Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Thoughts on Poison Hypnotic Beam?

First Ticket, Mewtwo ex, Tornadus EX, PHB, virbank gym. Seems like a good donk deck to me... Sabledonk is gone, there is no use in using that in this argument. With the way the game is going, there will be only 4 viable decks.
 
Opening hand:

Sableye
x2 PHB
VCG

Use two PHB to poison and sleep then either junk hunt them back or Confuse Ray for troll.
 
I might disagree about including First Ticket... but that is based on someone else explaining the probability of it actually working to me. If this person was correct, even maxing it out doesn't bump things up enough to justify it; find four cards to improve your ability to follow through on the donk/win if you don't get the donk.
 
Heres a sample list I thought of.

4x Tornadus EX
3x Mewtwo EX
2x Landorus EX

4x First Ticket
4x PHB
4x Recycle
4x Bicycle
4x Ultra Ball
1x Computer Search

4x Cheren
4x Juniper
4x N
3x Skyla

3x virbank

4x DCE
8x Fighting

This seems like a Sabledonk in training list if you ask me.
 
You really can but most of the makings are there. If there are more ways to discard cards from your hand, bicycle would covers that.
 
Sableyedonk donked 3-4 Pokémon turn one.

This list can only donk one, and without Pokémon Catcher, Switch and other stuff you can scoop before even flipping the Pokémon - just because your opponent placed down two or more Pokémon.

btw Recycle is still a bad card.
 
It's not the fact that Sableye could donk an active Pokemon that made it broken. Plenty of decks can, and have donked throughout the history of the game.

The thing about Sableye is that it could completely wipe out a Field of 3 high HP Basics (high HP relative to the format) before the opponent even drew a card (thanks to Sableye's built-in First Ticket). There was no way to stop it. Not even the tradition anti-donk strategy of benching multiple Basics. Not even the EX Pokemon + PHB have that kind of power.

EDIT: Somewhat ninja'd by ShadowGuard, but yeah . . . anyone comparing this to Sabledonk doesn't remember Sabledonk properly.
 
Well, players will figure something out. All we have to do is wait till the card comes out. Its definitely going to change the game for the worst I feel.
 
Yes, PHB is broken.
Yes, it will increase donks (and so will Ether).
But no, there won't be a winning deck that's primarily focused on donk.
 
It's not a card for donking, it's a card for being a generally good card.

Also it's nothing like sabledonk.
 
vaporeon said:
Well, players will figure something out. All we have to do is wait till the card comes out. Its definitely going to change the game for the worst I feel.
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Justify your statement!! >_<!! The whole point of this thread is to not wait until the card comes out, if you want to wait til the card comes out then don't whine about it and find out for yourself. If you want to announce doom and gloom then you should defend your point.
 
Kayle said:
Justify your statement!! >_<!! The whole point of this thread is to not wait until the card comes out, if you want to wait til the card comes out then don't whine about it and find out for yourself. If you want to announce doom and gloom then you should defend your point.
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I already did. I don't like cards that make basic pokemon for powerful in the format. I also hate how skill no longer plays a role in the game. I hate how powerful basic pokemon are. I mean, what else do you want me to say?
 
vaporeon said:
I already did. I don't like cards that make basic pokemon for powerful in the format. I also hate how skill no longer plays a role in the game. I hate how powerful basic pokemon are. I mean, what else do you want me to say?
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I want you to answer the question I am implicitly asking you. You're just telling me why you don't like it (edit: for very subjective reasons I would disagree with might I add). It's sad that you don't like it, but that doesn't affect me because I like it just fine. What you keep saying is it's bad for the game. So tell me, why is it bad for the game?
 
Because all it does is promote unoriginality and unbalances the game due to the cards being released. You're fine with big basic, I'm not. The game is called Pokemon, not Legendary.

Pokemon means a lot more to me then your can understand and it pains me to my core to see the game like this.
 
I'm gonna have to go with vaporeon on this one. There's just no room for strategy or creativity right now. Believe me I'm trying to be creative too, but stuff like Keldeo and Rayquaza destroy everything. In official tournaments it's pretty much auto-loss if you don't play top tier decks. I post so many different theorymons because people are so engrossed in top-tier decks that they immediately discredit everything else. So I try to present different ideas for people to try, so our TCG play isn't so conformed. But no, they are forever trumped by hyped decks and no one looks beyond them. *sigh* :nonono:
 
vaporeon said:
Because all it does is promote unoriginality and unbalances the game due to the cards being released. You're fine with big basic, I'm not.

The game is called Pokemon, not Legendary.
Click to expand...

I've separated these two things to respond to them separately. I'll try not to get too lengthy on this.

If you feel the game is unbalanced you need to take a step back. Keldeo is tier 1, but not rampaging the format; landorus' viability speaks for that. Darkrai is still good, but Landorus keeps it in check. Terrakion is strong as ever, Tornadus is great, Ho-Oh is making a splash, and there's room to experiment with things like Virizion, Celebi, the Kyurems, and even Klinklang. I was asked today what type was worst in the format. I said "Fire" but Ho-Oh is quite good; then I said "Steel" but Klinklang actually is still good now that Garchomp has died down; Dragon is obviously fine with Hydreigon and the Kyurems. Dark is good, Fighting is good, Water is good, Grass has Shaymin and Virizion to hold it in place, Electric is the only type losing steam as Eels has trouble keeping up.

There are so many viable deck options. Inconsistency is the only trouble with the format I have right now - it's so easy to lose any game because you draw poorly or are N'd poorly - but that's true with most formats, and even if it feels like it's worse in this one, that doesn't mean it IS. I wouldn't really know.


The game is called Pokemon. There are legends, and there are "normal" Pokemon too.

Legendary Pokemon have been bad, with a few notable exceptions in Dialga/Palkia, Mewtwo, and Rayquaza, for a very long time so far as I can remember. They make nice fun legendaries but they've never really been that good.

Might as well give them a turn at being great. Plasma is going to start phasing them out (slowly I think) so you'll get your wish before long.

Fox_Master51 said:
I'm gonna have to go with vaporeon on this one. There's just no room for strategy or creativity right now. Believe me I'm trying to be creative too, but stuff like Keldeo and Rayquaza destroy everything.

In official tournaments it's pretty much auto-loss if you don't play top tier decks. I post so many different theorymons because people are so engrossed in top-tier decks that they immediately discredit everything else. So I try to present different ideas for people to try, so our TCG play isn't so conformed. But no, they are forever trumped by hyped decks and no one looks beyond them. *sigh* :nonono:
Click to expand...

Again, I've separated parts of your post so I can respond to them separately. You're a very creative player and I don't want my point of view to sound like I am encouraging you to NOT be creative, so I instead err on the side of silence. But... for now, I'll give it a shot.

Firstly, if you don't think there's room for creativity, you're looking in the wrong places. There are a set of good cards, and you can intermix them so easily - I feel like every deck I build is a variant of HoPe from the SP era, which was by far my favorite deck even though I was not one of the blessed few that could make it work. (If you don't know what HoPe is poke around for reports from Battle Roads a couple years back.) You mix together cards by what cooperates and what will counter your local field, if you can guess at it. This isn't trivial. Putting together Pokemon EX in a way that has a coherent strategy, such that the Trainers, energy types, attacking options, and weaknesses all cooperate with each other takes a lot of careful thinking and innovation.

To be fair, creativity is scarce now because of how easy it is to share ideas and lists, but up here in Washington we're all very quiet about what we play, so you have to guess and then come up with your own counters. I see some of the zaniest, coolest deck ideas up here. No lie, one of my friends was (successfully) playing Keldeo, Darkrai, Terrakion, Mewtwo, and Ho-Oh all in the same deck. I so completely didn't get it until I saw it being played. He hit some strings of bad luck, but the fact was, that was a creative and viable deck. My testing partner and I have come up with all sorts of bizarre combinations of attackers as well, using various things ranging from Emboar (okay that was pre-BCR) to Klinklang to Dusknoir to Empoleon to Roserade to hold them together. So many options and ideas!


Secondly, looking at the format in "tiers" is only really functional to a point. There are good cards and there are bad cards. But more than that, there are cards that are popular, and cards that are not. A good deck is one that competes with the popular cards. Trying to make a deck like Ninetales/Amoonguss, for example, can be fun, but it fails to compete with Pokemon-EX in almost every way imaginable: it is disruptible early on, its damage output is inconsistent and does not hit any significant benchmarks [if you could OHKO a Pokemon-EX with Ninetales that'd be one thing, but I don't think that's actually possible, I don't think you can get more than 3 special conditions on something], and it doesn't have any redeeming qualities that help it stand out, such as strong typing or a random aspect/feature that another popular deck doesn't like (you confuse/poison/burn me? i play switch, or attach dark and retreat).

Ho-Oh has surprised me by being good because I didn't understand what it did to compete with the format. It had low HP, mediocre typing, and bad damage output. What saves it is, of course, Rebirth being an amazing splashable ability in multicolor decks - and you can make a deck around Rebirth, not necessarily around Ho-Oh. You can recover energy and bring up an attacker out of nowhere, either by throwing Ho-Oh out itself or by Energy Switching to something to surprise your opponent with something else like Terrakion or Keldeo or Landorus.

I wouldn't say we're engrossed in top tier decks, we just know which cards to look at to beat the field, and I'd guess that you don't, or don't care in the same way we do.

I appreciate your response Vaporeon, though it still felt very lackluster and emotionally based rather than thought-out. I can appreciate also that my limited experience in competitive gameplay, being focused on Pokemon SP and then Pokemon EX, is a little bit lopsided in TCG history. But I stand by my belief that the game is balanced and the format is healthier than last set at least - if not outright healthier than Worlds.
 
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Kayle, I will avoid my normal quote dissection and just try to address your comments in general. If I do quote you, it will be as a bridge into an idea; sometimes even a "play upon words". I do not agree with vaporeon, but I do not completely disagree either, and of the three of you, my views match up much better with those Fox_Master51.

Kayle said:
If you feel the game is unbalanced you need to take a step back.
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Take several steps back, and don't stop until you're truly looking at the entire game. I've long been working on an article in my free time about this subject; as players we so easily forget other aspects of the game.

  • That it is a business, but bound by representing the Pokémon franchise as a whole as well as certain ideas held by Creatures, Inc.
  • That while inspired ultimately by a video game series, the vast majority of play mechanics from said series do not translate well if at all to a TCG. They must be adjusted, sometimes abandoned and replaced.
  • The bulk of the game's revenue is generated through sales to large distributors and then to large chain retailers, like Wal-Mart or Target, and from there purchased by those who neither play the game nor really collect; the cards are simply the "toy" a kid is purchases or for whom is purchased.
Now when you do this, you're in the best position to determine a good direction for the game; even if you can't figure out "the best" direction, you can at least spot the undesirable elements of a given direction. Keep this in mind throughout the rest of what I say.

You'll notice it is hard to find a Pokémon that doesn't have fans. Most Pokémon are not universally adored, but even transitional stages have fans. I would be surprised if we were able to literally ask every person alive right now, if we didn't find for every Pokémon a fan for which said Pokémon is their favorite.

Within the mechanics of the game, not every card can or should be identical; that would be boring. It is so improbable as to be impossible to maintain the game mechanics we are familiar with (or even invent new ones) where all cards were ultimately equal despite having different functions.

What is possible and should be the goal, is to have most Pokémon be "functional" and on relatively even footing... which seems akin the goal of the video games; barring "gimmick" Pokémon and accepting that Legendary Pokémon often enjoy raw power, exotic Abilities, and/or access to the best moves, it is amazing how a Pokémon can go from "dud to stud" once you figure out what Natures and Abilities to shoot for, what move sets to use, what Pokémon Tools they should hold, and who else should be on your team.

Not every version of a particular Pokémon need be the star of a deck, but by the end of a given format, it would be nice if each Pokémon was represented at least competently. It is a bit hard to qualify, but as best as I can express, each Pokémon should have a place in deck building, and while some decks are going to be more popular or more powerful, if someone really wants to run a particular Pokémon, it shouldn't force them to give up having a competitive deck. Nor should the tournament scene be overly homogenous... which brings me to my next area of discussion.

Kayle said:
The game is called Pokemon. There are legends, and there are "normal" Pokemon too.

Legendary Pokemon have been bad, with a few notable exceptions in Dialga/Palkia, Mewtwo, and Rayquaza, for a very long time so far as I can remember.
Click to expand...

The game is called Pokémon, not "Legendary Pokémon" or what have you; it is no better for the game to have token Legendary Pokémon that are worthless for competitive play than for them to be the driving force of competitive play, crowding out the vast majority of other Pokémon.

"Gimmick" Pokémon have a pretty hit or mess record; Pokémon-ex, Level Up, SP, various other "owner" mechanics, delta species... these things all did quite well. Pokémon LEGENDS, Pokémon*, Shining Pokémon, etc. have not.

Kayle, you know I am a student of this game; I didn't experience every format first hand or in depth, and I understand how you can miss stuff, but "Legendary" Pokémon generally fair about as well as most others. Since Legendary Pokémon are a minority when compared with everything else, it can be easy to think they aren't getting a fair deal, but Legendary Pokémon have been strong in the game of Pokémon since nearly the beginning.

The infamous "Movie Promo" Mewtwo was one of about a dozen Pokémon that were important to dominant decks of the earliest period of the game, unless we decide to "shrink" that era to less than the first three sets plus promos. Fossil Articuno, while only used in Rain Dance decks, also was an early Legendary Pokémon that made its mark. A few Zapdos decks (using either Base Set or Fossil versions) were attempted, and my studies of reconstructing Base-Fossil era without Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal show it to be pretty potent.

So out of the five "Legendary" Pokémon of Mew, Mewtwo, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, about a fourth of them were strong. Yes, I am factoring in the multiple, different versions as well (not reprints but cards with the same name but very different stats and effects) during that era. This unfortunately is pretty representative of the game's history; a small amount of cards released were useful enough to use competitively, while the rest were lucky to enjoy "fun" decks.


Kayle said:
Firstly, if you don't think there's room for creativity, you're looking in the wrong places.
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More likely, they (as do I) define it differently than you do.

I hear a lot of arguments based on relativity for Pokémon, and such arguments are not necessarily invalid. It is important to keep it all in the proper perspective; just because one thing is "better" than another doesn't make them both good, nor does something being "worse" than another thing make them both bad.

Not to just play with words, but I would describe what we can do this format more as flexibility than "creativity". Whether players are sharing ideas more or not, choosing between select major strategies and then trying to pick out the right TecH cards or exact build isn't what players like myself consider "creativity". Flexibility is very good! I greatly prefer it to a format where not only must I play one of a select few decks, but where I must run my deck almost identically to everyone else in order to win even a low level event.
 
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