4 of these new Pokemon EX per turn (collector + communication).
Click to expand...

My personal theory (completely unsupported) is that Collector will be reprinted with a line excluding EX cards. That would mean we still would have ways of searching them out by Trainers (Dual Ball, Great Ball, Level Ball, Ultra Ball, Communication), but we wouldn't have any supporters other than Twins that could get them. Trainer Lock would be much more valuable, since your opponent would have to just draw into their EX Pokemon. I'd like it even more if they'd reprint Rosie's with a line excluding EX cards, but I don't think they will.

Plus, that would let me use my shiny new Player Rewards Collectors for longer. :thumb:
 
Poke Trainer J said:
I don't think the game itself has gotten to a point where it's unfun for me, infact I still have fun playing the Pokemon TCG even though Durant is a frustrating deck to beat..
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Durant may be frustrating, but I always get a fun sense of relief when I actually do beat it. Like I beat the clock on a time bomb, or something.
 
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Maverick Nate said:
Durant may be frustrating, but I always get a fun sense of relief when I actually do beat it. Like I beat the clock on a time bomb, or something.
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Anytime you can manage to beat a durant deck you should feel a sense of accomplishment, a good durant build is very tough to overcome. And the deck will become more and more popular as playres beging to understand just how good of a deck it is. I think it will be a popular play at states this year.
 
Stage 2's are only good for their powers these days. They'll often have 3+ retreat and high cost for attack. It's easy to see why people would ditch them in order to use Zekrom or Mewtwo Ex. The only one I'm looking forward to is Gardevoir in NDE.
 
I'm thinking the new Gardevoir will be just like how all the other Stage 2's are being used in the current format, bench sitters solely for their Abilities only as Magnezone is the only exception cause it has a really good attack that's boosted by energy acceleration. While Gardevoir is sitting on the sidelines, Mewtwo EX will be hitting harder, make no mistake about it.

I'm starting to miss DP-On already, too bad PUSA and TPCi only care about money in this game nowadays. They have this mindset that competitive Stage 2's promote early game donks that end games too fast when that is clearly the opposite, Machamp SF was used because he was an effective counter to SP Pokemon last format.

Nowadays we don't have a Pokemon like Machamp SF that can counter against the Big Basics in our current format whether it be a Stage 1 or Stage 2. They want Pokemon to be less about evolving, more de-evolving, and more Legendaries. Too many Legendaries I might add. Maybe try to make Legendary Basics harder to get out than Regular Basics then we probably wouldn't be having this problem right now.
 
Card escalation: #3 on my list of reasons why I don't regret quitting Yu-Gi-Oh

fawfulmark2 said:
Stage 2s are almost obsolete.
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Well, when they changed Rare Candy to not work on the turn the basic is played, AND introduced Pokemon Catcher, it would seem so. I must say that this doesn't really bother me, since there are two stage 2s in the game that will force you into a loss just by your opponent bringing them out (Vileplume and Reuniclus).

180 HP basic is madness. However, this is a good game and, even if it *is* a problem we'll endure it somehow.
 
Basics being big (or rather legendary Pokemon being big) always struck me as the selling point of BW. It's more of a phase for the game than anything else. Small fast basics were the signature of the Platinum block, Speed was DPs, and big stage 2 were the ex series'. It'll get replaced eventually. (Probably in a few years) I never thought poorly of it because when you don't need to focus so much on your main attacker's line you can focus on other aspects of deck building.

In any case I think we'll get a response to the rise of big basics (especially EXs) within the next year since Collector will be rotating. Whatever they print to replace Collector (I'm sure it'll come...eventually) might have an HP cap, or other limitations that limit EXs (and maybe the dragons) when Collector is rotated.
 
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fawfulmark2 said:
i recently returned to Pokes after dabbling in the Videogame version for a few years, so most things still feel new to me, but I have seen this: it seems with each new pack, Stage 2s are almost obsolete. The Outrage Dragons alone raised the bar and made it hard enoght to use them, and with the return of EX pokemon-all of which are Basics, to boot-things areonly going to get worse. I can't help they keep underpowering them too-the hghest HP stage 2 I could think of had 160 hp. in comparison, highest basic is 180, and highest Stage 1 was 200. what is yur thoughts on this?
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Decks utilizing a Stage 2 Pokemon
  • Magnezone / Eelektrik
  • Chandelure
  • Ross Variants
  • Reshiram / Typhlosion

Decks not utilizing a Stage 2 Pokemon
  • ZPST
  • Cobalion / Kyurem / Electrode
  • 6 Corners
  • Lanturn / Eelektrik
  • Donphan and Dragons
  • Durant

Decks utilizing all Basics
  • ZPST
  • 6 corners
  • Durant

We're weaning out of an SP format. We're in a far better position than then, when the only competitive Stage 2 deck was Vilegar. We've got a far healthier format, and I would reckon that with Noble Victories we'll be looking at even better formats.

Will the EX's have much higher HP's, yes, but remember that they also give up two prize cards. Stage 2s are notable in that they incredibly flexible, useful and fairly powerful attacks and capabilities for the cost of one prize card and setup. Basics such as Zekrom and Reshiram are nice and all, but they're not effective attackers by themselves (which is why decks like Donphan and dragons are not dominating the metagame). We're not seeing a bigger focus on basics as a central theme of the deck - I would argue there is no central player to the current metagame. Rather, it's an intertwining that relies on both the Stage 2 cards as well as basics.

Are the basics in the current format stronger than normal basics before? I would argue no. Basics such as Zekrom and Reshiram are quite powerful, but they're nowhere near the potency level of the SP Luxray GL and Garchomp C eras. "Well, jjkkl", people may ask, "can't we just rotate the sets and start with newer, weaker basics?"

Theoretically, yes, but we also have to remind ourselves of something equal potent as Basics - powerful Stage 1s. When you have Donphan Prime which can do the same damage output (roughly) as Kingdra from Legends Awakened, or Yanmega which can attack for free, the Stage 1s become the new litmus test of effective players. So, how can we deal with that? Stage 2's?

Maybe. Stage 1's will get set up a lot easier than Stage 2's, because there's less investment into the decks themselves. Hence, Basics get introduced with large amounts of HP, good attacks and flexibility. They, in essence, become regulators against the format. Are they big, vicious basics? Of course, yeah, but for each basic you see, you see a whole slew of other basics that aren't used. It's not that there's more focus on basics, but rather there is more focus on specific basics.

Now, this entire rant aside (since it clearly is), no, I don't think that Stage 2's are declining in importance. We're still getting some very interesting and likely crucial Stage 2's within the next few sets, such as Gardevoir, Venusaur, and I'm certain that decks such as Seismitoad will become a reality once Wigglytuff comes in the future (possible 180 for double colorless, putting most EX's in OHKO range). There are still good decks out there that utilize Stage 2's to a large extent, and Stage 2's still have the ability to stand on their own much better than Basics.

Of course, this is coming from the guy who plays Cobalion / Kyurem / Electrode, so take what you will.
 
I dunno, at the rate of power creep coming in from some of the upcoming Basics, this is gonna look like SP sort of if you consider all Basic decks. Honestly, unless the Rare Candy ruling gets un-nerfed or they bring back something like BTS, I don't think Stage 2 decks can compete without having their Basic forms getting beaten over by some 180 HP monstrosities before they have the chance to do squat...if anything, Stage 2s are just being marginalized further into support roles; you play them only to gain access to some Ability that helps the deck, not because they themselves are the focus of a deck like before. Granted, there will always be exceptions, but that's what I'm seeing as the general trend anyways. If you consider 2 Pokemon whose attacks deal the same amount of damage for the same cost, why run a "regular" 130 HP Stage 2 that takes twice the time to get out through searching and evolving over a Basic (be it normal or EX) that you can hunt out with almost anything and start using right away? Which could have the same HP or more?
 
jjkkl said:
Decks utilizing a Stage 2 Pokemon
  • Magnezone / Eelektrik
  • Chandelure
  • Ross Variants
  • Reshiram / Typhlosion
Click to expand...

Only 4 Competitive Stage 2 decks in HGSS-On currently? Yeah this isn't right.

jjkkl said:
Now, this entire rant aside (since it clearly is), no, I don't think that Stage 2's are declining in importance. We're still getting some very interesting and likely crucial Stage 2's within the next few sets, such as Gardevoir, Venusaur, and I'm certain that decks such as Seismitoad will become a reality once Wigglytuff comes in the future (possible 180 for double colorless, putting most EX's in OHKO range). There are still good decks out there that utilize Stage 2's to a large extent, and Stage 2's still have the ability to stand on their own much better than Basics.
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About Gardevoir, Mind Shock isn't that terrible of an attack. 60 damage for an attack cost of :psychic::psychic::colorless::colorless: and can't be effected by Weakness or Resistance? Add with the Ability that makes the attack itself cost :psychic::colorless::colorless: or just :psychic::psychic: which increases it's flexibility quite a bit and anything with a :psychic: Weakness from attacks by Gardevoir will get hit for 120 damage. It has a retreat cost of 2 which makes it a great partner with Dodrio. I can already see the deck now:

Pokemon (19)

4 Mewtwo EX
3-2-3 Gardevoir ND
2-2 Dodrio UD
2 Bellsprout TR
1 Cleffa

Venusaur on the other hand, DCE allows it to attack for 3 energy attachments for 70 and Poison trigger unless we get something in the current format that's like Sceptile GE where it made all :grass: attachments count as 2 units of energy instead of just 1 (Gardevoir is filling that role instead). I mean Floral Scent is an amazing Ability that allows you to search your deck for ANY Pokemon out of your deck and puts it in your hand however what's really hurting Venusaur from being a competitive attacking Stage 2 in this format? Reshiphlosion (Reshiram/Typhlosion) that's what. Oh and you can forget about using Shaymin EX with Electrode Prime cause with the current format as it is you're setting yourself up more for a game loss.
 
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While Chandelure, Reuniclus, and Vileplume are played, Magnezone Prime is actually a BCIF contender. Stage 2s are far from dead.
 
Well, all those other stage 2 Pokemon are only playable because of Vileplume. I do think that zone is the best card in the format.
 
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