The splashable water tech that counters Donphan and Reshiram (HGSS-on)

[vaporeon]

It's like this. Yanmega Prime is not a hard counter for Donphan Prime but a valid one, same as Lanturn Prime. I'm playing a Donphan deck and Yanmega Prime does not hurt me too much.

Lets make a list of pros and cons

Yanmega Prime

Pros

3HKO by Donphan Prime
Snipes for 40
Can attack for 0 energy
Free Retreat cost

Cons

3HKO Donphan Prime
Dependend on opponents hand size
Forces you to run heavy Judge and Copycat lines
Space for 6-8 other cards
Easy target for Lanturn Prime

While it's pretty balanced, during my testing, your don't always have the cards to get a Yanmega Prime and could be wasting a judge. You could also be wasting your hand to get a 40 damage snipe or 50 on Donphan so you will be forced to play your hand, if playing Zekrom, you'll be forced to play that pachi and 1 lightning energy in your hand.

It's not a hard counter but requires you to rebuild your deck to run it.

Lanturn Prime

Pros

Can 1HKO Donphan Prime and Yanmega Prime just with the energy on the card.
Attacks for 1 lightning energy and a DCE
Breaks the Reshiram match with Zekrom allowing Zekrom with Pluspower or Lanturn prime to revenge kill. In this event, they might not be able to recover.
Running a 2-2 or 3-3 line can help 3 other matchups
Can be ether water or Lightning type
No Power Spray or Mespirt

Cons

2x weakness to Donphan Prime allowing another Donphan Prime to Revenge kill.
Takes 3 energy to powerup, making it hard to run in other decks. 2 with DCE
Forces non lightning decks to run Rainbow Energy.
Searching out the Rainbow Energy and DCE forcing you to play them when you get them.
Remove Lost

Playing Lanturn Prime helps with a few matchups. The 110 HP is okay but hurts in a format that can hit for 100 -120 damage. Cinccino will need the Pluspower to kill. Remove Lost is not seeing play now but if Lanturn Prime becomes more mainstream, decks with Rainbow Energy and DCE will not be able to run Lanturn Prime as it will be a high risk play.

Suicune & Entei LEGEND

Pros

It's both Water and Fire
MASSIVE 160 HP makes it hard to revenge kill
1HKO both Reshiram and Serperior
Burns
Can 1HKO Cinccino and Zororak due to said burn
Can snipe for 100
Attacks for 1 Water energy and a DCE
Does not need any added support to search out
Breaks the Reshiram mirror
Highly playable in Reshiboar. Still helps with the mirror.

Cons

It's a Legend Card and searching out the 2 halves can be hard
NO good Pokemon search. You'll be relying on a hand full of Pokemon, Pokemon Communication and or Junk Arm, forcing you to run a 2-2 line.
Prizes
Professor Juniper
No non supporter Pokemon recovery
2 Prize card draw back
Zekrom and Lanturn Prime
Non water decks will have a hard time attacking without the fire or Rainbow Energy
Searching out the Rainbow Energy or DCE
Remove Lost

Again, it's a good play if you run heavy Pokemon lines and 4 Junk Arms and Pokemon Communication. That will be your only search conditions without changing your deck too much. If any get prized, you could be in a tough spot because there is no Azelf. You might also be torn from running Professor Juniper because if you discard it and you need it, you might not be able to get it back. If you hope, hope your Flower Shop Lady is not prized.

It's not all bad running the SEL though. NO card can 1HKO other then and powerful lightning attack and powerful Water attacker. Lanturn Prime would need a Pluspower or the forth energy to kill it. In any event, you should only play this card when you need it.

This is all based on my testing though.

 

[Gengar16]

It's like this. Yanmega Prime is not a hard counter for Donphan Prime but a valid one, same as Lanturn Prime. I'm playing a Donphan deck and Yanmega Prime does not hurt me too much.

Lets make a list of pros and cons

Yanmega

Pros

3HKO by Donphan Prime
Snipes for 40
Can attack for 0 energy
Free Retreat cost

Cons

3HKO Donphan Prime
Dependend on opponents hand size
Forces you to run heavy Judge and Copycat lines
Space for 6-8 other cards
Easy target for Lanturn Prime

While it's pretty balanced, during my testing, your don't always have the cards to get a Yanmega Prime and could be wasting a judge. You could also be wasting your hand to get a 40 damage snipe or 50 on Donphan so you will be forced to play your hand, if playing Zekrom, you'll be forced to play that pachi and 1 lightning energy in your hand.

It's not a hard counter but requires you to rebuild your deck to run it.

Lanturn Prime

Pros

Can 1HKO Donphan Prime and Yanmega Prime just wit hthe energy on the card.
Attacks for 1 lightning energy and a DCE
Breaks the Reshiram match with Zekrom allowing Zekrom with Pluspower or Lanturn prime to revenge kill. In this event, they might not be able to recover.
Running a 2-2 or 3-3 line can help 3 other matchups
Can be ether water or Lightning type
No Power Spray or Mespirt

Cons

2x weakness to Donpahn Prime allowing another Donphan Prime to Revenge kill.
Takes 3 energy to powerup, ,aking it hard to run in other decks. 2 with DCE
Forces non lightning decks to run Rainbow Energy.
Searching out the Rainbow Energy and DCE forcing you to play them when you get them.
Remove Lost

Playing Lanturn Prime helps with a few matchups. The 110 HP is okay but hurts in a format that can hit for 100 -120 damage. Cinccino will need the Pluspower to kill. Remove Lost is not seeing play now but if Lanturn Prime becomes more mainstream, decks with Rainbow Energy and DCE will not be able to run Lanturn Prime as it will be a high risk play.

Suicune & Entei LEGEND

Pros

It's both Water and Fire
MASSIVE 160 HP makes it hard to revinge kill
1HKO both Reshiram and Serperior
Burns
Can 1HKO Cinccino and Zororak due to said burn
Can snipe for 100
Attacks for 1 Water energy and a DCE
Does not need any added support to search out
Breaks the Reshiram mirror

Cons

It's a Legend Card and searching out the 2 halves can be hard
NO good Pokemon search. You'll be relying on a hand full of Pokemon, Pokemon Communication and or Junk Arm, forcing you to run a 2-2 line.
Prizes
Professor Juniper
No non supporter Pokemon recovery
2 Prize card draw back
Zekrom and Lanturn Prime
Non water decks will have a hard time attacking without the fire or Rainbow Energy
Searching out the Rainbow Energy or DCE
Remove Lost

Again, it's a good play if you run heavy Pokemon lines and 4 Junk Arms and Pokemon Communication. That will be your only search conditions without changing your deck too much. If any get prized, you could be in a tough spot because there is not Azelf. You might also be torn from running Professor Juniper because if you discard it and you need it, you might not be able to get it back. If you hope, hope your Flower Shop Lady is not prized.

It's not all bad running the SEL though. NO card can 1HKO other then and powerful lightning attack and powerful Water attacker. Lanturn Prime would need a Pluspower of the forth energy to kill it. In any event, you should only play this card when you need it.

This is all based on my testing though.

SEL is VERY Splashable in Reshiboar agaisnt the Water/Donpha/Mirorr Matchup.
Lanturn Prime is kinda because you have to make room for lighting energy (why run Rainbow) and gets Revenge KO'ed by Donphan
RDL is also another viable option, and still have to make room for lighting but you do get to take 2 more prizes.

 

[Ninjask88]

Why is everyone suddenly randomly teching Legends into decks?

The rotation/HGSS-on format's effect on the playability of Legends is marginal at best. I don't see them as any more viable now than they were previously.

Because with Legend Box you can power it in one turn with energy!!! Oh wait... that didn't work this format, one if not THEE fastest format there ever was.

 

[vaporeon]

SEL is VERY Splashable in Reshiboar agaisnt the Water/Donpha/Mirorr Matchup.
Lanturn Prime is kinda because you have to make room for lighting energy (why run Rainbow) and gets Revenge KO'ed by Donphan
RDL is also another viable option, and still have to make room for lighting but you do get to take 2 more prizes.

I can't believe I forgot to put that in there. I though I did. The reason for Rainbow energy is so you don't take away from your main energy line. I tried with the Thunder and or Fire energy and it does not work. Unless you play Zekrom or Reshiram, attacking with SEL or Lanturn Prime becomes very hard unless you have the Rainbow energy.

 

[Gengar16]

I can't believe I forgot to put that in there. I though I did. The reason for Rainbow energy is so you don't take away from your main energy line. I tried with the Thunder and or Fire energy and it does not work. Unless you play Zekrom or Reshiram, attacking with SEL or Lanturn Prime becomes very hard unless you have the Rainbow energy.

That's whyits good to tech in a energy exchanger and all decks SHOULD run Twins this rotation on so you can grab one with that. But good ideas Vaporean :thumb:

 

[vaporeon]

That's whyits good to tech in a energy exchanger and all decks SHOULD run Twins this rotation on so you can grab one with that. But good ideas Vaporean :thumb:

Thanks for that. I hope I gave everyone some credible information here based on this new meta. A lot of work when into that list.

 

[TheKing]

That's whyits good to tech in a energy exchanger and all decks SHOULD run Twins this rotation on so you can grab one with that. But good ideas Vaporean :thumb:

Why are you using twins to grab the energy exchanger when you can just grab the energy?

 

[Mazu]

Why are you using twins to grab the energy exchanger when you can just grab the energy?

I think he meant you can use both energy exchanger and twins to grab it (meaning a higher chance of getting it), but it could have been formulated better.

 

[Rambo]

Luckily for us we don't have to worry about a HS-on format til next season,

But next format there's probably going to be some cards that counter it nicely.

 

[Gengar16]

I think he meant you can use both energy exchanger and twins to grab it (meaning a higher chance of getting it), but it could have been formulated better.

Yeah, Sorry thats what I meant.
You can use Twins to grab the Lighting Energy or run some Energy Exchanger to Change for a lighting.
Thanks for clarification, should of said it better

 

[eriknance]

PCL really needs to print a solid Water stage 1 that does like WCC for 70 or something...

Oh, you mean like the Basculin that didn't get released in Black and White for some reason?

Basculin – Water – HP80
Basic Pokemon

[C] Flail: Does 10 damage times the number of damage counters on this Pokemon.
[W][C][C] Desperation: 80 damage. Flip 2 coins, if both are tails, this Pokemon also takes 80 damage.

Weakness: Lightning (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1

Sweet Donphan tech, pretty splashable... see ya someday decent card!

 

[vaporeon]

Oh, you mean like the Basculin that didn't get released in Black and White for some reason?

Basculin – Water – HP80
Basic Pokemon

[C] Flail: Does 10 damage times the number of damage counters on this Pokemon.
[W][C][C] Desperation: 80 damage. Flip 2 coins, if both are tails, this Pokemon also takes 80 damage.

Weakness: Lightning (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 1

Sweet Donphan tech, pretty splashable... see ya someday decent card!

It's a pretty sweet card. Not sure people would want to risk your opponent getting a free prize.

 

[xCiegex]

What about Golduck from Triumphant?

Powerful splash needs 1 water and 1 colorless, and does plus 10 for each water energy attached to him. He only has 90 hp which is kind of weak, but his ability lets your remove 2 damage counters from him for each water energy you attach. Plus he only has 1 retreat cost.

 

[Wood811]

Suicun Entei legend is the way to go. No doubt about it, I like the red gyarados idea haha

 

[Tagrineth]

Basculin isn't horrible but the 1/4 chance to suicide is pretty sad.

And Golduck is bad. It needs at least FOUR water energy in play to OHKO Donphan, which is much more than a "splash".

 

[Zard1111]

SEL counters straight donphan well in zekrom.

SEL doesn't make the donchamp matchup favourable in zekrom.

SEL hurts your consistency in zekrom.

That's basically all there is to this thread.

 

[Rambo]

I like the Basculin that never got released.

 

[cabd]

The Japanese promo simipour might be an option. Once we see how much damage it does, that is. But being able to move energy a la "tail code" is cool

 

[Raen]

For what it's worth, I actually really like SEL in ReshiBoar. It works brilliantly as a Donphan counter. I'm not so sure it'd work as well in anything else, though; I'm not a fan of running multiple energy types in an HGSS-on format.

 

[Mazu]

SEL counters straight donphan well in zekrom.

SEL doesn't make the donchamp matchup favourable in zekrom.

SEL hurts your consistency in zekrom.

That's basically all there is to this thread.

No, what? Who said anything about Zekrom? I talked about SEL as a general counter to Donphan and Reshiram, I didn't say it was a good tech for every deck out there. You just skip all the valid points and simplify the idea down to something along the lines of "this is very obvious and need not be discussed", which is wrong.

For what it's worth, I actually really like SEL in ReshiBoar. It works brilliantly as a Donphan counter. I'm not so sure it'd work as well in anything else, though; I'm not a fan of running multiple energy types in an HGSS-on format.

I agree, most likely it won't be compatible with anything not running fire. I tried it out in a MagneBoar deck (actually ReshiBoar holds up fine against Donphan as it is) and I found that any deck running 4 rare candy would be better off using Samurott (ability one). SEL is just too much hassle to get out, and Samurott holds up better anyways.

For this reason I don't think SEL will be as useful - the only job it does well gets done better by Samurott. It's sad really, because it looks like an awesome tech.. I just find it really hard to get into play when I need it.