Thread to discuss the war

[sjmp]

if this war is about oil, then please, i ask you to visit Ground Zero of New York City and remember those innocent people who were butchered by terrorist, who ljumped from the highest story's of the building hoping to survive the impact, visit the USS Cole, and speak to the families of the soldiers who died, go to Madrid Spain and ask the family's of the train bombing if this war is for oil.

If i recall right, we went to war because 3000+ Americans Died on 9/11 by terrorist. we never would have gone to war if that had not happened. So if you have the ability to put 2+2 together, it should be blindingly obvious to you that this war was not started for Oil. it was started because America WAS ATTACKED. we went to war with Japan when they attacked us, why would this be any different?

If I remember correctly, they put the attacks of 11/09/01 down to Al-Qaeda... an international terrorist organization seeking to promote Islam as the only true faith. Nothing to do with Iraq/Saddam Hussein. Also, from my experience the families of those killed are usually the first to denounce the war.

Also, comparing this with Americas entry into World War II is a bit inappropriate. America wanted to go to war with Germany and it's allies, but couldn't because it didn't have enough grounds; it itself hadn't been attacked, and non of the aggressors wished to declare war on USA... until Japan launched an attack on Pearl Harbor, and Hitler declared war on USA.

In this instance a terrorist organization (not a government) attacked the US, and then America decided it would try to take out the Taleban (a military force that controlled parts of Afghanistan. Loved in Afghanistan by most as they where the only legal force, and tried to implement what the people wanted: Islamic law), after they refused to hand over Osama Bin Laden (he'd been wanted since 1998 for attacks on America, but was a war hero in the middle east after he put his own money into training an army [Al-Qaeda] and funding the war against the Soviet Union when they tried an invasion). The whole Iraq thing came afterwards. In order to relate this to WWII, it's like America saying (after Japan had surrendered) "we now declare war on Russia, China, Korea and Cuba, because we feel they might attack us if we don't take them out first".

and for the record... their country was already in shambles before we got there, war lords and Saddam controlled everything, people were being executed... imagine living in a blood and crip hood with no cops. that is what Iraq was like before we got there

Actually there where cops... but they where also crips. That's sort of what it was like. I'll agree Iraq wasn't exactly a utopia before the invasion, but then, what gives anyone the right to say "I don't like the way that country is being run... let's change it". Just imagine America didn't have the largest military force for a minute, but say Iran did... do Iran have the right to say "that Bush guy is doing everything all wrong... he's promoting Christian values, and ignoring the rights of muslims... let's put our own government in America and get that place run properly". Would you be happy with that?

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

I have much to say, but pretty much all of it already has been said, so the only response left to Ninjaskfan is as follows:

I am going to assume that you mis-poke because no one could be this ignorant.

 

[Marril]

I'm predicting page 3...

Actually, it could go pretty much indefinitely. You may not have noticed, but despite that I started this thread, I'm not in the thick of the argument.

I agree wholeheartedly with Zak though. Ninjaskfan is being exceedingly ignorant for reasons already stated by sjmp and ixidor89. However, in the vein of the OP, I'll use a single sentence to hopefully foster more discussion:

we never would have gone to war if that had not happened.

My one sentence: "9/11 was nothing more than a convenient excuse to go to war with the Middle East (for oil, as stated in the OP) again."

 

[Poliwag92]

There is also the viewpoint that 9/11 was a setup from the US government....

 

[Mew]

There is also the viewpoint that 9/11 was a setup from the US government....

yes...
Or at least we knew about it with the thousands of Intelligance orginizations we have, and decided to let it happen.

 

[deckmaster]

Look at it from an economic point of view. The United States does not import any items, thus exporting has weakened our economy. The War is a short term goal, as opposed to the long term effect; what is the long term effect; you say? The long term effect, is the American dollar, which will be at an all time low (which can take a long time), thus countries (major businesses) wanting to invest in the American dollar because there money buys more here. The war is about oil, why? It’s a product that everyone needs, and we can sell it. We would want more people to invest in the American dollar but the problem is we don’t have any thing to offer anymore, think about it; American unions, as vital as they were, are now destroying and hurting our country. Most of the “American made” companies left to make there products in countries where there money buys more, and workers demand less. Now here comes the “Boomerang effect”, dollar down, Yen, Euro, etc up, business say “hmm our money buys more there” make factories in USA. I would hate to say this… maybe I would be hated by many… but ask your self this question… is Bush right? I mean we all want/ care about money….common Government is a business in its self. I am not saying anything….you decide.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

First off, I think that the motive behind actually trying to create inflation is to make the national debt vaguely payable.

Also, I think minimum wage laws do more for workers' rights than unions in the US today.

Anyway, the dilemma described in the above post is a good way to show the (a?) problem with having any sort of socialist regard for common workers: unless such rights are prevalent on the international stage, they end up doing harm locally.

Anyway, I think the minimum wage is likely to follow any further significant inflation, so I doubt it would make American manufacturing a whole lot more profitable.

 

[NoPoke]

Which war?

The war on terror?
The war on drugs?
The war on ignorance?
The war on underage sex?
The war on poverty?
The war on cancer?
The war on disease?

so many wars

To be honest the term war is now so commonly used it has lost all meaning. Which is probably the most incidious danger that all these wars actually present to us. War no longer has any meaning, we no longer understand what it means to go to war.

War has always been about self interest, sometimes that view is shared by many and you have the odd idea of a 'just' war. Much of the time combatants and public alike have to be persuaded that the war is justifed and necessary. Make no mistake: we are all easily persuaded. Just ask any stage hynotist/magician.

 

[VFD Member 2]

Personaly, I think that if we pulled our troops out of Iraq we would lose just like we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled our troops out because all the Vietnamese did was terrorize our troops. I think that is the reason that George Bush won't withdraw them, although I really want them to come home as my brother is amongst them.

 

[Kempley05]

The similarities between Vietnam and Iraq, Bush and Johnson, Nixon and just about every sane politician are surreal. And of course it was all set as being just one front against an evil enemy, who would destroy your way of existence. Communists or Terrorists? It’s all the same – an enemy to unite a malleable public behind a terrifying way of life. To vote for the government is to vote for goodness, to vote against them is to vote for the enemy.

All politicians need an out-group or an enemy. With Bush and Blair its Islamic extremism, with Hitler it was the Jews, with Kennedy the Communists – at the end of the day it’s the same principle – scare your people enough with the alternative, and they’ll inevitably pick the devil they know rather than the devil they don’t.

 

[VFD Member 2]

Aye, endless schisms have divided the world and they always end the same.

 

[ixidor89]

Personaly, I think that if we pulled our troops out of Iraq we would lose just like we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled our troops out because all the Vietnamese did was terrorize our troops. I think that is the reason that George Bush won't withdraw them, although I really want them to come home as my brother is amongst them.

Quite a few people would argue that there is nothing to be won by staying in Iraq. If that is true, is losing really the worst thing in the wolrd?

After Vietnam, we eventually normalized relations. We don't have problems with the Vietnamese anymore because we left them alone. If we could just leave the middle east alone, maybe we won't have these problems.

 

[VFD Member 2]

Or maybe we will have an enormous problem. The risk is enormous. I do not know what we are fighting for. All I know is that if we pull out, the problems could stop. Yet, if we pull out, the problems could get worse. As I said all schisms end the same, but they do not have the same story.

 

[deckmaster]

Quite a few people would argue that there is nothing to be won by staying in Iraq. If that is true, is losing really the worst thing in the wolrd?

After Vietnam, we eventually normalized relations. We don't have problems with the Vietnamese anymore because we left them alone. If we could just leave the middle east alone, maybe we won't have these problems.

I totally agree, and I am glad you mentioned that. I find it funny, that now, in present day, that the U.S conducts business with the North Vietnamese, as opposed to when we were at war. However, this is a different time period, so maybe just pulling out would be harmful.

 

[ninetales1234]

Quite a few people would argue that there is nothing to be won by staying in Iraq. If that is true, is losing really the worst thing in the wolrd?

Yeah. How will we know when the war has been won?
The stock answer, "When the job's done" doesn't do crap for us.

All politicians need an out-group or an enemy. With Bush and Blair its Islamic extremism, with Hitler it was the Jews, with Kennedy the Communists – at the end of the day it’s the same principle – scare your people enough with the alternative, and they’ll inevitably pick the devil they know rather than the devil they don’t.

I'm gonna go pick on the Yugioh players. They are the source of the world's problems. Who's with me?

They don' hate us because we're free; they hate us because we are there.

If you step in a hornets' nest, it's usually not the best policy to stay there and try to swat all of the hornets to death.

That sounds a lot like something my friend Ron Paul said.

 

[eI_at10s]

After Vietnam, we eventually normalized relations. We don't have problems with the Vietnamese anymore because we left them alone. If we could just leave the middle east alone, maybe we won't have these problems.

You do understand the difference between government and religion, right?

The Vietnam war was fought to prevent the spread of communism.
The theory of communism (not Marx, Chinese) is that it needs to protect itself.
So long as they believe they have this security, they calm down.

Religion, on the other hand, doesn't calm down.
Because your religion is more passion-based than your politics, it doesn't end.
Extremist Islam will not stop when we pull out.
If anything, they may take that opportunity and make a full on attack on the US, or the world in general.

v that is debatable.

 

[ixidor89]

Religion, on the other hand, doesn't calm down.
Because your religion is more passion-based than your politics, it doesn't end.
Extremist Islam will not stop when we pull out.
If anything, they may take that opportunity and make a full on attack on the US, or the world in general.

And all of our problems with middle eastern peoples have been caused by our involvement there. Do you honestly think that 9/11 woud have occured if we had never been in the mddle east? That would be like saying that you think Basque terrorists in Spain would take time and energy out of their lives to blow up ski resorts in Switzerland. It's just not going to happen. They don' hate us because we're free; they hate us because we are there.

If you step in a hornets' nest, it's usually not the best policy to stay there and try to swat all of the hornets to death.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

The Vietnam war was fought to prevent the spread of communism.
The theory of communism (not Marx, Chinese) is that it needs to protect itself.
So long as they believe they have this security, they calm down.

The US certainly didn't think so. That was the whole idea behind the domino theory... They thought that if communism spread anywhere it would just keep going and going. And to some extent this was true; the Soviet Union was certainly intimidated by Western powers, and did indeed try to grab land.

Religion, on the other hand, doesn't calm down.
Because your religion is more passion-based than your politics, it doesn't end.
Extremist Islam will not stop when we pull out.
If anything, they may take that opportunity and make a full on attack on the US, or the world in general.

Nothing could have possibly been more passionate about its cause than the Viet Cong.
Anyway, what are you going to do? Kill all the fanatics? Even attempting anything of the source would only fuel the fire. The fact is, these people need a lot of support if they want to accomplish anything, and constantly screwing with them is exactly the way to build it. I think people could be a lot more rational if they didn't have an oppressive empire to hate.

 

[murtagh77]

We could "win" the war if by win you mean threaten them with nukes, bomb them with nukes, etc...but I like to think my country is a bit more civilized than to jump right to the nukes. Forgive me if its sounds simple, for I'm not eloquent when it comes to discussion of wars and the politics involed.

Just my .02

 

[Articjedi]

Nah, nukes make everything worse. The second you start threatening with nuclear weapons, the survivors will only hate you more, except now they have nothing to lose. It's not like you can completely make a country disappear, anything that's left will only grow again with greater hatreds.