Vegeta ss4
Iron Chef Leader
The thing is, the hotel literally did nothing.
Thieves caught on video at Worlds, TPCi does nothing
- Thread starter Meesie6x6
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Moss Factor
New Member
I think you're speaking from your personal perspective of someone deeply invested in this game: emotionally, financially, through personal relationships, through trips and scholarships, through skill developed -- it would frankly take a lot for you to walk away from that. Much more than one scumbag you have to bump into maybe twice a year.
But consider the perspective of the fringe player -- or better yet the kid who plays games with his friends and collects casually, but isn't involved with OP. Why would they ever decide to make the investments in such a game where thieves run rampant and the people running things look the other way and hide in technicalities they make up for themselves? How are we going to grow the game if that is our reputation?
First off, this thread has pretty definitively shown that the line isn't grey: it doesn't really exist. TPCi pretty much shoots from the hip (or, more forgivingly, evaluates issues on a case-by-case basis). So any kind of musings as to what their universal maxim should be on this is frankly irrelevant.
But if you must insist, I would say the fact that TPCi put Mees up in this hotel and effectively placed him into that situation creates a good "wall" to stop you from sliding too far down any slippery slope.
I would think the big difference is loud parties and 2AM energy drinks don't in danger your tournaments. The hotel should be responsible for providing a safe and peaceful area for its guests, while TPCI should be responsible for providing a safe family friendly tournament environment. I'm not saying ban/don't ban Gino, nor am I speaking towards his innoncent/guilt. However, what I am saying is this is absolutely your business and an investigation on your part is warrented.
ryanvergel
New Member
These are incidents of a different nature. The fundamental aspect of a suspension is that it removes a player who is disrupting other players, or the events they attend. A possibly bit too wild 18th birthday party, or teenagers hopped up on Red Bull isn't the kind of disruption that Gino and Jon bring. This is an entirely different kind of incident than the kind you are describing. I hope you see that, as many of the posters in this thread are making this distinction.
I am not so sure of that. I know this is a small sample size, but generally, I think one can gauge the opinion of many from these types of threads. Looking at the players who have articulated themselves in this thread, how would you come to the conclusion that the majority of players would prefer this current outcome of non-action? Are you saying the majority of players' opinions differ from the majority of players' opinions in this thread?
I think when you have this many responses indicating a distaste for not suspending these players, you would be acting irrationally to think that the majority of players want inaction in this KIND of issue. You proceed rationally by acting in accordance with the evidence at hand. Is the evidence at hand, the responses of players, not one that says THIS kind of issue, a THEFT kind of issue, should be handled by you, the governing body of OP, TPCi?
Yes, a hotel should handle a noise complaint, or other minor shenanigans. But that is one KIND of issue (like you say). What we have HERE is a DIFFERENT kind of issue. Once you see this distinction, you will understand what we are saying better.
When we cite precedent, we are NOT talking about hotel complaints or silly, trivial things. We are talking about your precedents of suspension, not your precedent of NOT suspending. Again, another distinction that you're not really seeing. Stealing at worlds has been a suspendable offense. YOU HAVE DONE THAT. The distinction that this took place 12 hours after the thefts that occurred years ago is arbitrary, and one you're using to skirt around responsibility for maintaining a safe and comfortable environment.
To everyone else- be calm, be cool, be rational. We can discuss this with reason, and argue our points. Let's not drip our argument in vinegar before we present it.
homeofmew
Active Member
There is difference between the two situations.
here's how I see it, they gave Mees a form statement to fill out and the tapes were pulled, ect ect.
the Hotel and the Authorities did as much as they could, but pokemon seems to not gets it's hands into it, maybe because the hotel didn't get them involved (?)
Other incidents of players getting banned via in the hotel have been because they were drinking/ vandalism to the hotel.
So yes, from past events of banning outside the event, it seems TPCI DOES care if the hotel complains about a player.
here's how I see it, they gave Mees a form statement to fill out and the tapes were pulled, ect ect.
the Hotel and the Authorities did as much as they could, but pokemon seems to not gets it's hands into it, maybe because the hotel didn't get them involved (?)
Other incidents of players getting banned via in the hotel have been because they were drinking/ vandalism to the hotel.
So yes, from past events of banning outside the event, it seems TPCI DOES care if the hotel complains about a player.
Vegeta ss4
Iron Chef Leader
Apologies if my posts have been bad in terms of rude. I am just fed up at this point, no matter how many points we make it is ALWAYS the same thing with TPCi.
Victory Bell
Member
What part of case-by-case basis do you people not understand. The story about the Spanish Pooper went viral while this has largely stayed within the community. That was a special case. By banning him they protected the integrity of their own brand. Here Pokemon can consider other factors.
Pokemon has set a good precedent by generally not getting involved in issues that happen between Pokemon players outside of their events. Pokemon players do some pretty scummy things to each other outside tournaments. This whole theft issue is one of those scummy things. What if something like this (or worse) happened at a player's home or at a hotel right after a Regional? In my opinion trying to get involved in disputes between players off a tournament site would be overstepping boundaries. Like I've said, Pokemon isn't a game free of criminals. Maybe they didn't commit crimes at Pokemon events but they are criminals none the less. Why do they deserve to keep playing this game if we think Gino and Jon deserve to be banned?
signofzeta
New Member
The hotel bell counter baggage area is kind of sketchy for a 4.5 star hotel. Usually some hotels leave people's baggage in a locked room, and the clerk gives you a number and when you want to retrieve said baggage, you have to give the number to the clerk, and the clerk will get it for you. Why not this one? Is it because they just don't have enough room?
After this fiasco, it's no wonder more people play Magic and Yugioh over Pokemon TCG. TPCi just totally destroyed their reputation.
Maybe I wasn't clear, after all the rage in my posts. I wasn't saying that it was Mees fault that this happened. I put full blame on TPCi mostly for not enacting the correct punishment to Gino. What I did say was that Mees can use this experience to find better ways to protect his stuff in the future so that an event similar to this doesn't happen again. The worst thing that could happen is for history to repeat itself, because nobody did anything to prevent that event from happening again. It's sort of common sense to add security to your belongings when you have your stuff stolen once before.
If such an event does happen again, there could be situations where it won't be any player in the tournament. It could be some outsider who has nothing to do with the tournament stealing the laptop. And then what? TPCi can't do anything about it, and neither can the local police, if the criminal crossed the border.
There is another issue with the hotel. Isn't there supposed to be a security guy watching the videos so that when someone does a crime, they catch them right in the act, and not hours later, when the criminal has escaped? Wasn't there a way to catch Gino at the airport before he got on the flight?
After this fiasco, it's no wonder more people play Magic and Yugioh over Pokemon TCG. TPCi just totally destroyed their reputation.
Maybe I wasn't clear, after all the rage in my posts. I wasn't saying that it was Mees fault that this happened. I put full blame on TPCi mostly for not enacting the correct punishment to Gino. What I did say was that Mees can use this experience to find better ways to protect his stuff in the future so that an event similar to this doesn't happen again. The worst thing that could happen is for history to repeat itself, because nobody did anything to prevent that event from happening again. It's sort of common sense to add security to your belongings when you have your stuff stolen once before.
If such an event does happen again, there could be situations where it won't be any player in the tournament. It could be some outsider who has nothing to do with the tournament stealing the laptop. And then what? TPCi can't do anything about it, and neither can the local police, if the criminal crossed the border.
There is another issue with the hotel. Isn't there supposed to be a security guy watching the videos so that when someone does a crime, they catch them right in the act, and not hours later, when the criminal has escaped? Wasn't there a way to catch Gino at the airport before he got on the flight?
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Course it is. SD Pokemon liked it.
homeofmew
Active Member
I looked at the picture and it did seem weird, usually hotels like that have a special area for this via most hotels Concierge services.
Also I heard YGO has higher theft.
Dragonitegirl07
New Member
Hello, just figured I'd toss in my two cents for this issue.
Stealing has always been a problem throughout the game's history, whether it be at a local level or a world championship level. Any time we've caught a player stealing, we ban them from the store. These people who are caught give our game a bad name and frankly, shouldn't be a part of it. Players have been banned for much smaller crimes than stealing so I see no reason why we should keep these two thieves around.
Stealing has always been a problem throughout the game's history, whether it be at a local level or a world championship level. Any time we've caught a player stealing, we ban them from the store. These people who are caught give our game a bad name and frankly, shouldn't be a part of it. Players have been banned for much smaller crimes than stealing so I see no reason why we should keep these two thieves around.
signofzeta
New Member
I'd be surprised if the Hotel didn't increase the security of the bell desk baggage area, after all this happened. TPCi could have done something, but there are times when TPCi can't do anything, in the cases where the thief isn't a player in the tournament, and was just some outsider. Right now, I am talking about alternate situations that could happen in the future, and the worst thing one can do is to have their things stolen twice, if not repeatedly.
The only thing that Gino can get right now is a bad reputation, and the lost of trust from other Pokemon TCG players.
I've considered playing YuGiOh semi competitively mainly as a change of pace from Pokemon. Everytime I bring it up though I always hear about how terrible the game is with regard to stealing and cheating. That's stopped me everytime from doing anything more than borrowing a friend's deck to screw around with. The last 6 months or so has had Pokemon begin to gain a reputation for the same kind of cheating, and now stealing. Is it as bad as YuGiOh? No, not close. But it's still steadily gaining more and more examples.
I don't pretend to know TPCi's or Nintendo's strategy on this. I also cannot speak for the majority of players.
I do personally hope that TPCi acts in a way that maintains the positive reputation of Pokemon. On the one hand, I believe that it's important that TPCi gives the impression that there is a consistent set of rules and standards that govern player behavior. I think Biggie's response is in line with that goal--maybe TPCi doesn't want to give the impression that it will respond to some player or hotel complaints, but not others.
But make no mistake, TPCi has a very specific public relations problem with theft. I would go so far as to say that--aside from card cost--it is the most frequent issue raised to me by parents interested in bringing their children to events I attend. "If I come to Fall Regionals, will my child have their valuables stolen? How can I make sure to prevent this?" This is not a general problem. Yes, we all need to make sure that when we carry items that are valuable to us, we take precautions no matter where we go. But parents don't ask me these questions; they don't ask me whether valuable cards will be stolen from their home, or from their mailbox, or while they walk down the street. They tell me that they have read about theft at Pokemon events--even theft that occurs with adults, or theft that occurs outside of official venues--and that leads them to ask me specifically whether their children will encounter theft at Pokemon events. Theft associated with Pokemon events--even if it doesn't occur at the event site--gives them the impression that players at Pokemon events are not safe from thieves. Given that Pokemon is a game targeted (to some extent) to children, it's easy to imagine why the issue of theft, and the impression that children may not be safe from theft, warrants special attention from TPCi.
Biggie mentions other issues that have been raised by attendees and hotel staff. I am not sure that these other issues represent that same threat to the Pokemon brand that theft does. I have never spoken to another player or parent about physical safety or noise issues at a Pokemon event, or read any complaints about these issues on social media or any forum. That doesn't mean these issues aren't raised, or that they are not a concern to TPCi staff, or that they don't affect the ability of TPCi to conduct tournaments or do their business. What I mean is, theft represents a much greater threat to the reputation of Pokemon, to the Pokemon brand, than these issues.
When this sort of controversy is raised, it is natural to relate it to other events (defa-gate) or other hypotheticals. I'm not sure these analogies are relevant here. Theft at events is a special problem for collectible card games, and is a special problem for TPCi. TPCi may be concerned about responding in a way that appears inconsistent. But I want to make a counter-argument that a strong response to theft at events--even one that is not in line with past TCPi decisions relating to player behavior--may be more important to the success of the Pokemon brand than consistency.
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Andy Taton
Twin-Cities area judge and Pokedad
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CardKaptor
New Member
I'm concerned about both (not so much specifically Gino, but a known thief), and I don't really see these as two different issues. Avoiding the whole debate on if the people in this thread are guilty (and for that matter, if they are, setting the precedent that TCPi listens to public outrage on something as definitively internal as banning decisions is not something I necessarily want...), I want to feel safe at any Pokemon tournament I attend, which means if I perceive that a bunch of thieves are lurking around the venue waiting to grab my stuff, I would be significantly less likely to attend the event. One way for TCPi to make me feel safer at tournaments would be to ban people who they know to jeopardize my feeling of safety. Thus, to me your issues #1 and #2 are the same issue.
As for your point that "thieves in general" exist at events, its not really relevant to the discussion. Criminals of all varieties exist in nearly ever facet of our lives. Does that mean we should be aware of and internalize the danger posed by the existence of criminals? Absolutely! Does it mean we should ignore knowledge of the specific identities of criminals? Absolutely not. Even if the actual risk has not changed, your knowledge of the risk has changed, and as such you can make a more informed decision.
Swordfish1989
New Member
I have to agree with this.. as a girl, it's more 'normal' for me to be at Pokemon events than MTG. At MTG events the only girls I saw were girlfriends to the players. And yes, there is more theft with YGO. Both here in FL and in NY, the people running the league had to separate when YGO and Pkmn players play because of theft, and after the separation theft is dramatically reduced or completely gone.
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That's only really accurate at Casinos. Most other places that have cameras have them as records to look back to if something is reported - no one is actively watching the events unfold.
This is a side conversation that might be more interesting as its own discussion, but I think this is very area-dependent. I've traveled places where I felt less welcome at Pokemon events than I do at MTG events, but my home state of Arizona is an amazing place to present female and play Pokemon, and that's a big part of why I've become so involved in the game and community.
Plus, as mentioned, how were they to know that the guy going through the bag didn't own it?
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