What happened to the quality of Front Page Articles

[calisupra2nr]

If you want expert articles, but don't pay, then you can't complain about quality.

I'm not saying to pay the experts. I'm just saying it's understandable that they want to be comp'd.

Personally, I've never submitted an article here. If I did, I certainly wouldn't expect to be compensated money-wise. Heck, I've never expected anything in return for providing my decklist program here, other than recognition. For some like me, that's enough.

I know but being paid is just a little problematic with no fees; I am saying the same thing, and honestly, we have bigger problems to worry about if people can not post high quality articles without being paid a fee...

I'm kinda of surprised at how many of you ignored Ruiner's basic suggestion, which is to place a small, non-obtrusive ad or two. Considering this site's traffic, it's likely that much of the 'Gym's basic costs would be paid off, and something akin to compensated writers would be major.

However, just like how POP-to-Judge "compensation" has shown, you can be paid in more ways than cash. Offering some sort of healthy booster pack bounty would instantly draw in a lot of strong players (yes, even those who criticize, are annoyed with, or outright hate Pokegym).

In essence, this all goes back to my "incentives" post, so I'll just say what I said there: the more incentive you have to excel, the more likely that you actually WILL.

Well from what I know, this site's traffic compared to the income generated from ads (depending on the type) would not cover a writer's fee of anything meaningful. Some of the biggest sites I have seen valuations on make around a thousand a month on ads. Those sites have nearly 10,000,000 views per month...

 

[SteveP]

Not really. The amounts allocated to thetopcut.com writers were so small, Drew Holton was able to skirt tax laws if I recall correctly; it's a "whole can of worms" that remained unopened.

Also, check out my post about compensation in other forms, such as booster packs.

I'm not too familiar with "bartering-for-service" rules, but non-monetary compensation is certainly an option.

Regarding "skirting tax laws," employers don't need to issue 1099 forms if the payout is under a given threshold, but that doesn't exempt the person who is compensated from reporting that on his/her tax return. And, if the IRS requests reports about how much was compensated but not reported, especially if the contractor expensed out those monies, those reports must be provided.

Certainly, the IRS is not going to go after "nickels and dimes." But, those "nickels and dimes" can add up on PokeGYM's side if the payouts are numerous -- thereby requiring maticulous accounting.

 

[calisupra2nr]

Oh yes, and how do we decide who is compensated and who is not?

Do the moderators vote on the articles they like the most?

Do the members vote or rate submissions?

How do we decide/define quality? Popularity?

I hardly see any organized/unbiased manner in which a member would be chosen to be paid for their writings.

 

[Cyrus]

Well calis, POP has a good way to award prof points to certain people: they announce solicitations for a certain period, and receive article abstracts. From those abstracts, they decide who gets to write for them, and thus, who gets the award.

Sincerely (while munching on a chargrilled chicken sandwich),

~Cyrus

 

[SteveP]

Oh yes, and how do we decide who is compensated and who is not?

Do the moderators vote on the articles they like the most?

Do the members vote or rate submissions?

I hardly see any organized/unbiased manner in which a member would be chosen to be paid for their writings.

It's all an exercise in economics.

I'm not implying that I'm "for" compensation. I'm just saying it's an understandable desire.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Well calis, POP has a good way to award prof points to certain people: they announce solicitations for a certain period, and receive article abstracts. From those abstracts, they decide who gets to write for them, and thus, who gets the award.

Sincerely (while munching on a chargrilled chicken sandwich),

~Cyrus

Yeah, it "can" be done. "Should" it be done though? That's the issue.

Personally, I vote against it. But, I also can't complain from something that was free.

 

[ryanvergel]

The POP website pays individuals to write up articles. Cyrus himself has been paid to write for them IIRC. Who decides? Does it really matter?

It would be the same people deciding on what content is on the front page-the moderators and administrators? . They would likely be staff members, with access to the feature article forum and maybe a specific deck forum, and have a large PM box for communication, and probably a custom title. Not really much power, but they are performing a service for compensation. Our society is run on an incentive system. We accept that, but some are very opposed to the same type of efficiency and productivity measure being implemented here?

This site gets decent traffic, and maybe it could get more if it started to offer boosters/notebooks/sleeves/pens and intangible things like custom title/avatar/PM box in exchange for articles. Eventually start moving to paid positions, where someone has to submit an article monthly, and make it so that everyone has different deadlines spread throughout, so that you aren't having a slew come in at once. However, pay is monthly or so, and it's something low, maybe increasing if it works or if resources allow. 25 dollars a month and those privileges I mentioned would probably attract quite a few people. That is if you want to make a consistent staff member.

Another way to do it is the way that Cyrus just suggested. Just have a call for an article, or list articles you want, give a skeleton format, and then have people submit. Pick ones you like, and pay them a standard fee and publish.

 

[SteveP]

calisupra2nr, a statement like "I hardly see any organized/unbiased manner..." implies that you've made up your mind that compensation is not possible. Like Cyrus, I beg to differ. The execise to derive a solution is not trivial, but IMO, it's possible, if the pursuit occured.

Should that "pursuit" occur though? IMO, no.

 

[calisupra2nr]

calisupra2nr, a statement like "I hardly see any organized/unbiased manner..." implies that you've made up your mind that compensation is not possible. Like Cyrus, I beg to differ. The execise to derive a solution is not trivial, but IMO, it's possible, if the pursuit occured.

Should that "pursuit" occur though? IMO, no.

I am not saying that it is impossible, more so implausible. Unless the gym has some pile of liquid cash to either pay out, or purchase boosters like Ryan wants, I do not think that there is enough income from this level of traffic to start paying out anything meaningful.

 

[SteveP]

Like ryanvergel said, it can be done. Any level/type of compensation will most certainly improve quality. Will the improvement be worth it? That's the million-dollar question here. I'm not a seer, but in the situation of the PokeGYM, a mostly-volunteer website, I predict the cost-to-benefit might not be worth it.

There are plenty of nice-to-haves in this world to dream about. This is perhaps one of those. :wink:

*** ADDED ***

OK calisupra, "not plausible" is a much better term.

 

[calisupra2nr]

Like ryanvergel said, it can be done. Any level/type of compensation will most certainly improve quality. Will the improvement be worth it? That's the million-dollar question here. I'm not a seer, but in the situation of the PokeGYM, a mostly-volunteer website, I predict the cost-to-benefit might not be worth it.

There are plenty of nice-to-haves in this world to dream about. This is perhaps one of those. :wink:

*** ADDED ***

OK calisupra, "plausible" is a much better term.

Right on!

I am simply saying that because we do not have that kind of system, stop complaining about free articles!!!! (Especially if you do not put forth any effort in the first place):nonono:

 

[bulbasnore]

AFAIK, pokemon.com hasn't paid for articles since last year and hasn't solicited them publicly since last winter.

PKGM has been a community site and there are contributions from community. We haven't cared for the political complications of taking ad revenue we could generate (and we took a beating from some quarters when we made exceptions for advertising Onederlnd & PokePop's businesses for free when they were out of work). There is also the administrative burden of tracking all the sources of income and outgo. As it is, the site revenues go to providing resources for the server and giveaways to the membership at events, contests and celebrations. Just shipping the stuff for events/celebrations is plenty of work. All the folks running this site have families and day jobs (if you count our students as working). Taking control of hiring and paying and related accounting is a time consuming task. I'm not saying it couldn't change, or don't discuss it, but that is why we haven't done it up to now.

I'm curious if Pojosama pays the deck mechanics and CotD folks? Some of you have written for him, can you say?

Overall one of the Gym’s biggest problems is lack of civility and this comes from players of all ability. You have new players who are just as rude if not more so than pros and pros who take umbrage at everything on the one hand. On the other you have genuinely nice or helpful people of all ability posting as well … it’s just that their content tends to get drowned out too often.

Well said. Everyone is welcome here, if they can abide our posting rules. I'd love for us to do a much more consistent job on civility, but we're understaffed. Some of the uncivil do a fine job of intimidating and bullying the mods and holding them up to ridicule across the net - who wants that task, then, mmm? We haven't found a way to encourage members to consistently show restraint and report posts. They tend to handle things in thread, which leads to more incivility. We haven't given up, but we're not making much headway either.

The quality of articles is what it is. We're interested in good and better articles and in methods to obtain them. In lieu of workable schemes for the same, we do our best. In general when prime rib isn't available, a big mac is interesting.

 

[Cyrus]

The POP website pays individuals to write up articles. Cyrus himself has been paid to write for them IIRC. Who decides? Does it really matter?

I've never been paid by POP to write an article. I'd more than love to be one of their site's regular staffers/writers, but in the capacity that I'm in, I've never been paid.

I have been paid by Pojo before, but that was only a one-time thing (Pojo's Big Book of Pokemon - if you somehow ever get your hands on this article, you'll see how much weaker my deck theory was six years ago than it is now :biggrin. However, despite my lack of experience at the time, I put a considerable amount of effort into making that a quality, well-written article, mostly due to the incentive I received: a check for a whopping $85. Considering I wasn't even 15 at the time, that's some NICE money. Although I was never compensated by Bill/Pojo for work on CotD, deck shop, etc, had I not been doing those things, I wouldn't have gotten the chance to do those juicy articles.



As for calis, there aren't a lot of people actually "complaining" about the lack of quality, because most of us don't take for granted that this is a free website. However, what we're pondering is what led to its downfall, and what it will take to bring it back up to snuff.

 

[ryanvergel]

I've never been paid by POP to write an article. I'd more than love to be one of their site's regular staffers/writers, but in the capacity that I'm in, I've never been paid.

I have been paid by Pojo before, but that was only a one-time thing (Pojo's Big Book of Pokemon - if you somehow ever get your hands on this article, you'll see how much weaker my deck theory was six years ago than it is now :biggrin. However, despite my lack of experience at the time, I put a considerable amount of effort into making that a quality, well-written article, mostly due to the incentive I received: a check for a whopping $85. Considering I wasn't even 15 at the time, that's some NICE money. Although I was never compensated by Bill/Pojo for work on CotD, deck shop, etc, had I not been doing those things, I wouldn't have gotten the chance to do those juicy articles.



As for calis, there aren't a lot of people actually "complaining" about the lack of quality, because most of us don't take for granted that this is a free website. However, what we're pondering is what led to its downfall, and what it will take to bring it back up to snuff.

Ugh, someone we know. Oh well.


It doesn't really matter, there is a lot of precedent, and it wouldn't be any different than it is now. it would just provide incentive to some.

 

[Prime]

The POP website pays individuals to write up articles. Cyrus himself has been paid to write for them IIRC. Who decides? Does it really matter?

A few of my card strategy articles were published on the POP website, but all I got paid was in Professor Points, which I think is true for Cyrus too.

I can't speak for those who ultimately own the PokeGym, but I don't think you will EVER see the PokeGym paying for articles. Some players would like that, sure.

Honestly, I don't think its worth it. I haven't seen an article from one of these players that has really blown my mind or been tremendously better than the free articles we post now. What would the player be payed for? A slightly better list? Slightly more realistic matchups? If people don't netdeck the list, then the slightly better list is not that useful. If people test the deck themselves, the matchups can be figured out on their own.

I don't see a reason to ever spend real money on a pokemon article.

 

[Jaeger]

A few of my card strategy articles were published on the POP website, but all I got paid was in Professor Points, which I think is true for Cyrus too.

I can't speak for those who ultimately own the PokeGym, but I don't think you will EVER see the PokeGym paying for articles. Some players would like that, sure.

Honestly, I don't think its worth it. I haven't seen an article from one of these players that has really blown my mind or been tremendously better than the free articles we post now. What would the player be payed for? A slightly better list? Slightly more realistic matchups? If people don't netdeck the list, then the slightly better list is not that useful. If people test the deck themselves, the matchups can be figured out on their own.

I don't see a reason to ever spend real money on a pokemon article.

I disagree the articles on the top cut, were way above anything (for the most part) that has been posted on the front page.

 

[dkosturk]

WOW
Grow some thick skin. If I would have been discouraged the first time a girl said no..........
After reading all this I think that the energy spent could have produced several great articles:lol:
I think that it all comes down to an Adam Smith type scenario - folks will do what to them seems to benefit them.
So, I think that I agree with most everything that has been said about recognition, award, compensation, and self-satisfaction. If you are not inclined to share then don't share but don't knock the altruistic among us. If the recognition for having brilliant ideas is motivation then that is admirable. I have not seen, outside of some sidebars, anything that is not ripe for discussion in any other venue. If you are not inclined to perform without compensation and you are participating in a venue that does not compensate then do not complain about the venue seek another venue that provides you with your incentive. From what I understand, through reading, is that the pokegym venue has alot of participants that enjoy the content for what is is. If there are other venues that are not as successful then why should pokegym adopt an unsuccessful business plan?
Although, I think that you could share the banner line with a revenue generating ad of one sort or another. There could be a polling method set up so that a monthly award would be issued, whatever the form of that award may be. It seems to me that there are alot of the online polls out there.

 

[Regis_Neo]

A few of my card strategy articles were published on the POP website, but all I got paid was in Professor Points, which I think is true for Cyrus too.

I can't speak for those who ultimately own the PokeGym, but I don't think you will EVER see the PokeGym paying for articles. Some players would like that, sure.

Honestly, I don't think its worth it. I haven't seen an article from one of these players that has really blown my mind or been tremendously better than the free articles we post now. What would the player be payed for? A slightly better list? Slightly more realistic matchups? If people don't netdeck the list, then the slightly better list is not that useful. If people test the deck themselves, the matchups can be figured out on their own.

I don't see a reason to ever spend real money on a pokemon article.

I've also written for POP...well, way too long ago, and I just got Professor Points also...then again, that was also about 4 years ago lol.

Anyways, does anyone think there's way too many Flygon articles popping up? By count, there's what, 5 of them all together that have been on the Front Page, which is excessive considering Flygon is still the central focus in each of those builds pretty much, with a (lack of a better word) tech support line, like Machamp (the most common variant) or (in the more weird examples) Dusknoir and Tangrowth.

So I think the Flygon articles are being overdone way too much...now, I understand each build is different in ways, but honestly, slapping together some other line with Flygon isn't that creative, as all you're doing is taking advantage of the free retreat Flygon offers to use that supporting line's attacks, and providing fodder for Flygon's Power Swing.

 

[Jaeger]

There pretty much limited to post what people send them. Flygon articles get turned in Flygon Artlices get put up.

 

[Victory Bell]

If anything they're misleading to newer players, who may assume that said articles are of genuine relevance, simply because they are on the Front Page. I would assume that in the minds of some that the Front Page holds some degree of prestige.

out of all I have read, ^ seems to be what I agree with most. I think that if the goal of front page articals is to educate players, then the quality should be what the editors should be editing. There are only so many decks that can hold first tier or even second tier spots. Adding a bunch of decks a month is great until players start reading what players of the same or lesser level have wrote.

Learning generaly only happens when one is reading something that came from a higher source.

But currently the front page is reciveing little from that area... part of this might be the great players greater urge to stay at a level above everyone else.

Hawaii is some where almost every one would like an invite to... me included.

 

[SD PokeMom]

so should we stop publishing front page deck articles completely?

i'm being serious here: people are saying the content sucks, they're written by n00bs/scrubs/what have you, they 'mislead' the players who need the help the most...so what's the solution, when the players who DO have the experience/ability/tournament wins don't want to help the community if there's 'nothing in it for them' and those making the most noise about the perceived low quality articles don't want to write either?

'mom