The People Behind the Pokemon

[KazamBolt]

Pokemon.com just published a very interesting article found here.

I don't have much time to elaborate fully, but I wanted to draw attention to this:

P.Com: There are so many Pokémon now, as well as so many different ways to battle, such as Triple Battles and Rotation Battles, the testing to ensure gameplay balance must be incredibly difficult. How does gameplay testing work for these kinds of games, such as making sure no Pokémon or moves are too powerful?

Mr. Masuda: On the GAME FREAK staff, we have a group that is constantly examining each Pokémon and figuring out what kind of parameters they would have. They’re focusing on the fine details of each Pokémon. This group is constantly battling to test out new moves and how they interact with each other. And their focus is to make sure everything is balanced.

But obviously you can’t predict everything. By going to events such as the World Championships and watching the players there, a lot of unexpected things come up. We pay attention to the trends of the competitive players and see what is strong, and work those ideas back into the next games later on. It makes live events very exciting for us to watch.

Why can't whoever creates the cards do this? And if they do, they need someone else to do it really.

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

It's nice to hear from game designers how they make their product. Like you said, card design recently has gone downhill, there's very little balance, the legendary Pokemon now resemble the ones in the video game more in terms of crazy power level. The problem is that in the video game the broken Pokemon (Legendaries like Mewtwo, Rayquaza etc.) are banned from official tournament play whereas they now dominate the TCG.

I hope once B&W series is over they get a new team of designers in that care about balanced game play, the cards keep getting nicer and nicer art and layouts but the mechanics suck. Perhaps we can see sets designed for Limited play too (which currently fails as a fun format at all, Prereleases are so boring now). The team that make Magic post articles on their website every week letting you in on their creative process, it's nice to know some card designers are making an effort at least -_-

 

[psychup2034]

It's nice to hear from game designers how they make their product. Like you said, card design recently has gone downhill, there's very little balance, the legendary Pokemon now resemble the ones in the video game more in terms of crazy power level. The problem is that in the video game the broken Pokemon (Legendaries like Mewtwo, Rayquaza etc.) are banned from official tournament play whereas they now dominate the TCG.

It's entirely possible (and probable) that the legendary Pokemon are extremely powerful by design. I mean, look at what Pokemon they are making EXs: they're all legendaries. In terms of balance, this format is very balanced. One deck isn't dominating the format, and even among the Tier 1 decks, there's a lot of flexibility in terms of how the decks can be played. Eelektrik is paired with a variety of attackers (Rayquaza, Rayquaza EX, Mewtwo EX, Registeel EX, Zekrom, Zekrom EX, Thundurus, Tornadus, Tornadus EX, Terrakion, etc.), while Darkrai EX has two distinct decks built around it. Darkrai EX/Hydreigon has a variety of attacking options (Sigilpyh, Mewtwo EX, Shaymin EX, Giratina EX, Reshiram EX, Tornadus EX). Darkrai EX/Big Basics can also be built in a couple of ways (I've seen Mewtwo EX, Terrakion, Registeel EX, Tornadus EX, and Hammertime).

Look at the tier 2 decks and their success. Ho-oh EX has won almost a dozen events, Fighting decks are having their fair share of victories (with and without Garbodor). Even rogue ideas like Empoleon/Accelgor are successful in the right metagame. There was a Zoroark deck that went 6-0,

You can never make everyone happy. When the legendaries were weak and unplayable, people were complaining that the legendaries were too weak. Now that they've listened to the players and made a format where there are at least 20 playable legendary Pokemon, people are complaining that there's too much of a focus on legendaries.

Using the fact that there's a plethora of strong legendaries in the format as a reason why the format is unhealthy is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, the format has a focus on basic attackers, but that by no means implies that the format is unhealthy. This format is as difficult to figure out (in terms of metagaming a tournament) as any we've had last year, and that to me is the sign of a healthy format.

I hope once B&W series is over they get a new team of designers in that care about balanced game play, the cards keep getting nicer and nicer art and layouts but the mechanics suck. Perhaps we can see sets designed for Limited play too (which currently fails as a fun format at all, Prereleases are so boring now). The team that make Magic post articles on their website every week letting you in on their creative process, it's nice to know some card designers are making an effort at least -_-

I hope that once the B&W series is over, they keep the same team of designers who have already designed a balanced format. The mechanics don't suck. They're not as good as they were in '05-'06, but it doesn't mean that the format is unbalanced.

Also, prereleases have always been boring ever since I turned 12 (11 years ago). You find prereleases boring because you're older (and have played in a lot). They're still exciting for their target audience: players just getting into the game. If you really want to get some interest out of you prerelease, do what I do and organize some mutant/cube drafts with your friends.

 

[ApachePrime]

Why can't whoever creates the cards do this? And if they do, they need someone else to do it really.

PCL is at Worlds every year. They are the group that design the cards. Why do they need someone else to do it? There's really only ever been on design mistake I've seen, and that was the absolutely broken nature of Gardevoir and Gallade. Since then they have not given a single evolutionary line so much attack power and card advantage.

Who's to say the things you THINK are problems aren't how the cards were designed?

 

[vaporeon]

With all the Pokemon I play, I dont see any testing they did. Each gen of pokemon they make, then end up being more powerful then the last. There needs to be a power balance in the games I think or you'll see the same Pokemon each time.

 

[psychup2034]

With all the Pokemon I play, I dont see any testing they did. Each gen of pokemon they make, then end up being more powerful then the last. There needs to be a power balance in the games I think or you'll see the same Pokemon each time.

Another irrelevant argument. As long as the power is balanced amongst the cards within a format, the format is balanced. Comparing today's cards to different generations and calling the game "unbalanced" is ridiculous. The other generations are not in format.

 

[baby mario]

PCL is at Worlds every year. They are the group that design the cards. Why do they need someone else to do it? There's really only ever been on design mistake I've seen, and that was the absolutely broken nature of Gardevoir and Gallade. Since then they have not given a single evolutionary line so much attack power and card advantage.

Who's to say the things you THINK are problems aren't how the cards were designed?

PCL haven't been at Worlds for the last few years. At least the guys in PCL labcoats haven't been. Either PCL isn't around any more or they are keeping an extremely low profile these days.

And yes, whoever is designing the cards is doing a very good job of designing the game that they want.

It's extremely arrogant to cry incompetent design, just because they aren't doing what you think they should.

 

[ShuckleLVX]

psychup and I argue often, violently at times, so the fact that we agree on something probably means there's a lot more truth to it than you're letting on - the card designers are doing a great job right now. Lots of different decks doing well, and even amongst those good decks, there is variety in the cards present. Eels is doing well, with Rayquaza, Zekrom, and more. Darkrai is doing well, with Hydreigon, Terrakion, even Kyogre (that was a fun deck to watch). A half dozen other decks are making the top tables and walking away with cups - Ho-oh, Garbador (oh hey, effective variants there too), Corners, and even Accelegor. This format is stellar. While I would love to have another format with strong S2's that really define the meta, there's nothing wrong with this one, and I applaud PCL for their work.

 

[vaporeon]

Another irrelevant argument. As long as the power is balanced amongst the cards within a format, the format is balanced. Comparing today's cards to different generations and calling the game "unbalanced" is ridiculous. The other generations are not in format.

I was talking about the video games.

 

[psychup2034]

I was talking about the video games.

Gen 5 is not more powerful than Gen 4 in the VG...

 

[Benzo]

I am about to say something a lot of people do not care to hear, or will take it the wrong way. Not my intentions, but I see the comparison being made in regards to the cards and the video game.

The cards are crafted after the video game. Not designed to 100% mimic the actual video games. It is a cross over way to enjoy playing Pokemon but without electronics is all.

The video game has many mechanics involved, as does the card game. But the card game is limited to design by the restrictions of not being "built" as easily as "building" a Pokemon for the video game. If your wanting to use say for example a Charizard in the VGC to battle, you can breed on in any manner to fit the need of you imediate team stratagy. The video game has a severe advantage in that you have access to all the Pokemon in the game that you achieved in getting catching them all. The video game does have banned Pokemon and moves for tournaments, while the card game has a rotation of sets yearly that keeps the game fresh. The video game has little to keep it fresh in regards to restrictions and moves, along with usable Pokemon for battles. If a player wanted to, he could use Salamance as long as it is not banned for "programmed reasons"- but it could be a full year before you see a Salamance card created.

Here is where the comparison sort of "fails", but like I said I see the comparison being made to draw a point to generate discussion and get more of an idea behind the design of the cards.

It is one thing to blend in a new set to the existing sets of cards that are legal play for events, but another to look so far ahead to see if a card that is created will automatically be over powered since the paramintors of the electronic form has a designed Base Stat implement that makes it easy to predict the strength of a card. But this is how I see it.

They may or may not play test cards for future sets, but I do not think they plan from the past sets that are out currently, but build to work out the sets for future release to change that shift into new game play, verses having to work with a solid electronic pokemon that is pre-set by the programmers.

Again, sorry to speak up on this if it is pointless by a card player's eyes (although I do play the card game occaisionally)- it is just a bit of a reach to make this comparison so easily with the different factors as to what it is you have to work with.

I think that the same comparison could be flipped the other way around, as far as this comparison goes- why rewind the clock to adjust the actual Base Stats of a Pokemon in the video game in order to meet the current play field to adjust the game play to be "balanced" when there is no rotation made for the video game as to the Pokemon that are available for competitive play?

About the only thing that changes the most in the VGC scene is the game cartridges themselves that are allowed for use. A gamer can only have access to the Pokemon caught or traded. The card game does mimic this, trade/buy- but it is limited to the balance of what area the card game could use a boost in: Psychic cards lack support in (insert set name here), so a future set could be focused more on getting that balance back.

So- both the TCG and the VGC have their perks and restrictions, and I do think that the creators on both the VG and the TCG do work hard to keep the games balanced and designed to keep things fresh, even if it does have a little bit of restriction or rotation/rule changes to keep things going.

Just my thoughts is all

 

[vaporeon]

Gen 5 is not more powerful than Gen 4 in the VG...

You care to explain why that is? Since the days of R/B/Y, Pokemon have had simple typing with the most overpowered Pokemon being Chansey and Mewtwo because of how Barrier worked. Rules were then put into place to balance them them out.

4th gen could be considered a Godsend to the Pokemon games. D/P/Pt introduced the special and physical attack types. Were were not use to that because of how we used Pokemon in the last game. Alakazam could not be a elemental puncher anymore because those attacks are physical. Flying type Pokemon were unusable pre D/P/Pt. Some other Pokemon were given life in the new system. Pokemon also had more powerful abilities, like Garchomp's sandveil.

Pokemon each gen also got access to better moves. Why not give Pidgeot better base stats? Why not give Flareon Flare Blitz? Flying Pokemon need Close Combat and Cresselia need Recover. Each game released, I look forward to a change in how Pokemon are built. All they do is allow them to use newer moves and most of the older Pokemon get the same moves they could learn for the past Pokemon games by move tutors.

4th gen may be good to you because of they change of the system but 5th gen's Pokemon are stronger and faster and don't mix well with the last few Pokemon.

 

[psychup2034]

You care to explain why that is?

BW Tier list

Also look at the T4 teams from worlds this year for 2 vs 2.

---------- Post added 10/01/2012 at 09:56 PM ----------

Pokemon each gen also got access to better moves. Why not give Pidgeot better base stats? Why not give Flareon Flare Blitz? Flying Pokemon need Close Combat and Cresselia need Recover. Each game released, I look forward to a change in how Pokemon are built. All they do is allow them to use newer moves and most of the older Pokemon get the same moves they could learn for the past Pokemon games by move tutors.

Why don't you point out how they made Vaporeon OU again by giving it Water Absorb and Wish? Why selectively point out Pokemon that did not improve (Flareon and Pidgeot) while deliberately ignore the Pokemon that got better? Because you're trying to make a point contrary to reality.

More examples from Generation 1:

• Cloyster gets Shell Smash.
• Dragonite gets Multiscale.
• Venusaur gets Chlorophyll.
• Ninetails gets Drought.

 

[Prodigiosus]

...but 5th gen's Pokemon are stronger and faster and don't mix well with the last few Pokemon.

5th Gen. Pokemon are not nearly as strong as you make them out to be. Most people at the World Championships this year had two Pokemon from Gen. 5 at most... the only ones I saw were Hydreigon, Terrakion, Landorus, and Thundurus...

Common Pokemon used on winning teams at Worlds this year:

Hitmontop
Cresselia
Metagross
Swampert
Abomasnow
Tyranitar
Garchomp
Scizor
Latios
Politoed
Ludicolo
Kingdra
Salamence
Rotom-W

Thundurus
Hydreigon
Terrakion
Landorus

Now how many of those were Gen 5...?

To add on...

Pokemon each gen also got access to better moves. Why not give Pidgeot better base stats? Why not give Flareon Flare Blitz? Flying Pokemon need Close Combat and Cresselia need Recover. Each game released, I look forward to a change in how Pokemon are built. All they do is allow them to use newer moves and most of the older Pokemon get the same moves they could learn for the past Pokemon games by move tutors.

Some Pokemon are created stronger than others, which is obvious logic. Pidgeot unfortunately receives the short end of the stick. Why does he need better stats anyway? There are better Flying-type alternatives. Why do Flying Pokemon need Close Combat? There isn't even any logic in that. Since when did Flying Pokemon like Zapdos have fists? And Cresselia gets Moonlight and Rest, which is more than enough for recovery options. With every game, Pokemon gives a lot of Pokemon new moves and abilities, especially with Dream World out at all. They also often learn new moves, most notably via move tutor, which can often completely change the metagame...

 

[vaporeon]

@ Prodigiosus

Staraptor gets Close Combat. I say they needed it because of how physical birds are by nature. Also not trying to disprove any of your points but people do use Pokemon they know. I'll use a Latios over and 5th gen Pokemon any day.

BW Tier list

Also look at the T4 teams from worlds this year for 2 vs 2.

---------- Post added 10/01/2012 at 09:56 PM ----------



Why don't you point out how they made Vaporeon OU again by giving it Water Absorb and Wish? Why selectively point out Pokemon that did not improve (Flareon and Pidgeot) while deliberately ignore the Pokemon that got better? Because you're trying to make a point contrary to reality.

More examples from Generation 1:

• Cloyster gets Shell Smash.
• Dragonite gets Multiscale.
• Venusaur gets Chlorophyll.
• Ninetails gets Drought.

I focus on those who did not improve with the hopes that one day they will. Vaporeon has always been OU so there was no need to point that out and every eeveelution learns wish. I could also list a lot Pokemon that got better. The whole point was to say that testing may not happen as well as they want it to. Shell Smash is a broken boost move, like most of them in the new gen. You have no idea how many shell smash sweeps I've seen.

Things need to be tested to the fullest extent before releasing. DS games don't have DLC to update or fix glitches like the ones in the game now.

 

[psychup2034]

I focus on those who did not improve with the hopes that one day they will. Vaporeon has always been OU so there was no need to point that out and every eeveelution learns wish. I could also list a lot Pokemon that got better. The whole point was to say that testing may not happen as well as they want it to. Shell Smash is a broken boost move, like most of them in the new gen. You have no idea how many shell smash sweeps I've seen.

Things need to be tested to the fullest extent before releasing. DS games don't have DLC to update or fix glitches like the ones in the game now.

*Sigh*

How long have you been playing the video game? Vaporeon was not OU in Gens 1, and was not in OU for GSC until recently when people went back to the format. The season I was runner up in the Kabuto Kup (Netbattle's annual tour), Vaporeon wasn't seen in competitive OU play at all. The Reflect/Haze strategy was seen as a gimmick (unlike today) and Suicune was the preferred bulky water.

Shell Smash sweeps are as common as Tobybro/Chansey or Tauros sweeps in Gen 1, Curselax sweeps in Gen 2, Dragon Dance sweeps in Gen 3, etc.

Your definition of "broken" isn't exactly aligned with what the general community finds to be "broken."

 

[Prodigiosus]

@ Prodigiosus

Also not trying to disprove any of your points but people do use Pokemon they know. I'll use a Latios over and 5th gen Pokemon any day.

lol...

I'll use a Latios over any Gen. 5 Pokemon any day not because "I know it" but because it's stronger than most Gen. 5 Pokemon. The best VGC players don't choose Pokemon they just "like" or "know," they choose them because it's what they believe to be the best fit to their team. This argument is pointless.

 

[FirestormXVI]

vaporeon, none of what you're talking about seems relevant in competitive play. Game Freak is not going to try and balance the game for fan-made rulesets and shouldn't be expected to. They have two modes of play to balance for above all else and they've done a fairly good job with both.

The first of these is the single player campaign. Pokemon received earlier in the game should be considered more common and somewhat weaker then progress more as you get further in the game. This is for in-game use. They want to encourage players to try out a variety of Pokemon. This is why you get Pokemon like Hoothoot early on and Larvitar near the end of the game. There are obviously exceptions, but this is true for the most part.

The other important thing to balance is competitive play. We saw a great variety of teams this year. Exeggutor, Heracross, Marowak, Choice Specs Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Raikou, Mamoswine, Crobat, Hariyama, Sableye... all sorts of Pokémon who were on different teams providing different functions but not commonly seen.

There are more than 600 Pokémon in the game. It is impossible for all of them to be balanced for competitive play, but they've done a darn good job getting it as good as it can be.

 

[yoshi1001]

In regards to design flaws, cards can be considered flawed for a number of reasons. For example, many early cards can be considered flawed because they led to ambiguous or contradictory ruling situations.

 

[bullados]

In regards to design flaws, cards can be considered flawed for a number of reasons. For example, many early cards can be considered flawed because they led to ambiguous or contradictory ruling situations.

How many pages of Ditto vs. Brock's Ninetales rulings are there in the Compendium again?