Unown E ruling/answer found in rulebook

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Rainbowgym, Sep 7, 2007.

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  1. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I want to ask to review the ruling made on Unown E, because I do believe it's incorrect.
    The Questions
    The Answers
    Correct me if I am wrong but the way Tools "work" is because it's written on the card and not because it's a gamerule.
    I checked all tools from Neo Genesis-on and all tools have the additional text taking care you cannot attach a second tool.
    But there is a gamerule "play the card as written".
    Unown E has no text saying:
    "You cannot attach this card if there is already a Tool attached to that pokemon (or simular wording)"

    I also checked the translations Bangiras made on this card and it says treat Unown E as a Pokemon Tool.
    With this in mind I think the ruling for Unown E should be
    Q1. Yes, You can attach Unown E to a pokemon who already has a Tool on it (because it's NOT written on the card you can't).
    Q2. NO, You cannot attach a "regular" tool to a pokemon who has Unown E attached, because it's treated as a Tool because of the written text on regular Tools.
    Q3. Yes you can.

    I don't think this card is really discussed and a ruling made because all regular Tools have that specific wording about not being allowed to attach a second one.
    My first reaction when my son played this card was also, you can't do that. And I feel Pokepop ruled this way because (same as me) had never been an issue.
    But me son also stated it's not on the card. And after reviewing EACH tool which was released since Neo Genesis I came to the conclusion he is correct.
    The text "attach Unown E as a Tool, (or bangiras "treat this card as a Tool iso Pokemon) for me refers to the option Windstorm should be able to remove it from play (or some attacks).

    There was never a need for a ruling on Tools, because all Tools had a reference on it you could not attach a second on.
    It was "do as written on the card".
    That's why I ask to review/discuss the ruling made, because I strongly believe it's an incorrect ruling.

    Thanks for reading
    Li@
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2007
  2. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Copying to Single Cards which is where disputes and disagreements with rulings can be discussed.
    Leaving a copy here so Jimmer can comment, if he wishes.
     
  3. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    The rules have always allowed just one tool to be attached to a Poke at a time and that you could not attach another. (i.e. one reason PP is considered better than strength charm bc PPs stack and SC does not)

    Keith
     
  4. Jayson

    Jayson Active Member

    This reminds me of Marowak d from the Delta Species set, whose bench damaging attack didn't include the "don't apply weakness and resistance to benched pokemon" blurb. I don't have a rulebook in front of me to check, but I think the no weakness/resistance rule exists only on the cards? And it was understood that even though Marowak's card didn't have the bench damage blurb, it still applied.

    I think it's the same case here. Tools can only be attached one at a time whether they say so on the card or not, because of the precedent of 15 sets worth of tools all saying the same thing.
     
  5. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member


    Not the rules but the "as written on the card" made this happen.
    There was no need for a ruling untill now.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    The W/R rule has been confirmed somewhere a long way back (2001), therefor it is a gamerule.
    If all Tools say the same thing, why does this specific card doesn't say it?

    What can follow, if they print a card Supporter and don't add the usual "you can only play 1 of these each turn". It simply would need some discussion if this is a printing mistake (followed by errata) or if the card is intended to be used multiple times.

    Sorry but I think Unown E is to important to just go along with "it has been always this way".
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2007
  6. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Well looking at the card there's not much room to put additional words...

    But by treating it as a Pokémon Tool, you follow all the rules of the existing Pokémon Tools.
     
  7. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Well there are more cards I need glasses for to read them, so I don't think that's a reason to leave it behind.

    Oh, well that depends on what is the rule?
    Some tools cannot be attached to an EX pokemon, because it's stated on the card in the same part of the text as stated only 1 tool can be attached.
    It's not stated in the Effect of the card but in the "directions".
    So it can be attached to an EX because there is no direction given, but I cannot stack while nothing on the card says you can't.

    Unown E has NO directions only an effect, which is adding 10 HP.

    Also it doesn't say anywere on the English card TREAT it as a Tool, it only refers to the Status of the card which means it's no longer a Pokemon but a Tool for game (attack/trainer) purpose.
     
  8. Dom

    Dom New Member

    Its one of those lazy rulings where we're expected to just ASSUME its correct, like RPS to be honest, there's no official rules as to how RPS is played so TGW 's existence is invalid.

    There are no rules for Tools, I agree completely Lia there's no hard and fast rule mentioned anywhere I've seen that says ALL Tools should be played a specific way. Lazy.
     
  9. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    I would have agreed with this, but DP pictures have been increased in comparison to their EX counterparts. If there's room to increase the picture size, there's room to include game text.

    I agree that there are no "existing" Tool rules because of this. However, there is a trend in the game right now to leave off text we commonly see and claim it to be from now on an unwritten metarule. That is a mistake :nonono:

    So, how do we know if we're allowed to attach Unown E to Pokemon-ex? Why pick one rule over the other?
     
  10. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    I think RainbowGym makes a great point. Tools don't have rules outside of what is written on the tools themselves. If a tool card came out and it didn't say you couldn't have more than 1 tool card on a pokemon at the same time, it would be ruled that you could attach multiple of it to pokemon. Or I am pretty sure it would, unless there is some metagame rule that says more than 1 tool can't be attached to a pokemon at the same time.
     
  11. lolganium

    lolganium New Member

    rainbow gym, you've already been told the ruling by profesors, many profesors, why argue an official ruling? it's not like they'll change it just for you
     
  12. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    That's the problem, metagame rules, or "metarules," haven't been written down anywhere until a couple of days ago (we're still hammering that out in the Prof board) and none of them involved Tools. Metarules are more or less getting made up as we go along in order to smooth over problems there are with card texts that the rules can't explain or to twist a ruling into saying something it didn't say originally :nonono: .
     
  13. The Phenom1993

    The Phenom1993 New Member

    Since Unown tells that he is attached as a pokemon tool, he counts as a pokemon tool, that gets destroyed by windstorm and that only 1 can be attached to the same pokemon.
     
  14. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Then there needs to be a metarule on this then. Because I can see where RainbowGym is coming from and there is nothing in the rule books that says that pokemon tools can't be attach in multiple to a pokemon. The only rules for pokemon tools are written on the cards themselves.
     
  15. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Not following the logic on that. If they made a decision to increase the image size and the cards remained the same size, how is there more room for text? You don't expect them to issue one card with a smaller image on it do you?

    In fact, this "new" trend started around the time of the original Team Rocket set when WotC "discovered" the first Metarule because they had issued a card that did apply W&R to the bench damage. Japan at that time corrected them and brought up the Metarule.
    We've been discovering them one by one ever since! I do agree that it would be nice if PCL issued a document with them all outlined.

    Not true at all!
    We do not "make up" a single Metarule! Not a single one.
    We may discover them and reveal them, as new card texts bang up against them and we get rulings from PCL that are different than we expect, but we NEVER, EVER make up any kind of ruling and certainly not a Metarule.
     
  16. PSYCO829

    PSYCO829 New Member

    guys, its like the rule dont apply weakness and resistance for bench pokemon when hitting them for damage
    its inhierent, and usually well known
    if you see a card without the text, you can tell a judge or pokemon official about this, but since tools are well known, including how they work, a conclusion can easily be come to
    since it is treated as a tool, and all tools have the inhierent one per pokemon rule, you can safely assume it counts as the one per pokemon rule
     
  17. lolganium

    lolganium New Member

    but then we all know how to distinguish a body from a power, bodies are uncontrolled, and powers are opptional (usually), that's the main give away for empoleon LVX

    some rules, like this one, should be obvious, its a tool, all tools before this state 1 tool per pokemon, rule, no matter how picky we get with the text, will apply to this card
     
  18. Mystery Thing

    Mystery Thing Administrator

    Like Rocket's Mewtwo? :wink:
     
  19. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Sorry to disappoint you but the ruling regarding weakness and resistance is covered in 1 of the rulebooks I found (Deoxys) and still can be found in the MT rulebook.

    It says: When benched Pokemon receive damage, do not apply Weakness or Resistance.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:


    Nope there was a ruling in the rulebook, and I found a Deoxys rulebook stating that rule.
    So the question about Marowak is likely answered with : check the rulebook.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2007
  20. ShadowCard

    ShadowCard Active Member

    Instead of making the picture bigger, the space could be used for card text. If there is room to increase the card's picture, that space could be used to include necessary text (or increase the font size so we don't need magnifying glasses :lol:).


    The trend isn't the application of metarules onto the game. The trend is leaving out text and elevating it to being an unwritten metarule. These problems wouldn't be arising if the text was included instead of trying to insist on metarules.

    Bad wording on my part then.
     

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