Warning! These Sleeves May Get You DQ'd!

[beleaveucanbegreat]

i play with ultra pro sleeves bc thier decent and chap put my favor sleeves r this red ones with a lighting bolt and a shield their the best sleeves iver ever had ive played with them for 2 years now thier starting to pell but i think ultra pro makes better sleeves then what we got a prelease besides the first set of sleeves

 

[Ness]

I understand rules are rules, but in a game like Pokemon, with such a small community, when it's pretty clear something was done unintentionally, and it's clear how it happened, I would hope someone would not get a game loss. Kind of like a balance of upholding the rules and some common sense.

 

[arconine123]

this is one of the worse calls for gameloss. imo gino got the gameloss yeah because of the sleeves, the only sleeves he had that day to use, and also cause the fact that he is gino. :nonono:

 

[Prime]

I want to publically apologize to PokePop for insinuating that it was a mistake to give a GL for this infraction. I made false assumptions (that the sleeves were randomly irregular, with no pattern).

I'll join that bandwagon.

It's always easy to blame the judge. Gotta fight 'da man', right?

Too many of us jump to conclusions and make assumptions on situations we have no information on.

Pokepop, and every single judge deserves kudos for spending their time and effort to give us the best game possible.

 

[EeveeLover]

this is one of the worse calls for gameloss. imo gino got the gameloss yeah because of the sleeves, the only sleeves he had that day to use, and also cause the fact that he is gino. :nonono:

The fact that Gino was unfortunate enough to have sleeves that were defective was the reason that the GL was issued, not because he is Gino.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Judges are not out to get Gino or any other player.

The Judges are there to make sure games are played correctly, no matter who is involved.

 

[Jaeger]

The fact that Gino was unfortunate enough to have sleeves that were defective was the reason that the GL was issued, not because he is Gino.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Judges are not out to get Gino or any other player.

The Judges are there to make sure games are played correctly, no matter who is involved.

Like it or not though Gino has been the victim of some where questionable calls in the last 2 years. A game loss in Top 8 of Nats for "so play". Gino game in top 4 of Worlds 08 was given a time extension after time was called. And now out of 300 and some players (i don't know how many actually used those sleeves) he was the given a game loss for "marking" (there is no way he was the only one who had this sleeve problem).

I'm not taking sides and I'm not blaming anybody but you have to admit Gino gets the short end more often than most players.

 

[Lawman]

Like it or not though Gino has been the victim of some where questionable calls in the last 2 years. A game loss in Top 8 of Nats for "so play". Gino game in top 4 of Worlds 08 was given a time extension after time was called. And now out of 300 and some players (i don't know how many actually used those sleeves) he was the given a game loss for "marking" (there is no way he was the only one who had this sleeve problem).

I'm not taking sides and I'm not blaming anybody but you have to admit Gino gets the short end more often than most players.

Well, after a player has been verbally prompted to make timely moves, then cautioned and warned....after enough "slow play" calls, it eventually escalates to a GL. If you werent judging and seeing the action/non action along with the guidelines, then dont cast a stone. We all have the same guidelines.

Keith

 

[Doofus]

Let me get this straight, Ninetendo allows their licesned property, Pokemon, to be made into a set of sleeves that doesn't work for the trading card game its intended for (50 Sleeve packs, come on!), provides these sleeves, at the most important event of the Pokemon Trading Card Season, and then doesn't "man up" to the obvious mistake?

Don't blame Ultra Pro, don't blame the judges, don't blame anyone except the owner of the copyright. TM. IP

We should all be lobbying Ninetendo to do something about this.

 

[toxictaipan]

Let me get this straight, Ninetendo allows their licesned property, Pokemon, to be made into a set of sleeves that doesn't work for the trading card game its intended for (50 Sleeve packs, come on!), provides these sleeves, at the most important event of the Pokemon Trading Card Season, and then doesn't "man up" to the obvious mistake?

Don't blame Ultra Pro, don't blame the judges, don't blame anyone except the owner of the copyright. TM. IP

We should all be lobbying Ninetendo to do something about this.

I really hope you're being sarcastic.

If not, I highly suggest you put a flame shield. Quick.

Because a thread full of peoples are fixin' to be all over youz.

 

[Jaeger]

I'm actually ok with the whole 50 Sleeves thing. 60 Would be worse IMO becuase then you wouldn't have extras I rip sleeves like crazy and loving have a few extras. 4 Packs= 3 decks with 20 Extra works out fine.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Well, after a player has been verbally prompted to make timely moves, then cautioned and warned....after enough "slow play" calls, it eventually escalates to a GL. If you werent judging and seeing the action/non action along with the guidelines, then dont cast a stone. We all have the same guidelines.

Keith

Keith, I wasn't blameing the judges, I wasn't there and I didn't watch the game I don't know if the right call was made or not. Slow plays are very controversial becuase of the fact they aren't clear cut (like a person shelfling there hand into there deck) and there is a level of disgression on the judges part. I was trying to offer an objective view point and say I could see how one could think the judges were "out to get him". Once again not saying that is my view point but I could see how one could think that.

 

[Squirtle]

I'll join that bandwagon.

It's always easy to blame the judge. Gotta fight 'da man', right?

Too many of us jump to conclusions and make assumptions on situations we have no information on.

Pokepop, and every single judge deserves kudos for spending their time and effort to give us the best game possible.

QFT.


Like I posted earlier in the thread, this is just an unfortunate situation.


But Matt is exactly right here, guys. All of the judges at at event as large as Worlds, or as small as a BR deserve MAJOR kudos for everything they do.

People always say that without the players there is no game. Well, it's the same for the judges. No judges = no tournaments. Pokemon is like a machine, every piece is needed for it to work properly.

Thanks 'pop and everyone else! :thumb:

 

[SteveP]

Possible advantage is not the same as advantage.
And opinions about what might be "the" advantage differ.
I still think when you cannot proof intention, a penalty as DQ is to much.
There are simply to many "if/might/possible/perhaps" into this.
A game loss is already worse enough during a tournament.

What happens now with the current guidelines, it will punish "innocent" people because of the risk not punishing guilty people. And that's an approach I don't like.
But it seems I am almost alone in that point of view.

Good points Lia. And, you're not alone.

IMO, there's a bit of paranoia "up above" that has resulted in such rules to "come about." For example, at a Regionals tournament in 2008, one player had foil cards in his deck that were slightly curled, making them "stand out" a bit. The judges were having a "pow-wow" about how serious this was and whether to impose a GL/DQ. Many of the judges were "dead serious" that the player had gained a significant advantage throughout the tournament (he made the top cut) that they wanted to DQ him from the playoffs. However, thanks to a reasonable HJ and a supportive PTO, a lesser penalty (GL) was imposed, though personally, I thought that was even too harsh.

IMO, this new rule (new in 2008) should never have been "inked," because it's a bit of a "cop-out" rule. Judges who don't want to spend the effort to prove Cheating can essentially impose the highest penalty possible (only POP can impose bans) with no consideration whether the infractions caused any sort of damage (advantage gained). Just the "potential" for damages must be shown, sometimes subjectively.

Nevertheless, I think such mindsets are indicative of today's society. Due to past history and recent events, we tend to err on the side of caution. The "evil among us" have raised our suspitions of even those who are seemingly innocent.

 

[Box of Fail]

When you succeed at making every sleeve maker on the planet examine literally ever individual sleeve they ever make to make sure they are literally identical in every way, destroying every single one that even deviates slightly, get back to me. I've got the world's largest quality control center I want you to run. I may stick you in the Finance and Environmental departments too.

:nonono:

You clearly don't understand that POP has nothing to do with the manufacture, packaging, or shipping of sleeves. POP doesn't decide what images wind up on sleeves intended for mass market. POP doesn't decide that 50 is a good number of sleeves to put in a pack (note: it isn't). POP doesn't decide for the companies how much of a deviation is acceptable prior to packaging and shipping.

If you bought a pair of these packs of sleeves from a vendor at Nationals, and got a GL because of it, would you run down the vendor and start going on at them how this is completely unacceptable and how dare they let you buy a product from them that wasn't identical in every way? If so, you seriously need to reconsider some things.

Anybody blaming POP or the judges for anything related to these sleeves quite clearly missed the "Players are always responsible for the condition of their cards and card sleeves" part of 7.2 in the Penalty Guidelines. Even if you feel like blaming Ultrapro for the issues with the sleeves, blaming anybody but the person using said sleeves for the penalty issued is stupid. The penalty guidelines explicitly state it is the player's problem.

This is almost as laughable as when people hand in decklists that don't match their deck. Neither of these things are hard to check beforehand and make sure you get it right, LONG before a judge would ever see your deck/list.

But the SIDES of the sleeves have never been a problem in the past, so how can you expect people to check those? I hope POP doesn't expect me to inspect every nook and cranny of every sleeve in my deck to perfection, let alone sleeves POP gave me. I'm a human, not a robot.

It doesn't matter that POP had no say - I understand that they had no way of knowing that the sleeves were erratic. I know POP was not involved. So? It's still their responsibility, whether or not it was their fault. By putting those sleeves in the competitor's package, they are in essence stating that those sleeves are legal for tournament play. To give a player a game loss for using those sleeves is irresponsible and unacceptable, even IF the player had intended to cheat.

 

[Muk Man]

But the SIDES of the sleeves have never been a problem in the past, so how can you expect people to check those?

100% Truth, i always only checked the corners(tend to bend from shuffling) and general condition of the back of the sleeve. Never crossed my mind to check the sides. Now we know what to check for.

 

[Team Evolution]

Why is the 4-4-2 a pattern? Because they are all trainercards?
in that case ANY marked card can give an advantage, but is that worth DQ's? I really don't think so.
Untill now I fail to see a pattern at all, 10 cards marked identical, 3 different names, wow that's a real advantage good luck knowing were part of your trainercards might be.

If that was the reason they gave him the game loss that is a joke. The cards in the diffent marked sleeves means absolutely nothing considering most people I know sleeve there cards in a certain order Pokemon/Trainers/Energy or whatever order they use since lets face it I doubt anyone pre shuffles before sleeving so they could possibly damage there cards. If I had sleeved the first 50 cards in my order all the other sleeve type would have been Water energies so I would have gotten a game loss because of there poorly made sleeves? And lets face it, every single one of the sleeves Ultra Pro has made for Pokemon has had issues of them being marked sleeves so why did they use Ultra Pro again.

 

[NoPoke]

Responsibility? Or just a search for someone else to blame.

Paranoia? Or a reflection of players and TOs concerns and complaints to POP over issues they experience at events.

-------

I don't want to damage my cards so I put them in sleeves. Job done, my cards are now safe.

I don't need to make sure that the sleeved cards aren't marked unintentionally. Not my fault if POP have to deal with accusations of favouritism or TOs have to cope with their event schedule being stressed or worse by poor sleeves.

Sleeves are perfect and last forever right? I don't need to actually check them do I? That's just such a waste of my time.

----------------------

We get the penalties (society) we deserve. The decline starts with an abdication of personal and collective responsibility.

 

[rokman]

I sure as hell can't play WITHOUT sleeves. Pretty much every country's cards are such poor quality compared to Japan's. JPN have that protective coating on the front and back of the card that makes the card glossy, but at least it won't get nasty after months and months of playing the card without a sleeve. Look at a few junior decks that aren't sleeves. The cards are nearly destroyed.

Now I have to make sure my sleeves are 100% mint condition and do not have manufacturing errors (which apparently is pretty freaking common) at the start of every tournament? I think I'll end up having to buy new sleeves before EVERY event...

 

[SteveP]

....Paranoia? Or a reflection of players and TOs concerns and complaints to POP over issues they experience at events.
....
We get the penalties (society) we deserve. The decline starts with an abdication of personal and collective responsibility.

I work at a small university of about 9,000 students. My office connects to Student Debt Management (or in-house Collections). All day long I hear horror stories about how many students we have who don't pay their tuition.

Last week, I talked to a good friend who works at the University of Phoenix, a mostly-online school with an enrollment of nearly 500,000. Percentage-wise, their number of "collections" students are the same as ours (which is about 50 times the number of students as ours), yet they don't consider it as much a problem.

It's all a matter of perspective. The increase in cheaters is probably directly proportional to the player-growth. Plus, if you're directly involved with the cheaters, it's going to appear 10-times worse than it really is compared to a more macro-view of things.

Things happen. They've always happened. When PTOs get together and discuss things, things can get "blown out of porportion." That's what has happened here, IMO, with regards to the new "Marked Cards - Major" penalty.

And finally, Nopoke, I absolutely disagree with your "we get what we deserve" comment. Those who do bad things deserve to be punished. The innocent don't need to be taken down with them.

 

[NoPoke]

History tells us that it is ALWAYS the innocent who suffer. I don't like it one bit but that doesn't make it any less true.

You are correct that you need to be carefull when evaluating the demands of a small self-selecting group.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I sure as hell can't play WITHOUT sleeves. Pretty much every country's cards are such poor quality compared to Japan's. JPN have that protective coating on the front and back of the card that makes the card glossy, but at least it won't get nasty after months and months of playing the card without a sleeve. Look at a few junior decks that aren't sleeves. The cards are nearly destroyed.

Now I have to make sure my sleeves are 100% mint condition and do not have manufacturing errors (which apparently is pretty freaking common) at the start of every tournament? I think I'll end up having to buy new sleeves before EVERY event...

The USA cards are also glazed. They use a matt glaze rather than a gloss one.

Juniors destroy cards everywhere. I doubt that Japanese juniors are any more carefull of their cards.

We already use new sleeves before each tournament. The manufacturer only sells them as deck protection It can take several packs before 60 unmarked sleeves plus a few spares are ready for the deck.

 

[SteveP]

History tells us that it is ALWAYS the innocent who suffer. I don't like it one bit but that doesn't make it any less true.

In what context? Certainly, victims of crime are almost always the innocent. But that's not the context of this topic.

Our USA criminal justice system is keenly aware of how important it is to protect the innocent, so much so that criminals sometimes go free.

There should be a fine balance between catching the guilty and protecting the innocent, with the balance in favor of the latter.

This Marked Card - Major penalty is a "wide net" that is catching dolphins in addition to the tuna.