Time+3; Stalling on Drawing a Card

[SLOW DECK]

OK. Issue came up., and I didn't like the answer I heard from a Judge. (Is this ever something new?).

At a battle road, I was late in game in a Swiss Match (I was going to lose regardless, but that isn't the point), and had just KO's my opponents pokemon, taken my prize, and I was waiting for my opponent to: 1. Promote a active pokemon. and 2. Draw a Card to Start his Turn. I have done everything I needed to do, damage, healing, etc between turns. The turn is waiting to end because of my opponent. My opponent had a decision to make on who to promote, and took longer than a few moments to decide.
TIME IS CALLED!!
Thus the Time has ended on my TURN, not his. I will only get one more turn, he will get 2 more turns. I called a judge over to discuss this between turns issue, he said the rules state it is still his turn, regardless the amount of time he spent on starting his turn. This specific game, this game result was already decided, my opponent conceded the judge that he didn't start his turn promptly, but there wasn't malice in his delay, he had legitimate decision point to be made.

Anyways, this sitution brought to light a issue with TIme+3. If a player was cheap, they could intentionally delay starting their turn to increase the odds of time being called on their opponents turn.


In the prior Time only format, Strategy gave the incentive to start your turn as soon as possible, so that you would get the last turn.

In the new Time+3 turns format, Strategy gives the incentive to delay starting your turn as long as possible, so that you get the last turn.

So if a player takes more than that normal time to promote and draw a card what can be done?

Please don't bring up SOTG here, we all have it, our opponents ussually do too, but the idea of rules is to be fair and just, and not to give undue advantage to those who are not.

Recommendation for Rules for Time+3 format Tournament:A players turn will effectively end after a player has confirmed that they have done all actions required of them to the game state, ( Resolving all aspects of attacks, placing damage, conditions, taken prizes, resolving their between turn conditions, and have preformed all of there end of turn and between turn actions. (All actions of involving their control.) "They may politely declare that ended my turn." Thus for time purposes, it is the opponents turn, regardless of promotion of a new active or drawing a card.

Again, please provide other potential solutions, that DON'T ASSUME A JUDGE IS WATCHING A EVERY MATCH. Good rules don't require active judging. The tournament timing has change, and I think rule tweeks that make sense need to accompany them to smooth out these issues.

 

[xcfrisco]

Recommendation for Rules for Time+3 format Tournament:A players turn will effectively end after a player has confirmed that they have done all actions required of them to the game state, ( Resolving all aspects of attacks, placing damage, conditions, taken prizes, resolving their between turn conditions, and have preformed all of there end of turn and between turn actions. (All actions of involving their control.) "They may politely declare that ended my turn." Thus for time purposes, it is the opponents turn, regardless of promotion of a new active or drawing a card..

Completely and absolutely agree. I'm actually really surprised that this isn't the rule in place already. (As in your opponents turn BEGINS right at the end of your turn, and not AFTER they have decided which pokemon to promote)

 

[NoPoke]

Not that it changes your arguement but I expect it was ruled as in-between turns and not your turn.

22.1. Resolution of Match After the Final Turn Ends

If time is called during a player’s turn, he or she completes the current turn. In-between turn effects resolve, and the next turn is considered turn 1 of 3 to be played after time expires. If the third turn is completed and there is a clear winner, the game is over and no in-between turn effects are resolved.

If time is called between turns, all in-between turn effects resolve and the new turn is considered turn 1 of 3 to be played after time expires. If the third turn is completed and there is a clear winner, the game is over and no in-between turn effects are resolved.

For best-of-three play, each game is considered to have started once the starting player has been determined. If time is called during set-up, use the rules in Section 22.3 to determine the appropriate course of action.

 

[SLOW DECK]

Ian, Thanks. The judge that day ruled/advised this wrong. But this is confusing. I was thinking (I knew this, smack my head) there was only two states, my turn versus my opponent's turn. With my bad thinking was the division was when we start our turn when we draw a card. But I think you have pointed out that there are distinct "in-between" phase.

To be clear, can someone point out again exactly when my turn ends?
MY turn End of my Turn - > In-Between Turns -> Begining Opponents Turn is.

I think I could remember, but I hoping for someone with an exact reference will help. Otherwise, I will probably mess this up too!.

 

[Chairman Kaga]

A player can never not have an active Pokemon. Any time this occurs, the game freezes for that player to choose a new one. Hence the promotion of a new active Pokemon is part of the attack resolution, and thus occurs during the attacking player's turn. If a player moves up a Pokemon that has a between-turns effect, that effect will occur, because between-turns hasn't started yet.

The ruling was correct in this case.

Probably more relevant to the current discussion is this:

7.4. Game Tempo

In general, the following time limits for various game actions should be appropriate.

• Performing the actions of a card or attack: 15 seconds
• Shuffling and setup, game start: 2 minutes
• Shuffling and deck search, mid-game: 15 seconds
• Starting the turn after opponent’s “end of turn” announcement: 5 seconds
• Considering the game position before playing a card: 10 seconds

Promoting a Pokemon has little effective difference from playing a card, so I would hold a player to the 10-second guideline.

 

[Kayle]

MY turn End of my Turn - > In-Between Turns -> Begining Opponents Turn is.

I certainly don't have an exact reference - this is more for clarification on my part than anything else - but this is my understanding:

- YOUR TURN ENDS WHEN:
All attack effects, if any, have been resolved
Active Pokemon have been replaced, if any
After-you-attack Pokemon Powers or Bodies have been resolved, if any
Supporters and other stay-in-play-until-the-end-of-your-turn cards have been discarded

IN-BETWEEN TURNS ends when both players mutually agree, which I would generally assume is once both players have advanced any between-turn effects, like discarding a card or healing with Nidoqueen.

Your opponent's turn starts, ideally, when they draw a card. But that's the center of the issue.

 

[NoPoke]

Players should not be rules lawyers and neither should judges when it isn't necessary. In this particular case it doesn't matter if the opponent promoting an active is part of SLOW DECK's turn or not as the outcome from the floor rules is the same.

I'm not saying that either of the posts are rules-lawyering the issue as there is always value in probing the edges especially away from the time constraints of a tournament. It might be important for a different scenario to the one presented. However it is a distraction from the original post to argue about the exact wording that the judge might have used. Whatever was said the end result was what you would expect from the floor rules. The +3 ended on the opponents turn. Whatever the reason given at the tournament the outcome was correct to the floor rules.

So back to the topic. I'm never particularly happy with any scenario where it benefits the opponent to slow down - deliberately or unintentionally. Is this one of those? And if it is can it be fixed easily?

 

[Skytso]

Even if it had been ruled that it was still SLOW DECK's turn... the turn outcome would be the same. The only way that it would end up that SLOW KING would get the 2 turns instead of his opponent is if his opponent had actually started his turn. In this situation, it doesn't matter if it's his turn or between turns... the turns given are the same. Honestly, I think that the opponent could have at least 30 seconds to decide what s/he wanted to do.

1) Resolve the attack - 15 Seconds
2) Promoting a new active (Considering game position) - 10 Seconds
3) Beginning your turn - 5 Seconds

That's not even counting any between turn actions that might have to be accounted for. If there were any powers in play or effects that happen on death or when your new active is promoted, you could be looking at another minute easily.

And to everyone who says "don't rules lawter". The game has rules. Rules are made to be followed. If you don't follow the rules, the game doesn't work properly. Not that you should get upset if it simply doesn't change the outcome of the game, following the rules of the game is still one of the most important aspects of the game.

 

[evil psyduck]

1) Resolve the attack - 15 Seconds
2) Promoting a new active (Considering game position) - 10 Seconds
3) Beginning your turn - 5 Seconds

Those are just guidelines.

 

[Aniodia]

Those are just guidelines.

<Devil's Advocate> So it's cool to take longer than that because those are just guidelines? If one is adequately decent at telling time and/or has a watch and can estimate how long in the round it's been, it's OK to slow play a little to stall the clock and gain an advantage, because those are just guidelines. </Devil's Advocate>

I dunno, kinda seems fishy to me.

 

[evil psyduck]

<Devil's Advocate> So it's cool to take longer than that because those are just guidelines? If one is adequately decent at telling time and/or has a watch and can estimate how long in the round it's been, it's OK to slow play a little to stall the clock and gain an advantage, because those are just guidelines. </Devil's Advocate>

I dunno, kinda seems fishy to me.

Can you read? Show me where i said what you did?

The post i quoted said how much time is allowed. Guidelines mean just that. It doesn't mean you can take longer and it doesn't mean you have to take a shorter time.

I have seen people get a penalty for taking the time he stated and i have seen people get a penalty for taking less time. Each case is different.

And i'll thank you not to infer i said something i didn't even say. :nonono:

As someone once said> "Think Then Post"

 

[lucario aura wielder]

a penalty for less time the only way i can see that happening is from rushing

 

[Lawman]

The player's turn starts when they draw their card. If time is called before then, unless a penalty is required for slow play/stalling, then the 1st of the +3 turns happens on oppo's turn. In OP's situation, SLOW DECK would only get 1 more turn (2nd of 3 turns). You have a SMALL amount of time to promote an active, then start your turn.

Keith

 

[Skytso]

I have seen people get a penalty for taking the time he stated and i have seen people get a penalty for taking less time. Each case is different.
[/COLOR]

While this is true, guidelines are there for a judge to say "yes, that would be considered stalling" or "no, that's not stalling" and have something to point at to back themselves up if a player challenges the decision.

I'm not actually saying that you should take that long and in most cases it's a really easy decision as to who to promote. But if my Garchomp Lv X just died vs something with 50 hp left and I have a special Darkness Energy in my hand and a Sableye and Honchkrow G on the bench... that's a reasonably difficult decision. I could easily see taking as much as 15 seconds to make that decision and I would be right in taking that much time. There are a number of different scenarios to think about before trying to burn through my deck to find that e-gain or just taking the prize now and setting up more next turn.

Not saying your point isn't valid. In a real world situation, it's unusual to take that much time and people probably should get a penalty for considering who to put up more then 2 seconds if there are two Umbreon on the bench, neither with energy. But the guidelines are there to make sure that a judge has a frame of reference as to what's stalling and what's simply considering your next play.

 

[Physics Squirrel]

So, while I think I agree with you, SLOW DECK, I'd like to point out the following consequence of doing it your way.

The person whose turn it is would then be in complete control of when his turn ends, so if he were watching the clock (ie stopwatch), he could drag his turn out and attack right before time is called, and then argue "I announced my attack and placed the damage counters. It shouldn't be my turn anymore!"

Of course, assuming his opponent is an honest player, he could generally get away with this anyway. But by depriving the opponent of the ability to control the tempo slightly between turns, it becomes a sure thing.

 

[NoPoke]

Physics, I don't see that. SLOW DECK's proposal is that it is either my turn or your turn with in between turn actions being part of your turn and resolving your knocked out pokemon is also part of your turn. So if you want the last turn you need to complete your turn quickly so the clock does not end on your turn. His proposal does remove the incentive to slow down for both players, unless I've missed something that is.

 

[Aniodia]

Can you read?

No need to resort to insults, especially coming from site staff.

Show me where i said what you did?

Sure.

Those are just guidelines.

The way this is written, one could put the emphasis on just, implying they're just guidelines, and not actual rules to be followed.

The post i quoted said how much time is allowed. Guidelines mean just that. It doesn't mean you can take longer and it doesn't mean you have to take a shorter time.

Wikipedia article on guidelines. I'll direct you to the second non-italicized sentence. or, if Wikipedia isn't your thing, maybe The Free Dictionary's second definition is. Both imply that guidelines are, in fact, NOT hard-and-fast rules, but designed to assist in the creation of those rules. The particular part of your post above would imply that you believe otherwise, though I do not and cannot assume one way or the other.

I have seen people get a penalty for taking the time he stated and i have seen people get a penalty for taking less time. Each case is different.

This I can agree on. Each judge may rule on each case on its own merits, and where one would rule a penalty, another may only issue a caution. This isn't limited to Pokemon; I know for a fact that there have been quite a few Magic the Gathering articles on various sites regarding judges, judging, and making floor rulings.

And i'll thank you not to infer i said something i didn't even say. :nonono:

As someone once said> "Think Then Post"

Again with the personal insults, implying I don't think before I post. As could be assumed by my previous post, I was speaking for the less-popular viewpoint. Never did I say that was my own viewpoint, and to take my post as such and insult me twice in doing so is rather rude. :nonono:

To stay on point, I would agree with SLOW DECK in that the determination of whose turn it is should be a binary check (as in, it is or it isn't my turn), and effects that are "between turns" be counted as the next player's turn, before they draw (since the previous player ended their turn). This way, it avoids stalling and slow play, though rushing may become a bit of an issue for both players.

 

[Physics Squirrel]

Physics, I don't see that. SLOW DECK's proposal is that it is either my turn or your turn with in between turn actions being part of your turn and resolving your knocked out pokemon is also part of your turn. So if you want the last turn you need to complete your turn quickly so the clock does not end on your turn. His proposal does remove the incentive to slow down for both players, unless I've missed something that is.

I understand. The important point is that the person whose turn it is has compete control over when his turn ends. It's like musical chairs or hot potato, and you get to choose exactly when the music stops.

 

[SLOW DECK]

Thanks for the discussion folks.

After there "becomes a delay", what can a player do. (defined as when you realize your opponent hasn't promoted and drew there card in a timely manner.)

If a judge was watching this match, at that moment, then there wouldn't be a problem. Warnings, Penalties, extension would be likely granted. What about the rest of the matches?

I personally don't want to call a judge after there "becomes a delay". It seems nice and civil to ask your player to conceed that it is their turn. If they can't I would seem to be the time to call a judge. Keep the match Civil, and when someone calls a judge, it is like being a tattle tale, no one want's to do that.

 

[Skytso]

If a judge was watching this match, at that moment, then there wouldn't be a problem. Warnings, Penalties, extension would be likely granted. What about the rest of the matches?

Judges watch top cut matches. In my experience, if a match is going to time and is a close one, a judge is probably hanging close by anyway... They like watching good games as much as anyone. Honestly, most games that go to time in Swiss rounds are easy to tell who's got the advantage.