Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[vegitalian]

Vegitilian you reference yourself as: Gawain's brother (Gareth) rather than Gareth (Gawain’s Brother). This re-arranging of words implies some significance to Gawain, that he may be in the game.

I rearranged it because of the following rule. I didn't want to copy it exactly as stated in my role PM.

4e) Do not verbatim quote anything in your role PM, or fake doing so. You will almost certainly be modkilled if you do so. The same goes for notifications from the moderators of any kind, including any results from your roles. Posting things like "X is a wolf" is fine, even if it's in your result, or "I am town, etc.

My role does reference getting caught up in magic and beasts, but refers to me as a hero for protecting the locals. Note that this is not exactly as stated in my role PM for the same reasons stated above. Why would I purposely choose a character with a conflicted past? If I were lying, I would claim someone like King Arthur or Lancelot, would I not? I'm being honest, and whether you think Gareth is townie or wolf is up to you.

There are a lot of big posts going on, and big posts (while not always) can be a wolf tacit to pressure townies. If a townie responds with a large post, soon you have 2 (or more) players making very large posts, which adds a lot of confusion and pressures the outsiders to the argument to follow them, otherwise they often get lost in the debate. I'm not saying that any of the players making a big post IS a wolf, however, I think it would be wise to keep an eye on anyone consistently making excessively large posts.

Is 38 pages excessive? These are my thoughts exactly.

I'm not entirely sure about AT's "1-2-3" offer, but I still do think Vegitilian is the correct lynch for today. If Vegitilian flips wolf, then I think we should look more into AT's "1-2-3" wolf proposal. If Vegitilian flips town, we can look more into AT and view the entire argument AT vs. Vegi with the knowledge that Vegi was Town.

More later

What would we learn if AT flipped wolf? If he flipped townie? I'm interested in your take on it. If I flipped townie, would you be suspicious of AT?

I think that it could be faked. I have no proof to back it up, but I think we need to wait for vegi to post more before we decide. I want to hear more about this role from him, and I don't feel safe lynching until we do. If he doesn't say more, than I think he is by all means the correct lynch. Actually, right now, I think he is the proper lynch, I just want to hear more. I do plan on voting for him still, but I don't want a random rush of votes to lynch him while I'm not around, so for now:

Unvote: vegitalian

I still plan on voting for you, I just don't want you lynched just yet. I still think you should be lynched today, don't get me wrong.

I have shared more of the story above - I'm not sure if it's wise to reveal my night action at this point yet. What's the consensus? Will this hold sway, or will it paint a target on my back for the wolves if I don't get the lynch?

Not sure how this semi clears him. I could come out and say that I'm Lancelot, doesn't mean anything. You take his word for it after 2 people claim to have characters from the same dimension and only half an hour taking place. At the very least wait a little bit so that others can post before saying he's not a wolf.

It also doesn't help that Human Destroyer and Sheepbro were the 2 people to claim being from the same dimension. HD has been slightly iffy all game, then votes for vegi. As soon as vegi char claims he takes vegi's side and switches his vote. Sheepbro also agrees with vegi almost right after this char claim. All this happens within 30 min. Then they just so happen to be the only 2 that claim to have a Knights of the Round character? Seems fishy to me.

If we're talking knights of the round table, there could be several. I don't know how many more there are - I guess we'll see. I thought revealing this was the best course of action (at the very least townies in my dimension wouldn't vote me). It could also be people that aren't in the dimension trying to take some heat off, so you do have a valid point. If you guys lynch me before giving people time to come forward, that would be kind of pointless, though.

 

[Sandslash7]

Seriously? Are you just trolling or are you actually unable to grasp the concept of evidence?
If I see someone provide evidence for his innocence that I know is valid, of course I'm going to shift my suspicions.

Um, Lancelot ends up accidentally killing Gareth. Gawain ends up going to war against Lancelot and the Round Table ends up splitting up.

Also, saying that the the Knights of the Round Table is "towny" is a dumb argument. That's like saying that there were no wolves last game since Pokemon don't kill each other.

SMP makes a great point. Also, the WMAT talks at length of the ills of giving players "overtly townie/scummy names." It effectively makes "name seers" true seers, which drastically increases the number of powerful information roles in the game. I would be not prudent to immediately assume anything about someone's alignment just by knowing their name. This, coupled with Absol's post means we cannot trust the names of players to get their alignment. They may very well be the character they claim. Their alignment may be drastically different.


Vegi ~ I know I had a specific post in mind when I used HD as an example. The post escapes me, and I can only say that I've been very sleep deprived during my Fortnight of Death and cannot find it. (13 exams in 14 days). That said, my vote holds.

 

[vegitalian]

One more thing - if my character was wolf-aligned, I simply wouldn't have picked him. I would've chosen another character in the universe. Put yourself in my shoes as a townie, and then as a wolf. What would you have done if you had name-revealed?

 

[Absoltrainer]

One more thing - if my character was wolf-aligned, I simply wouldn't have picked him. I would've chosen another character in the universe. Put yourself in my shoes as a townie, and then as a wolf. What would you have done if you had name-revealed?

That's the problem, that's the very thing I mention above. We DON'T KNOW that you didn't do that. We have NO PROOF you are Gareth, only that you are from the dimension you say you are. Further the character you chose has a STRONG connection to the traitor Mordred, and it would not be a stretch to beleive that you ARE Mordred and chose Gareth. Thus why your reveal DOES NOT prove your innocencce an any way.

 

[SMP88]

One more thing - if my character was wolf-aligned, I simply wouldn't have picked him. I would've chosen another character in the universe. Put yourself in my shoes as a townie, and then as a wolf. What would you have done if you had name-revealed?

Why would you pick another character? If you pick someone else you run the risk of picking a character that someone else has. If you use the character you were given it's a guarantee that nobody else has that character.

Nothing you've said so far has swayed my vote from you.

 

[Human Destroyer]

@SS7:

Now, please note that this game was created before the metagame analysis thread, so no, not everything talked about made it into this game.

Yet, at the same time, lol @ AT for thinking character motivations in this game would be under the same flavor. If that were the case, Gareth would be dead.

Also, a lot of this role flavor of vegitalian's seems along the lines of mine. (Well, except for more character specific stuff, but I won't be telling you guys that just yet unless we decide on mass nameclaim, which is arguably useless this early in the game)

I'm still inclined to believe vegitalian. It's just too similar to not be true (unless he was provided with some sort of mod-confirmed safe fakeclaim or something).

 

[vegitalian]

That's the problem, that's the very thing I mention above. We DON'T KNOW that you didn't do that. We have NO PROOF you are Gareth, only that you are from the dimension you say you are. Further the character you chose has a STRONG connection to the traitor Mordred, and it would not be a stretch to beleive that you ARE Mordred and chose Gareth. Thus why your reveal DOES NOT prove your innocencce an any way.

Gareth is mentioned in my role PM (dimension-related, not role related).

I don't know King Arthur's story very well, but if I were a character in another dimension, I see two options:
1) I picked a seemingly minor character, that happens to turn up in someone else's story
2) Gareth is a major character and I run the risk of having the real Gareth hop on my bandwagon

Neither of which seem plausible. You can discount Sheepbro, but look at these four scenarios:
1) Both of us are wolves: Sheepbro would be protecting me when I'm close to being lynched, and putting himself on the chopping block the next day
2) I'm a wolf, he's a townie: Extremely unlikely that a townie would stick his neck out for a story that he couldn't confirm.
3) I'm a townie, he's a wolf: Possible (not making a claim here). Wolves may try to connect with townies to throw off the scent.
4) We're both townies: Also possible.

Scenarios 3 and 4 make the most sense in my mind - both of which paint me as a townie.

Why would you pick another character? If you pick someone else you run the risk of picking a character that someone else has. If you use the character you were given it's a guarantee that nobody else has that character.

Nothing you've said so far has swayed my vote from you.

If I come out with my present character, I run the risk that a wolf will say that they have the same character - no real difference either way.

 

[Absoltrainer]

Yet, at the same time, lol @ AT for thinking character motivations in this game would be under the same flavor. If that were the case, Gareth would be dead.

You are correct and this fact did not escape me.

Why would you pick another character? If you pick someone else you run the risk of picking a character that someone else has. If you use the character you were given it's a guarantee that nobody else has that character.

Would not the safest player to choose then be one that you KNOW is not in the game?
because he is dead?

But that gets deep as to assume the lores of these dimensions interact. There is no reason why Mordred and Gareth COULD NOT be in the same game. Mordred's treachery and desire to be King were not created upon Gareth's death, rather he used the death to further his goal. The motives are there:

After hearing a prophecy that a child born on May Day, as Mordred was, will destroy him and his kingdom, Arthur rounds up all the noble May Babies and sends them away on a rickety ship. The ship sinks, and the only child to survive is Mordred, who is rescued and eventually returned to his parents.

Mordred's motivations are not based with Gareth, they are based against Arthur.

 

[Sheepbro]

I'm not sticking my neck out, I'm just saying I think it's a bad idea to kill someone who may be a towney. I'm not entirely convinced you're speaking the truth, but it's convincing enough to make me want to hold off on lynching. I don't care too much if other people want to lynch you, I'm just saying I think jpulice is a better target at this point.

I should also clarify: I don't see his claim as hard evidence that he is a towney, I see it as hard evidence he's from my dimension and that evidence has made me doubt his wolfiness even more, to the point I don't want to lynch him today. There's a distinct difference.

 

[jellyfisher]

Um, Lancelot ends up accidentally killing Gareth. Gawain ends up going to war against Lancelot and the Round Table ends up splitting up.

Also, saying that the the Knights of the Round Table is "towny" is a dumb argument. That's like saying that there were no wolves last game since Pokemon don't kill each other.

It is not a dumb argument, it seems quite logical

Uh, actually, SMP88 is correct in saying that what you are assuming is a dumb argument. You can NOT assume that someone is a townie simply because of their name. I was a wolf last game. And guess what? I was a Castform. Now, would you really expect a Castform to go around killing other Pokemon? If you would like, I can give you another example of a wolf having a character that most would consider to be a townie.

@Vegitalian: I believe your name claim. In fact, I would be shocked if it turned out that you are not telling the truth. I am unsure why AT is trying to argue that you might be lying. However, before I even consider unvoting you, I would like you to answer this question. Do you believe that your name claim should clear you?

 

[vegitalian]

Uh, actually, SMP88 is correct in saying that what you are assuming is a dumb argument. You can NOT assume that someone is a townie simply because of their name. I was a wolf last game. And guess what? I was a Castform. Now, would you really expect a Castform to go around killing other Pokemon? If you would like, I can give you another example of a wolf having a character that most would consider to be a townie.

@Vegitalian: I believe your name claim. In fact, I would be shocked if it turned out that you are not telling the truth. I am unsure why AT is trying to argue that you might be lying. However, before I even consider unvoting you, I would like you to answer this question. Do you believe that your name claim should clear you?

To be honest, at the time I revealed my name, I wasn't aware of his history. I'm a townie (I know, I know - no proof) and assumed that my town-aligned character would be a 'good guy'. I believed that characters in this realm would know that I was telling the truth about my character, and that it would clear me with those players. Since my responses to questions weren't getting any attention or support, I decided to lay my cards on the table, and see where that would get me. At this point, what have I got to lose?

 

[Sheepbro]

Uh, actually, SMP88 is correct in saying that what you are assuming is a dumb argument. You can NOT assume that someone is a townie simply because of their name. I was a wolf last game. And guess what? I was a Castform. Now, would you really expect a Castform to go around killing other Pokemon? If you would like, I can give you another example of a wolf having a character that most would consider to be a townie.

Pokémon don't kill each other regardless. There's a huge difference between the two.
Again, I'm not "assuming" he's a towny, I'm only saying it would be logical if it were true. Anyway, I'll admit I was being a tiny bit irrational, but SMP88 calling me scummy for changing my opinion based on pretty clear evidence then proceeding to call me dumb rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[DragonClyne725]

What would we learn if AT flipped wolf? If he flipped townie? I'm interested in your take on it. If I flipped townie, would you be suspicious of AT?

If we were to lynch AT and he flipped wolf, I don't really see what we would learn. Yes, we would get a wolf, but so far he has managed to remain isolated from others, besides attacking Vablakes, Kayle and yourself. The question is, would AT (as a wolf) attack his fellow wolves in order to get them lynched and earn town cred. or help them get town cred. if he were lynched and flipped wolf? Possibly. Or would he have just been attacking Townies he thought he could make a case against and mislead the town? Possible, again.

Basic Point: If we were to try and determine alignment based off of AT's attacks on Kayle/Veg/Vablakes after him flipping Wolf, it would boil down to basic WIFOM.

If AT were lynched and flipped Town, I can see it helping us when going back through the Day's posts and seeing who he suspected and who seemed quick and eager to make a case against his accusations.

And if you flipped Town? Yes, I would say I would be suspicious of AT, though not entirely sold on him being a Wolf in return.

Pokémon don't kill each other regardless. There's a huge difference between the two.

You sure didn't see our last game on 'Gym. :lol:

 

[Absoltrainer]

@Vegitalian: I believe your name claim. In fact, I would be shocked if it turned out that you are not telling the truth. I am unsure why AT is trying to argue that you might be lying. However, before I even consider unvoting you, I would like you to answer this question. Do you believe that your name claim should clear you?

-Because I find it just too convenient that Gareth has such a vital connection to Mordred, arguably the biggest King Arthur villain.
-I also find it convenient that he chose a character who has a low chance of appearing in the game because he could be dead (assuming lore interacts)
-Even more so because there are MULTIPLE Kind Arthur characters in this game.
-Even more so because apparently Gareth has appeared in other people’s role PMs
-His name claim aside, Vegitalian’s actions are still as scummy and suspicious as they were before he claimed.

After hearing a prophecy that a child born on May Day, as Mordred was, will destroy him and his kingdom, Arthur rounds up all the noble May Babies and sends them away on a rickety ship. The ship sinks, and the only child to survive is Mordred, who is rescued and eventually returned to his parents.

Some years later Gareth is killed accidentally (along with his brother Gaheris) by Lancelot, during the rescue of Guinevere. This leads to the final tragedy of Arthur's Round Table; Gawain refuses to allow King Arthur (his uncle) to accept Lancelot's sincere apology for the deaths of his two brothers. Lancelot genuinely mourns the death of Gareth, whom he loved like a son, or perhaps younger brother. But Arthur is forced by Gawain's and Mordred's insistence to go to war against Lancelot, (although Mordred's grief is largely faked, driven by his desire to become king). This leads to the splitting of the Round Table; Mordred's treachery in trying to seize Guinevere and the throne; Gawain's death from an old unhealed wound; and finally, Arthur and Mordred slaying each other in a last battle.

Honestly had he been pretty much any other knight, I would not be pursuing this, but his connection to Mordred reads very scummy to me. If Vegitalian KNEW Gareth would be a safe choice because of info his role PM gave him, he would go for it.

Also this does not excuse Vegitalian scummy actions prior to the reveal. While I believe he is from that dimension, I do not believe he is innocent.

 

[Pikamaster]

VOTE COUNT:
45 Remaining
23 to lynch

Vegitalian- 13 ( Absoltrainer, Prohawk, Dragonclyne725, Jellyfisher, SMP88, Waynegg, Pokemonfreak5, Desufnoc, Scorri, Sandslash7, Pokemonplayer101, Eclipse, Shinori)
Kayle- 1 (Tables)
Prohawk- 2 (Crimsonsky, Luster Purge)
Vablakes- 1 (G landers)
Human Destroyer- 1 (Jpulice)
Jpulice- 3 (Thunderjolt, Sheepbro, Human Destroyer)
StrongRhino- 1 (TheKing)
Your Face- 1 (Jason)
Absoltrainer- 9 (Butter nut ninja, JewelQuest, PikaJewel, StrongRhino, Vegitalian, Diaz, Kayle, Benzo, Glaceon)


Just a reminder to you guys, the day ends tomorrow at 11:59 PM (EST). Whether or not LEX or I are around to "officially" end the day, that is when it ends, unless a lynch has been reached before then.

 

[Vablakes]

I think it's a bad idea to kill someone who may be a towney.

Anyone might be townie. Anyone might be a wolf. If we are going by your logic, we will never get anywhere. Townies get lynched. It happens. It is not a bad idea to lynch someone who is acting like scum. It is a bad idea to lynch someone who leans town. I'm not saying JP does, heck, I'm not saying that anyone does.

Vegitalian, you still seem like you really need to be lynched. I don't believe that you are Gareth, and until you can prove otherwise, I will be voting for you. Mostly because of the reasons I listed before.

Vote: vegitalian

 

[Sheepbro]

Not sure if I should stick my neck out for vegi for if he flips wolf, but my PM mentions Gareth in a way that makes me believe he's still alive. I'm not sure, but that's the impression I got.

 

[vegitalian]

Anyone might be townie. Anyone might be a wolf. If we are going by your logic, we will never get anywhere. Townies get lynched. It happens. It is not a bad idea to lynch someone who is acting like scum. It is a bad idea to lynch someone who leans town. I'm not saying JP does, heck, I'm not saying that anyone does.

Vegitalian, you still seem like you really need to be lynched. I don't believe that you are Gareth, and until you can prove otherwise, I will be voting for you. Mostly because of the reasons I listed before.

Vote: vegitalian

Going by your logic, you should've been lynched about 13 pages back (when you had accumulated 8 votes). AbsolTrainer is acting like scum. Saying 'it happens' is not a valid excuse for lynching a townie - actually believing I'm scum is.

 

[Sheepbro]

Anyone might be townie. Anyone might be a wolf. If we are going by your logic, we will never get anywhere. Townies get lynched. It happens. It is not a bad idea to lynch someone who is acting like scum. It is a bad idea to lynch someone who leans town. I'm not saying JP does, heck, I'm not saying that anyone does.

I think it's a worse idea to lynch someone you don't see as scummy than to hold back on someone you don't see as particularly towny. Null reads should never be voted for in my opinion.

 

[vegitalian]

I know this is going to work against me, but I want to put this logic out there:

If AbsolTrainer is a wolf, and I am a townie, he would know that I am townie. He would also probably know that when my role was revealed that with him being the primary aggressor, it would look extremely bad on him (resulting in a high propbability of being voted the next day). For this reason, I believe that he actually thinks I am a wolf and that he leans town, despite some hints of scum I've picked up.

UNVOTE: AbsolTrainer

I'm going to ask this as a general question. Who's a good 3rd potential candidate that I could vote for? Where have they acted scummy?

I'm a bit lost, and would like to get some peoples' reads - before I get lynched, if possible.