What do you do when the trust is broken among League members?

[PokePal0314]

So, I go to a few Leagues a week. Anywhere from two to three, all run by the same guy.

At this one League I go to each Saturday, a few weeks ago, a deck was stolen. After checking the surveillance cameras, no one was seen taking my friends deck inside the store. (They're cameras only view the inside, and only a small area.)

Now, last week, one of my decks were stolen. I was extremely upset, so I called my League Organizer, and told him. He sent out an email, to each person on his Pokemon mailing list. Now, this Saturday, (yesterday) there was a person I noticed, that had all of the same cards that were in my deck. The Lv. X, the trainer/supporters, etc. Just in different card cases. So, now, my League Organizer and I are going to watch the surveillance tapes and see if our suspicions are correct, and if my deck had been taken by the person. But, whether or not it had or hadn't, how do you re-foster trust and relationships you've made with others in League?

Now, that everyone basically has to guard there stuff with their lives, League isn't really fun. Some people have decided against coming to League, or just bringing the bare necessities with them. If a trade is to be done, the two meet at their homes or something.

Is our trust and family-atmosphere just going to remain broken now? Can we repair it?

What would you guys do in this situation, and can you share your thoughts on it, please?

Thanks,
PokePal.

Edit:
Sorry if this was posted in the wrong category, but I wasn't sure exactly where to post it.

 

[AyameHikaru]

It's always a difficult situation when something like this comes up. Make sure you have the right person, first. If they did in fact steal, ban them from the league, and ask the store owner to ban them from the store.

Then, you can talk to your league. I'd suggest speaking frankly. Just say, you know, there was a thief, that person has been caught and won't be coming back. Don't mention any names, the observant ones will put it together if they want to. Remind the league that stealing as absolutely not tolerated, that there are surveillance cameras up for that particular reason. Then say that if a person really needs cards, to talk to you and you'll see about helping them out. Then.... pretend like nothing happened.

That's what I'd do.

 

[amphachu]

This was actually happening at the Friday night Magic I used to go to untill the store closed. A group of kids that we didnt know one day stole someones fat pack stuffed with cards, and they also stole like >$100 worth of packs from the store.

 

[charcharchar]

Well, I've had looots of things stolen from me. I guess I'm a good target... I've had a car broken into, a backpack rifled through, a dorm room sacked, been pick-pocketed...

There is some good that you can take from having something stolen: You know how closely to keep an eye on your things now. My friends and I have from the start been guarded with our possessions at league. Plain and simple, you just don't know where the people at league are coming from, and people who steal... also lie, and it's hard to tell a thief on the surface.

As far as getting over... You just will. You can't blame everyone at league for one person's stupid mistake, but that doesn't mean you need to trust them with your life, either.

Having something stolen really, REALLY sucks, but you get over it. You just have to.
BUT- you will probably never treat your possessions the same ever again, as well you shouldn't- they'll eventually get stolen again.

in short... You'll be fine

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

Mount evidence against suspect.
Lifetime ban suspect if proven.
Carry on, and stay vigilant.

 

[ShadowCard]

I'd have to start with the ages of the people involved. If the act wasn't malicious and everyone learns from it, forgives, and moves past it, then all you need is time. If it is serious, trust is one of those things that once broken has to be earned back.

On topic of recovery of items, I prefer to use a "return it no questions asked" approach. Make an announcement that something was missing, and that anyone who finds it (don't accuse anyone of intentionally taking it) just needs to turn it in and say that they found it. I don't want anyone to feel they may get in trouble for turning in something lost because I would rather have the items recovered. They may really have accidentally picked it up in a rush to leave because they finished late.

In your case, PokePal0314, you have surveillance so I guess you could go with the "we know who did it so that person needs to come speak to us to correct this mistake." Whether or not you know for sure, you could use subtle ways of letting the person know that you know, such as pointing out notable cards, to test their response. Say things like "Oh, that Luxray-GL lvX is a great card, isn't it? I had one last week but now I can't find it" or "hey, Johnny was using a deck just like that--I hear it is kind of difficult to play, what do you think?" or "that deck is a good idea, when did you think of it?" Basically, throw attention to that player and then see what he/she does next.
Depending on the person's age and how you feel about the intent, speaking with the parents and discussing suspension from league may be an option. Emphasize that a mistake was made, in this case leaving league with someone else's belongings, but such a mistake will not happen again. You may need to switch to passive tense so you don't set up a barrier between you and the player--so, "a mistake was made" instead of "you made a mistake" or "This deck was taken without permission" instead of "You took this deck without permission." Highlight that there are ways to turn in "found" items, such as alerting the LL, and that leaving the league with someone else's belongings is not acceptable and that it makes it difficult for people to trust that person. Remind the player that the League and Store have rules regarding taking other people's cards. Switch to active tense here so that the person knows they are able to make the choice to do the right thing-- "you can turn in missing cards to the LL" or "By continuing to come to League you agree to the rules" or "we want to trust you and you can help us do that." Let the person know that mistakes may happen, but they have the ability to fix those mistakes, take responsibility, and do the right thing. If you feel that the person is unreceptive to what you're saying, banning the person may be necessary.

Now, that everyone basically has to guard there stuff with their lives,

I hate to say it, but league should ALWAYS be this way. You should never feel that it is safe to leave your stuff on the opposite side of the room; you should never feel that it is safe to leave your binder open to the lvX page while you go to visit the bathroom.
This doesn't necessarily reflect on the people at league. Think about people who walk through who aren't in your league. If you're in a store, customers may be walking through your league area to look at products and kids they have with them may decide to go flipping through your open binder. All of a sudden, your Luxray-GL lvX is missing and someone accuses a league member because they've forgotten that the league area is open to anyone who wants to walk through.
Carrying more stuff than you can keep an eye on is always a bad idea: may you be shopping or playing Pokemon at league. You may know everyone of those league players, but you don't know the people who are walking through the league area.

Overall: never leave binders out and unsupervised, even in the middle of a trade. If you have to walk away, close the binder. Always keep binders, decks, or single cards in your backpack/case when not in use. Always take your backpack/case with you from table to table wherever you go.

 

[Trican]

I tend to agree with the "If it appears it appears" approach. I would giving a time line however "A deck came up missing if it is turned in by the end of league today..." would be better. A couple months back I noticed a player slipping cards from a binder, a Registeel, and putting it into their deck stack. I let the person's book know what happened in case I didn't notice a trade. It went pretty well the guy simply asked "Hey I noticed my Registeel was missing has anyone seen it?" The kid kind of got quiet and tried to look innocent. He waited a few minutes "If you took my Registeel please let me know I'm sure it was an honest mistake." Well the kid returned the card, and our LL let his mother know. The mother kept the kid from league from a month, and bought him in to make an example of her son to the other members.

Its not fun to be the example, but we have yet to have a direct theft since then. We have had to discuss fair trading amongst players, but that is another story for another day.

 

[PokePal0314]

Well, I had typed up a long response, but when I went to hit quick reply, I guess I had stayed on the page for too long and it said I wasn't signed in. I hate it when that happens, don't you guys?

Anywho, we found who had taken it on camera.

Everyone had been told, via email, and personal phone call, that if they returned the deck, nothing would happen, but if they had not, and they were found to have taken it on camera, criminal charges would be pressed, and there would have been repercussions. It was a senior player, they were 15. They had completely known what would have been done if they hadn't returned it. But, is a ban from all of the Leagues hosted by our LL, and banned from the store in which it happened, truly fair? One bad mistake and all of that happens?

What are your thoughts on the punishment? And did it fit the crime?

 

[SD PokeMom]

theft is a one strike and you're out imho...especially when you have video proof. 15 is WAY old enough to know better, again imo; this isn't a little kid with impulse control issues who is unclear on the concept of 'mine vs. yours'.

punishment fits the crime imo. and if the ban from the store prevents them from participating in pres, CCs or BRs held in the store...oh well; bed. made. lie.

jmho
'mom

 

[Happiny13]

A ban from a store and League is more than fair considering he broke a law. His parents should be informed, and maybe the police, depending on varying factors.

 

[Sabett]

theft is a one strike and you're out imho...especially when you have video proof. 15 is WAY old enough to know better, again imo; this isn't a little kid with impulse control issues who is unclear on the concept of 'mine vs. yours'.

punishment fits the crime imo. and if the ban from the store prevents them from participating in pres, CCs or BRs held in the store...oh well; bed. made. lie.

jmho
'mom

On the other hand, if he were to be sincere in an apology, would it be so terrible to forgive him? Why so hasty for justice? We all make mistakes from time to time. Is there anyone on this entire forum that can say they have never done something they later regret in their life? Wouldn't you have liked it if those you wronged forgave you and all could be forgotten? Don't be so quick to condemn this person you don't even know. We're all people, we all do bad things.

Besides, what are the chances this person will do the same thing again? I mean there's already threats of getting the police involved. And if he did steal again that would probably show that he does have a problem with stealing, given the shown penalties that have presented themselves.

 

[Mach]

Trust is like a mirror. Once it's broken, it can be fixed, but you can always see every little crack that was made. I actually haven't been to league on a regular basis for 7+ months because I can't trust my local LL to be honest with me. Not having anything to do with stolen cards or anything, just on a personal level.

 

[Trican]

I feel 15 is an age where he knew what he did. Hes done what he did. If the league leader would like to allow him back after a period that is their decision. A sincere apology when the thief was given a chance to repent would mean nothing to me. They had their chance to return the property, they didn't. I think had the thief been given a chance and apologized at that point then yes they are sorry.

Think of it like this midterm of school comes up and the teacher/professor says next class they'll accept your late assignments. You don't turn in your missing assignments. The end of the term comes up and you notice you're failing. If you turned in the missing assignments you'd pull a passing grade. You go to the teacher/professor and say "I'm really sorry I didn't turn in my assignments on time can I pweeeease turn them in now?"

You know you're not sorry for not turning them in, but when faced with the consequences you realize it. If you had felt bad about the assignments they'd have been turned in midterm. As a teacher I had that sort of policy and had both types. Being a new teacher I allowed the type who asked pweeease at the end of the quarter once, and gave them the two days and they still didn't turn it in. So no they weren't really sorry. This was middle school age children so about the same age as the kid in question.

 

[charcharchar]

On the other hand, if he were to be sincere in an apology, would it be so terrible to forgive him? Why so hasty for justice? We all make mistakes from time to time. Is there anyone on this entire forum that can say they have never done something they later regret in their life? Wouldn't you have liked it if those you wronged forgave you and all could be forgotten? Don't be so quick to condemn this person you don't even know. We're all people, we all do bad things.

Besides, what are the chances this person will do the same thing again? I mean there's already threats of getting the police involved. And if he did steal again that would probably show that he does have a problem with stealing, given the shown penalties that have presented themselves.

Um, yeah.
The kid stole something.
Maybe even twice, according to the story.
Yes, he deserved to be banned from league. You can be banned from tournaments by cheating at a card game, stealing is much worse than that.
No, the kid is not a terrible person forever because he stole some pokemon cards, but 15 is an age where your actions have solid, unavoidable consequences. He made a bad choice that he knew was bad, he needs to have repercussions. It's a good thing he got caught before he turned 18, really, so he doesn't have to deal with the jail system.

 

[ShadowCard]

Well, I had typed up a long response, but when I went to hit quick reply, I guess I had stayed on the page for too long and it said I wasn't signed in. I hate it when that happens, don't you guys?

This always happens to me but the forum usually posts my message anyway after I log in again. As a safeguard, I usually copy any long messages I write before posting, just in case.

On the other hand, if he were to be sincere in an apology, would it be so terrible to forgive him? Why so hasty for justice? We all make mistakes from time to time. Is there anyone on this entire forum that can say they have never done something they later regret in their life? Wouldn't you have liked it if those you wronged forgave you and all could be forgotten? Don't be so quick to condemn this person you don't even know. We're all people, we all do bad things.

As SD PokeMom said, a 15-year-old is rather old to not know better. On paper, SD PokeMom's response sounds cold and detached but it's really hard to disagree with. At that age, we've moved a little past the "a mistake was made" approach that I talked about a few posts above and are moving into "here are the facts, consequences, and our options" territory.
Like Trican said, if opportunities were given for the player to return the items or even admit to wrongdoing, an understanding may be reached, but if the person waited to get caught, what does that say? At that point, we have the additional question of "are you sorry you did it or are you sorry you got caught?" rather than determining if this person was simply afraid of coming forward like someone of a younger age may have been.

15-years-old is a 9th grader, right? hum... Again, is the player is willing to accept responsibility and correct the action? Did they come forward and did you have to present an undesirable alternative to convince them to do so? If the person is receptive to making up for taking the cards, I'd say a short "vacation" from league followed by a probation of service to the league may be granted. Remind the player what the rules are and that a ban is recommended, but it is being reduced for the player's good behavior and the understanding that a mistake such as taking other people's stuff will not happen again.

 

[waynegg]

On the other hand, if he were to be sincere in an apology, would it be so terrible to forgive him?

It's easy to be sincere and apologize after the fact; after you've been caught. If he had any real remorse he would have come clean BEFORE he was called to the carpet.

Why so hasty for justice? We all make mistakes from time to time. Is there anyone on this entire forum that can say they have never done something they later regret in their life?

Of course everyone makes mistakes. When you do, you are punished. This is how we learn.

Wouldn't you have liked it if those you wronged forgave you and all could be forgotten? Don't be so quick to condemn this person you don't even know. We're all people, we all do bad things.

That would send the wrong signal. It would be saying he can do whatever he wants and nothing REAL will come of it. He should be condemned. He knew what he was doing was wrong and did it anyway.

You should always forgive, but don't be so quick to forget. When you do this, you aren't doing yourself any service. You leave yourself open to repeated victimization due to your own naivety. The victim has a life lesson to learn here as well.

Besides, what are the chances this person will do the same thing again?

Offenders, particularly those who go unpunished, re-offend MOST of the time. Either they don't have the conscience or feel they are above the rules.

I mean there's already threats of getting the police involved.

That threat was already there. At 15, you know full well there are criminal penalties for theft. Did that stop him? No.

15-years-old is a 9th grader, right? hum... Again, is the player is willing to accept responsibility and correct the action? If the person is receptive to making up for taking the cards, I'd say a short "vacation" from league followed by a probation of service to the league may be granted. Remind the player what the rules are and that a ban is recommended, but it is being reduced for the player's good behavior and the understanding that a mistake such as taking other people's stuff will not happen again.

So, sacrifice every other League member's peace of mind and their rights to a safe gaming environment for the sake of the person who has PROVEN themselves to be untrustworthy? No. You follow the rule recommendations and give him a lifetime ban and be done with it.

A thief is one of the absolute lowest forms of human life. To take something someone else worked hard to have is malicious and disrespectful. It says a lot about their character- they will do whatever they want without regard for anyone else.

 

[MattPL]

theft is a one strike and you're out imho...especially when you have video proof. 15 is WAY old enough to know better, again imo; this isn't a little kid with impulse control issues who is unclear on the concept of 'mine vs. yours'.

punishment fits the crime imo. and if the ban from the store prevents them from participating in pres, CCs or BRs held in the store...oh well; bed. made. lie.

jmho
'mom

I agree. Stealing shouldn't be tolerated, especially at that age.

This is why I try to always keep my stuff with me. It's not that I don't trust anyone at my league, I just feel better if I were keeping track of all my things. That way if something did go missing, it was most likely my fault, not someone stealing from me.

 

[ShadowCard]

It was a senior player, they were 15. They had completely known what would have been done if they hadn't returned it. But, is a ban from all of the Leagues hosted by our LL, and banned from the store in which it happened, truly fair? One bad mistake and all of that happens?

What are your thoughts on the punishment? And did it fit the crime?

I don't think any of us can say if that specific decision is fair because none of us were there and only know the events as they are told from one perspective. The LL and store manager/owner may have seen or known something that influenced the decision.

As a general here-is-what-happened, I wouldn't like to see it end that way, but I don't think it sounds unfair. The store manager may think it sounds more than fair.

So, sacrifice every other League member's peace of mind and their rights to a safe gaming environment for the sake of the person who has PROVEN themselves to be untrustworthy? No. You follow the rule recommendations and give him a lifetime ban and be done with it.

A thief is one of the absolute lowest forms of human life. To take something someone else worked hard to have is malicious and disrespectful. It says a lot about their character- they will do whatever they want without regard for anyone else.

For the character of a 15-year-old? Seriously, that's your approach?

Lessons taught by punishment are quickly forgotten. 15-years-old is still a teachable age. A lesson here is better learned when given the chance to correct the mistake. If they present you with evidence that they can earn back the trust and you deny them that, then you were lying when you said you should always forgive:

You should always forgive, but don't be so quick to forget.

As far as a safe gaming environment goes, like I said earlier in the thread, no one should assume their environment so safe that they leave their belongings unguarded.

 

[waynegg]

Lessons taught by punishment are quickly forgotten.

Quite the contrary... with tons of accessible research (there is a lesser extent that follows what you are saying, but the majority contradict your claim) and years of parenting experience. You leave infractions unpunished and your kids are heathens which no one can stand to be around.

The only time what you are saying applies is when either they don't understand or don't know why they are being punished. You have to take the time to explain fully and make sure they comprehend.

For the character of a 15-year-old? Seriously, that's your approach?

Definitely. Those skills are ingrained into us by the time we are 12 (University of Michigan, Johns Hopkins, Center for Disease control, and many other studies to back this up). We have a full set of ethics by then. That's why for particularly malicious crimes they are tried as an adult; with or without previous record.

If they present you with evidence that they can earn back the trust and you deny them that, then you were lying when you said you should always forgive:

Trusting them again has nothing to do with forgiving them:

for·give Pronunciation: \fər-ˈgiv, fȯr-\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): for·gave \-ˈgāv\; for·giv·en \-ˈgi-vən\; for·giv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English forgifan, from for- + gifan to give
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb 1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)

 

[Sabett]

It's easy to be sincere and apologize after the fact; after you've been caught. If he had any real remorse he would have come clean BEFORE he was called to the carpet.

The sincerity of an apology has no correlation with when you're caught. You can assume insincerity as a way for him to get out of the trouble once caught, but the two are not entwined.

Of course everyone makes mistakes. When you do, you are punished. This is how we learn.

Not everyone has to meet the hard end of the law, or even be banished from anywhere to learn not to steal. A simple talk to can do the exact same thing.

That would send the wrong signal. It would be saying he can do whatever he wants and nothing REAL will come of it. He should be condemned. He knew what he was doing was wrong and did it anyway.

Once again, in your opinion, the same one that feels every mistake deserves a punishment, so people can learn, it's the wrong signal. But as I said earlier in this post, this person can easily be approached, he doesn't need to be condemned, he's not an evil villain or even what I would consider a criminal.

You should always forgive, but don't be so quick to forget. When you do this, you aren't doing yourself any service. You leave yourself open to repeated victimization due to your own naivety. The victim has a life lesson to learn here as well.

When I say that I meant not to hold it against them. Forgiving involves a certain amount of forgetting. I mean if you never forget anything, that means you would always take precation in every situation where his mistake would present itself as an issue. I mean you can pull out your dictionary definition of forgiving, and make it mean to hold no more resentment from that person, but if you never trust them ever again, no one's going to consider that forgiveness. Words have connotative meanings too.

Offenders, particularly those who go unpunished, re-offend MOST of the time. Either they don't have the conscience or feel they are above the rules.

Well other than the fact that you can't say they re-offend every time, and thus still can't say that he will for certain re-offend, we're rational human beings, and as you said he's of an age of reason and understanding. He could easily be talked to and an understanding could easily be reached.

That threat was already there. At 15, you know full well there are criminal penalties for theft. Did that stop him? No.

Did he understand that it would be brought such a level? Over pokemon cards? We don't know, do we? All he knew is that it could be brought to such a level. Some people might consider it ridiculously extreme to bring in the law for stealing some cards.

So, sacrifice every other League member's peace of mind and their rights to a safe gaming environment for the sake of the person who has PROVEN themselves to be untrustworthy? No. You follow the rule recommendations and give him a lifetime ban and be done with it.

No, if anything this is something that every league member should be brought into this and a mutual understanding should be made to a head. Every single person in their life proves to be untrustworthy, are you saying that everyone should have some sort of irreversible punishment for when they do? Maybe a little more should be done to understand what happened and why before we send someone off to condemnation.

A thief is one of the absolute lowest forms of human life. To take something someone else worked hard to have is malicious and disrespectful. It says a lot about their character- they will do whatever they want without regard for anyone else.

You clearly have some sort of bias here to consider a theif to be one of the absolute lowest forms of human life. I mean we've got murderers, people who torture other people, unless you're going to go with the whole kite runner idea of them being thieves as well, there's clearly something else clouding your judgment.


I'm just trying to say, that out of this situation, of which we have only heard two replies from somebody else's side, we know very very little, and before people start bringing out the crosses, maybe some compassion should be considered beforehand. There are a multitude of reasons that could possibly explain why this person did this that would make this decision to steal said cards. Peer pressure, black mail from another kid, perhaps this kid is a klepto. We ALL have absolutely NO idea what is going on here. It's pretty wrong of all of us to assume that this kid had nothing but ill intentions here. Even more so to associate him with being one of the absolute lowest forms of human life. The kid's a teenager, not a mass murderer.