Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[eclipse]

My inner Yu-Gi-Oh! fan insists that Gareth is a Lightsworn.

I think it's a worse idea to lynch someone you don't see as scummy than to hold back on someone you don't see as particularly towny. Null reads should never be voted for in my opinion.

I disagree; if said null read will help me solidify reads on other people in the game, OR if it's a choice between a null read and No Lynch/a town read, I lynch the null read.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't soft clear vegi just because 2 people claim they're from the same dimension. These also happen to be the same 2 people who moved away from a vegi vote directly after he claimed.

There's also nothing that says that wolves and town can't be from the same dimension. Any of those 3 may be town, that doesn't mean 1 of them can't be a wolf.

I can see the town motivation behind both of those players doing that. As both of them are on my do-not-lynch-today list, I'm willing to believe them, even if scumhunting by flavor isn't something I endorse. With that being said:

Unvote vegitalian
Vote Vablakes

This is not a good reaction to a vote (this needs to be read complete with the quote in the post). You weren't exactly cleared because of your earlier antics; instead, AbsolTrainer pushed his case on vegitalian, and you fell out of the spotlight. Also:

I don't even know what would convince me that you are a townie.

Why is your opinion of vegitalian so important? You are one voice out of 45.

Normally, I have time on the weekends, but my mom needs my assistance with something. I don't know how much time I can dedicate to this game.

 

[Crimsonsky]

http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2364399&postcount=569

"You have some way to "attack/retaliate" if targeted. Not good again for us townies, and now wolves/unfreindlies will not target you and focus elsewhere, when you should be a suprise to who ever, regardless of their alience. Everyone needs to be able to play there part, in a way this robbed us townies of having your role work in our favor, even with the risk factor that is suposed to be unintentional on your part. This is a game, games have risk and gambles in them for the most part, and it is not like some one will hate you or something afterwords or anything. Besides- if a townie did target you, got the side effect/risk and it is not ale to help the town, then the next night, a wolf/unfriendly targets you- then you could/should speak up and say it was you that got the wolf- (well, unless you are really a wolf/unfriendly right now)- but anyways- your bad news right now to me, and I do not want to "risk" letting you live as I can not trust your word right at this time."

firstly this is incredibly bad townie meta, or in other words pure scum meta. Why the heck would I care to take credit for screwing up someone at night??
The only people who need to get themselves to seem clear are scum and I specially have no intention of getting credit for something that happened randomly from my point of view.

As for the reason to suddenly out your reads, it only helps the scum because scum can kill the people the non scum find townier and near the end of the game, you find out that there are more people you have a null read on alive than people you find townier
also, when you say X is likely to be town, and X is actually scum, it might end up being that X tries less harder to blend in and people find it harder to catch her/him in the act.
and for scum, it is an easy way to act like contributing by dropping town and null reads all the time and at the same time getting on other people's good sides
IMO, the only time you should out reads is when you strongly dislike a lynch and want to change the target to someone else
OR,
when you think your reads are gonna help other town roles move forward
OR
You realize you are gonna die (getting lynched implies here too) and let others know your thoughts.

anyways, moving on

I don't think claiming a character name changes anything
in most games at SF, we are given fake claims to use so, we normally out our role name and character at once.
the way Vegitalian broke down was scummy and I do think we will gain most info from his lynch
if we have a vig, we should let her/him handle Vablakes.
Unvote: ProHawk
Vote: Vegitalian

 

[Sheepbro]

Wow Vablakes, that was... Strange. Completely flipped around and "townies die", really?
You were never off my radar and I think you have dug your own grave in the past few posts.
UNVOTE: Jpulice
VOTE: Vablakes
To explain what I meant with not wanting to lynch possible townies, I meant people that give evidence that (even if it is indirectly) point to them being town. I put it this way because I'm not sure if vegitalian is town and he's still on my radar, but his claim pretty much guarantees he's from the same universe, so I don't want to lynch him today.

 

[jellyfisher]

Sure, I'll go along with lynching Vablakes.

Unvote: Vegitalian

Vote: Vablakes

 

[PMysterious]

Works for me.

Vote: Vablakes

Let's at least try to go for a lynch.

 

[DarthPika]

After skimming over the last 8 pages or so, here's my thoughts on where we currently stand.

That's the problem, that's the very thing I mention above. We DON'T KNOW that you didn't do that. We have NO PROOF you are Gareth, only that you are from the dimension you say you are. Further the character you chose has a STRONG connection to the traitor Mordred, and it would not be a stretch to beleive that you ARE Mordred and chose Gareth. Thus why your reveal DOES NOT prove your innocencce an any way.

It doesn't matter if he is or isn't who he says to be. It's very possible that he really is Gareth, since it can be rather risky to claim someone else from your universe considering that someone else might have it and claim it for them selves. If that happens, you're in a pretty bad situation. I believe that he probably is Gareth. HOWEVER, I will stress that no significance should be put into who a character is. We can not just assume that a character is town, wolf, or otherwise simply based on WHO they are as a character from some universe. Yes, there may be a few obvious ones (e.g. if there were a Hades would probably be wolf), but those people would likely have another claim anyway from another universe so that there was little risk in someone having the actual character. In other words, the characters at the extreme ends of the good/bad spectrum are probably pretty solid guesses, but those players will have more exotic claims ready to go. The characters in the mid ground can swing either way, and we can NOT base anything off their roles by who they are.

Lazy persons version: Don't judge anything by name claims alone.

Why would you pick another character? If you pick someone else you run the risk of picking a character that someone else has. If you use the character you were given it's a guarantee that nobody else has that character.

Nothing you've said so far has swayed my vote from you.

See above.

Anyone might be townie. Anyone might be a wolf. If we are going by your logic, we will never get anywhere. Townies get lynched. It happens. It is not a bad idea to lynch someone who is acting like scum. It is a bad idea to lynch someone who leans town. I'm not saying JP does, heck, I'm not saying that anyone does.

Vegitalian, you still seem like you really need to be lynched. I don't believe that you are Gareth, and until you can prove otherwise, I will be voting for you. Mostly because of the reasons I listed before.

Vote: vegitalian

Here's the post everyone is currently making a big fuss over. I'm not going to pretend that Vablakes is playing well by any means, however, I do not have a scum vibe from this post. To me, this looks like a new player pointing out some thoughts (in his defense, Townies DO get lynched), and then certain players jumping on him and trying to corner and pin him for a few phrases that are later taken out of context. I decided to break the post down, and look at the different parts of it.

My comments in bold.

Anyone might be townie. Anyone might be a wolf. If we are going by your logic, we will never get anywhere. Townies get lynched. It happens. Here is what everyone is taking out of context. When you take it out of context, it looks quite bad on its own. However, when you look at it with the following: It is not a bad idea to lynch someone who is acting like scum. It is a bad idea to lynch someone who leans town. To me, he seems to only be stating what is pretty obvious. In the early game, we must lynch someone. We lynch that person based on if they're leaning scum or town. Obviously, it's a good idea to lynch the person who is leaning scum over the person who is leaning town. To pull in his previous, "townies get lynched" statement, townies DO get lynched. Just because we vote for the person who leans scum doesn't negate the fact that most of the time we're only lynching a townie that got caught in a bad situation. I'm not saying JP does, heck, I'm not saying that anyone does.

Vegitalian, you still seem like you really need to be lynched. I don't believe that you are Gareth, and until you can prove otherwise, I will be voting for you. Mostly because of the reasons I listed before.

Nothing wrong with sticking by his vote. He honestly has very little reason to change his vote, simply because vegitalian made a name claim that cannot prove anything about his role.

Vote: vegitalian

I would like to look at another one of Vablakes posts, where he is responding to an attack by vegitalian.

Replies in bold. Also, my opinion as to why you are pointing your finger at me. It is an OMGUS against me. You also saw that I made some mistakes earlier in the game and are bringing them up now, to put pressure on people that aren't you.

This is a fairly normal response from a new townie when suddenly under attack. He's making some valid points as well. Vegetalian IS attacking him for earlier mistakes (which I do not believe lean scum) and vegi IS obviously going to want to put pressure on people who aren't him.

You know you are getting lynched, and you are just trying to convince people that I'm not town, which I am. I'm sure know that, too, since I am 99% sure that you are a wolf. Instead of pointing your finger at me and taking a sentence out of context to make me look scummy, why don't you give us a reason not to lynch you?

Again, this looks like a new townie that is under attack. It doesn't read scum to me.

Because all you have done so far is what you accused me of in your post: trying to take the heat off of yourself. Instead of attacking others, why don't you defend yourself? Give us some proof that you are town. Your whole post just made my vote for you even less likely to go away.

While he never made a good defense for him self, I still do not think that this leans scum. Usually a wolf will be scrambling to defend him self. This to me looks much more like a townie that is getting cornered by a wolf (or probably wolves at this point), and is trying to defend him self from it.

That "innoccent new player" feel is missing from his writing tone.

The more I look at his old posts and his new ones, the more I agree with Prohawk: Coaching
If Vablakes flips scum I will very much consider that Vegitilian is indeed town and perhaps we were both being taken advantage of. In fact if Vablakes flips scum, we should go back and see who and more importantly HOW people supported the Vegitilian vote. If I was wrong (and I very well MIGHT have been) we might have had wolves trying to add to the fire.

I said before, I don't like admitting I'm wrong, anyone following this thread should know that by now. If something is making me consider it, it might be looking into.

I don't see much wrong with his writing tone. He sounds like a new player who has some good observations, but still is making rookie mistakes. Remember when Diaz first played? He played much the same way. I do not think that his play style is any grounds to lynch him yet.

I'm also not convinced on the coaching thing. He looks like a legitimate new player who has done studying and has a good idea of what the game is about, but is still making mistakes.

I do agree with you though that if Vablakes does actually flip scum, that we should thoroughly look at the posts made against vegitalian (and how people interacted with Vablakes) and see if we can find other wolves. However, I do think he's going to flip town. If he flips town, I think it would be wise to look at the key arguments against Vablakes, and see if we can find any wolves there, since I'm quite sure there's at least a few by now that have hopped on his bandwagon.

As for my vote, I retracted my vote for Vablakes a while ago. I still do not think that he is the best lynch, as we'll likely only be lynching a townie that got caught in a bad position. I'm not so fond of simply dropping vegitalian off the radar though. Especially considering how he is currently attacking Vablakes. I don't think he's cleared him self simply by posting a name reveal, and I don't think we should let him go so quickly.

Vote: vegitalian

 

[DragonClyne725]

I agree with what DP is saying (post #726).

The argument being used against Vablakes at the moment seems (to me, at least) to be "You were acting scummy before, and suddenly Vegitilian is Town, so we need someone to vote for". I do not think Vegitilian's name claim suddenly clears him as Town.

While I don't necessarily agree with Vablakes' "Acting scummy to draw out scum" plan from before, I'm not getting a scum vibe of off his posts. All this attention thrown on Vablakes seems to me like a last minute attempt to save Vegitilian, which I find strange since I still do not trust him.

For now, I keep my vote for Vegitilian as I still suspect him and think he is the correct lynch for this Day.

 

[ProHawk]

DC725 - I would like to see your comments on his recent posts please. The past only confirms what is happening in the present.

 

[Human Destroyer]

DP hit the nail on the head pretty much. I honestly have nothing to add. I still kind of have that gut feeling that vegitalian will flip town though.

I'm only willing to change my vote if it's required for the lynch (which it might be).

 

[vegitalian]

I don't think claiming a character name changes anything
in most games at SF, we are given fake claims to use so, we normally out our role name and character at once.

This is not Serene Forest. I've only received one claim, no fake claim. Anyone who received their role PM without a fake claim knows this is true.

the way Vegitalian broke down was scummy and I do think we will gain most info from his lynch
if we have a vig, we should let her/him handle Vablakes.
Unvote: ProHawk
Vote: Vegitalian

I wasn't sure whether the first part of your post was directed at me or not. I do think that the Vablakes flip will reveal a lot. Most of my interactions have been between Kayle and AT. Vablakes has been actively arguing/agreeing with a wider array of players in the game. Personally, I'm not voting him because I think his flip will reveal a lot; I'm reading his posts as scummy.

Here's the post everyone is currently making a big fuss over. I'm not going to pretend that Vablakes is playing well by any means, however, I do not have a scum vibe from this post. To me, this looks like a new player pointing out some thoughts (in his defense, Townies DO get lynched), and then certain players jumping on him and trying to corner and pin him for a few phrases that are later taken out of context. I decided to break the post down, and look at the different parts of it.

He stated a fact... that townies get lynched, but it was the tone it was written in that reads scummy. I'll remind you that people read scum on Vablakes way before this post. On page 15, he was up to 8 votes, and he fell off the radar when I started my feud with AT.

I do agree with you though that if Vablakes does actually flip scum, that we should thoroughly look at the posts made against vegitalian (and how people interacted with Vablakes) and see if we can find other wolves. However, I do think he's going to flip town. If he flips town, I think it would be wise to look at the key arguments against Vablakes, and see if we can find any wolves there, since I'm quite sure there's at least a few by now that have hopped on his bandwagon.

As for my vote, I retracted my vote for Vablakes a while ago. I still do not think that he is the best lynch, as we'll likely only be lynching a townie that got caught in a bad position. I'm not so fond of simply dropping vegitalian off the radar though. Especially considering how he is currently attacking Vablakes. I don't think he's cleared him self simply by posting a name reveal, and I don't think we should let him go so quickly.

Vote: vegitalian

The impression I'm getting from a lot of posters is that I didn't drop off the radar. Even if Vablakes does get lynched, if he flips town I go back to being the #1 suspect. I legitimately believe he's scum.

 

[Sheepbro]

The impression I'm getting from a lot of posters is that I didn't drop off the radar. Even if Vablakes does get lynched, if he flips town I go back to being the #1 suspect. I legitimately believe he's scum.

Pretty much that, yeah.

 

[ProHawk]

@DP -

Can you comment on the change of Vablakes writing tone? (Which was what Absol's point actually was).

Ironic that you claim people are taking Vablakes out of context when your out of context quote of Absol's point looks way more suspect to me.

 

[Human Destroyer]

I don't think that was taken out of context at all. I don't see why an "innocent new player" can't decide to take a stance.

Sure, he's not being submissive anymore, but it's possible he realized "Wait a second, this submissive playstyle? It ain't working. Let's change."

Coaching is a large assumption to make IMO. A player can improve on his/her own if they try.

 

[ProHawk]

Original Quote V

This is Vablakes responding to my GIANT post where I call him a wolf and connect him to Vegitilian as the main factor. http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2364773&postcount=630

Note the tone of writing, the word-choice, the submissive tone, and finally the fact that he sides with me.

Compared to:



Defensive, slighly aggressive, frustrated.

That "innoccent new player" feel is missing from his writing tone.

The more I look at his old posts and his new ones, the more I agree with Prohawk: Coaching
If Vablakes flips scum I will very much consider that Vegitilian is indeed town and perhaps we were both being taken advantage of. In fact if Vablakes flips scum, we should go back and see who and more importantly HOW people supported the Vegitilian vote. If I was wrong (and I very well MIGHT have been) we might have had wolves trying to add to the fire.

I said before, I don't like admitting I'm wrong, anyone following this thread should know that by now. If something is making me consider it, it might be looking into.

VS DP's edit. V

That "innoccent new player" feel is missing from his writing tone.

The more I look at his old posts and his new ones, the more I agree with Prohawk: Coaching
If Vablakes flips scum I will very much consider that Vegitilian is indeed town and perhaps we were both being taken advantage of. In fact if Vablakes flips scum, we should go back and see who and more importantly HOW people supported the Vegitilian vote. If I was wrong (and I very well MIGHT have been) we might have had wolves trying to add to the fire.

I said before, I don't like admitting I'm wrong, anyone following this thread should know that by now. If something is making me consider it, it might be looking into.

Notice the point of the original post versus the point that DP wants to highlight. They aren't the same. You didn't take it out of context HD, your answer looks at both points. DP's however doesn't.

 

[Kayle]

unvote: Absoltrainer
vote: Vablakes

I really like AT's observations on Vablakes' playing and posting styles and the way they have changed throughout the game; I was noticing it too but didn't really have the knowledge or foresight or whatever to actually put a name to it (coaching?). I'll admit to some tunnel vision on the matter as well.

I'm having trouble following the thread atm between everything else I have to do but Prohawk's been asking some questions that I will use to add my thoughts rather than just leaping onto a lynch wagon. I do agree with this lynch for now, it will give us a lot of places to start looking for more definite scum leads than we have whether or not Vablakes is scum (which it looks like he might be), and that's a good d1 lynch to me.

As for recent posts, I stand by Vegitalian's reveal being very newbtown to me, and I really dislike the huge reaction it got (which was to say, all of the confusion and KotR debate that took place). I feel like the uselessness of the reveal should have been obvious to everyone, but I guess not. We don't know that Vegitalian is town or scum based on the name his character might be; this early in the game, reveals are pretty much unconfirmable, from what I understand.

The sudden Vablakes wagon has me very nervous. Sheepbro and I are the only ones that have unvoted someone other than Vegitalian to vote for Vablakes. Everyone has either been no-vote for a while or has been on Vegitalian and is now switching. This, combined with how fast the votes have happened (I can see 90% at least of the conversation in the last 25 posts and that unnerves me), really makes me feel like we are being pulled and shoved around by wolves. Not only do I fear for the manipulation that may be taking place, I also fear that wolves may actually be pushing to lynch one of their own in an attempt to salvage some credibility from today. There's no way to know for sure, even after we see Vablakes' flip, and everything about that really makes me nervous.

I know I just said I agree with the lynch for now, but at the same time, I really worry about the conditions under which it is taking place. I don't really know what kind of action I would want taken on it but I just feel too uneasy not to say anything.

 

[scorri]

UNVOTE: VEGITALIAN
VOTE: VABLAKES

scorri believes that this will give us useful information and has a probably chance of hitting a wolf. scorri is currently unwilling to lynch vegitalian due to the way the claim occured.

Everyone here is probably a character from something. Scorri is probably either Dobby the house elf or the little dude from Lord of the Rings. (Did she claim and I missed it?) That's pretty obvious. I know I'm someone from something (this is intentially vauge).
If everyone has a character, then both vanillas and power roles are characters. This means that revealing the name of a character isn't bad, because it doesn't give the wolves much. I'll concede that we shouldn't do this very often, but if there's a time to do it, it is now. I'd be willing to bet that there are things in the game design aimed at making mass name-claiming an invalid strategy (ever since the ww metagame thread).

scorri does not like this one bit. scorri first sees an attempt to get info about her name/role by Diaz and then scorri sees an attempt to get everyone to nameclaim. scorri sees that Diaz claims he wants zero information about roles, but scorri also believes that names have a distinct possibility of having to do with roles. scorri is a little surprised that no one else mentioned anything about this. scorri will be keeping an eye on Diaz in the future.

 

[Shinori]

Eclipse points out something wierd about random person!

SHEEP IT.
##Unvote: Vegitalian.
##Vote: Vablakes.

Lynch for info. Lynch for info.

Still think one of Vegi/absol need to die, pretty sure one of these two is scum and there is a whole lot of info and connections here.

 

[Kayle]

Scorri needs to remember to bold her votes. ;P Same for Shinori. Don't like your minimalist post either Shinori.

 

[scorri]

scorri is posting again to bold her vote and to allow Shinori to bold his vote.

UNVOTE: VEGITALIAN
VOTE: VABLAKES

 

[Shinori]

##Unvote: Vegitalian.
##Vote: Vablakes

Bolding is hard. Mkay.