What's the big deal with Stunfisk DRE?

[LibertyFigter]

Storytime:

I am a fairly dedicated Empoleon player. I've tried out quite a few variants including Empoleon/Emolga/Roserade, Empoleon/Terrakion/Emolga, Empoleon/Accelgor, etc. My Empoleon/Terrakion/Emolga list (my favorite so far) is 14-3 on the season, going 5-0, 5-1, and 4-2 at the three BRs I've attended.

Now that the intro is done, whenever I see mention of Empoleon I see it beside Stunfisk- and it confuses me. I get that Stunfisk can donk Tynamo and cause Darkrai to not be able to retreat... but why would you ever want to start with a Stunfisk instead of an Emolga? Why would you want to stop a Darkrai from retreating instead of just KOing it with a Terrakion?

Is there something I'm missing, or is Stunfisk getting a whole heap of undue hype?

PS. This is my first thread, if I put this in the wrong place or made any other mistake, please let me know.

 

[AyameHikaru]

The 20+20 spread is actually very valuable. Empoleon caps at 120, which misses a lot of critical KOs. Reshi/Zek/Kyu, Terrakion, and Garchomp spring to mind. Especially against a Garchomp or Terrakion/Garbodor deck where you NEED to take prizes as quickly as you can, that extra 20 can make a world of difference.

Also, since a lot of decks have stopped relying on Switches and started relying on Skyarrow or Darkrai, trapping something, anything, active can really bog down your opponent. One game I whiffed just about everything against a Groudon/Terrakion deck and went down 6-3. I got out a Stunfisk, catchered a Groudon that had no energy, and locked it active. Yes, it took me like 6 turns to kill the silly thing, but that bought me enough time to set up and stage a comeback.

As far as vs. Emolga as a starter... well, if you're running Level Ball/Ultra Ball/Communication, you shouldn't really need Emolga. In my Empoleon deck I often wish my Emolga something, really ANYTHING else. Yes, that one time out of twenty it saves your behind, but the rest of the time it's just dead weight.

 

[Kayle]

I was just about to link you to this thread, LF. xD

I like the point about missing KOs on things like Zekrom or w/e. But Emolga is 100% benefit. It's a huge consistency boost without taking nearly as much space as Comm and Level Ball, it provides damage boosting, and it provides a free retreater late game.

 

[Oaksnewtheory]

Emolga can also donk swabloos haha only if your running blends in your Empoleon though. Either way if you run emolgas I would consider 1 eswitch as emolga generally won't e taken out unless your opponant is looking for an easy/ late game prize but they will sooner be goin after pips. Either using emolga leaves you with a dead energy on the board and eswitch will help pull off easy plays.

Now onto stunkfisk. The ability to ko tynamos and put pokes into 1 shot rane is not something to pass off lightly. The differance in a 1 shot and 2 shot can be quite significant especially with max running in format. Also against emolga an opponant can manipulate their bench to ensure you cannot take easy ko's. With stunk you can set up knock outs that are out of their control or manipulation range.

Lastly you can hit darkrai so they cannot retreat forcing them to ko stink allowing for an easy retaliate. Even if they are evoed they will be knocked out. Hope this helped!

 

[LibertyFigter]

In my experience, Empo has no issues with Zeels as long as it sets up... meaning Emolga is a better starter here than Stunfisk. Also, Empo only dies to Zekrom's bolt strike, after which Zekrom is in OHKO range anyway. Reshi is weak to Empo, getting OHKOed without Stunfisk. Kyurem fails against Max Potion, which all Empo builds should be running. Max Potion also throws the Terrakion matchup in your favor.

It feels like at best, Stunfisk is a "win more" card... and at worst it kills consistency and takes up room for valuable tech cards.

I just don't see it : /.

 

[Otaku]

My thoughts on this.

First, I have run (albeit casually, against friends) three Empoleon builds.

The first build was a pure Water deck, built prior to BW: Dragons Exalted being legal. It instead used Lapras (BW: Next Destinies 25/99). It also used Kyurem so that I had a non-Lightning Weak attacker and spread. Kyurem made an excellent "meat shield": even if it couldn't attack that turn, a Kyurem with a single Energy requires a OHKO or "poking into finishing range". I would consider the deck overall "functional", but neither optimized nor overly "good". Most of my friends weren't using Lightning-Type decks, which helped it perform a lot better than it should have.

Now, my other two builds are more relevant, but I brought up the former for completeness and because it was with Kyurem I learned to appreciate meat shield and spread damage. When I am focusing on a more or less standard Empoleon deck build, I back it with Terrakion (BW: Noble Victories 73/101, 99/101) and hope to open with Emolga. Obviously the focus is to fill my bench and Attack Command the opposition into oblivious, with a Retaliate ready to OHKO Fighting Weak Pokémon (such as most Lightning-Type attackers). The big problem is that Terrakion is really only useful for hitting hard after one of my Pokémon has been KOed and when it wouldn't be wise to send up an Empoleon.

The simple fact that Emolga is a bit slow for Empoleon decks. Empoleon can hit for one Energy, and most builds really want to fill the Bench by the player's second turn, use Rare Candy so a first turn Piplup can Evolve into Empoleon, and then swing away! A single Emolga burns an Energy attachment and an attack to get just two more Basic Pokémon from the deck. Two Level Ball are just as effective at fetching Piplup. Emolga does provide a useful Fighting Resistant Basic Pokémon with a free Retreat, and while it is almost sad, yes sometimes it will be handy with a Blend Energy WLFM as well!

So why use Stunfisk (BW: Dragons Exalted 70/124) instead? The bad news is it has a horrible three Energy Retreat Cost, but the silver-lining is that if you already had a partner worth running Heavy Ball, Stunfisk is compliant. [DEL]Thing is, Stunfisk is also small enough for Level Ball, like Piplup and unlike Terrakion.[/DEL] Edit: Another epic fail because I didn't pull up and study the scan! This is why half of why I used to begin my CotDs by typing up a text spoiler for the card.

Like Terrakion, Stunfisk is a pain for Lightning-Type decks: Stunfisk doesn't rely on being good after something of yours has been KOed, but instead delivers solid damage for one Energy to both the Defending Pokémon and one Benched Pokémon. As established, this is great whether hitting Weakness or not because even one shot can bring 130 to 140 HP Pokémon into range for a single maxed out Attack Command to OHKO.

Since it only requires fighting::colorless, Rumble becomes a decent attack to use when hitting for Weakness. That really isn't much harder than exploiting Retaliate in my experience (something I have often found a challenge in decks that don't power-it up in one turn, like Empoleon builds). With Switch being less common than expected, you can periodically strand something up front that can't hit (or hit hard) and buy time to rally your deck.

90 HP, especially with Lightning Resistance, allows Stunfisk to soak a hit early and sometimes any time at all throughout a match. Using a single Energy to spread damage while soaking a hit that would otherwise be KOing a Piplup or softening up an Empoleon is a good deal. The last thing to consider is my third deck; I am trying to get Aerodactyl to work with Empoleon, since that gives me max damage of 160 for Attack Command. At least when it works completely (somewhat rare >.>).

tl;dr: Stunfisk resists Empoleon's Weakness, while usually hitting said Weakness for double damage. First attack spreads damage (good for Attack Command), second attack is disruptive. Compatible with Blend Energy WLFM. Finally, it can take a hit while doing its thing and this makes it a great set-up Pokémon for decks like Empoleon.

---------- Post added 09/15/2012 at 11:47 AM ----------

Kyurem fails against Max Potion, which all Empo builds should be running. Max Potion also throws the Terrakion matchup in your favor.

Addendum: Say what?

Max Potion shouldn't like Kyurem. Kyurem will spread 30 points of damage. This isn't enough to bother healing... but is too much to leave standing it moves a lot of Pokémon significantly closer to (pseudo) OHKO range. For example, when I was using Kyurem alongside Empoleon, a single Glaciate with both Benches full meant anything with 150 HP or less (basically anything that wasn't a Pokémon EX) could be finished off with Attack Command in one more hit.

If you've got a full Bench, that means you have to risk an Empoleon deck racking up Prizes or you have to burn all your Max Potion! Max Potion hates being "wasted" on small amounts (roughly 50 or less points) of damage. You want your opponent to nearly OHKO whatever it is you're dropping Max Potion on. Even if it is only because of the psychological factor of "I healed more damage this way". Most of the time, though, you'll be trading an Item (Max Potion) for whatever resources went into your opponent's attack(s)!

Spread really wrecks this. Also, Empoleon usually has room for Max Potion, but not always. Well, at least when you're trying to find a good Bench-sitter for the deck. With some of the most hyped decks hitting Empoleon for a OHKO anyway, Max Potion can be dead weight (though this seems uncommon).

Are you talking an "old-school" quad Terrakion match, or the current Terrakion EX builds? I can see the former being messed up badly by Max Potion, but the latter will shrug it off as you burn your Max Potion, maybe take a lead in Prizes, but now your Empoleon are staring down all manner of fully energized nasties.

 

[cabd]

Otaku, stunfisk has 100....

 

[Otaku]

*facepalm

I should probably be grateful it was an easy to spot (and thus correct) error.

I use Pokémon Communication anyway. :lol:

 

[LibertyFigter]

My thoughts on this.

They were long, so I will try and keep my responses shorter! : ).

Now, my other two builds are more relevant

And I will only address those, as I don't think Empoleon/Kyurem is a metagame threat... yet!

The simple fact that Emolga is a bit slow for Empoleon decks. Empoleon can hit for one Energy, and most builds really want to fill the Bench by the player's second turn, use Rare Candy so a first turn Piplup can Evolve into Empoleon, and then swing away!

Emolga helps every single objective that you just listed. Gets more basics out, only takes the one, first-turn attachment so an Empo can use the second turn to start swinging, and thins your deck to better search for candy/Empoleon. Also, the more search you save by using Emolga to find basics, the more search you have left to find Empo.

A single Emolga burns an Energy attachment

Energy Switch.

Two Level Ball are just as effective at fetching Piplup

With Emolga, a level ball turns into two basics. Or, if you start Emolga, you get to save level ball for a prinplup or to more fully fill your bench, while Emolga's free retreat lets you choose your next attacker freely.

Heavy Ball

Is bad in Empoleon. It can't search out your main strategy.

As for Terra vs. Stunfisk... Terrakion, as long as high switch is being used, is fairly easy to set up with retaliate. Especially with energy switch. As long as you don't bench Terra without energy switch, a fighting, or a switch in hand, I have never had issue finding the time for retaliate. Absolutely worst case scenario, Terrakion sits there as you set up a Terrakion behind it, ready for a retaliate. They get one prize in a couple of attacks, and then you get two prizes (or an Attack Command at worst) in one attack.

Stunfisk can't really soak hits... best case scenario fisky takes a Night Spear because a Darkrai player didn't put the 30 where he should've. Terrakion is legitimately hard to OHKO, while stunfisk dies to a Bolt Strike, a relatively low-energy Mewtwo, a smart Darkrai, an Empoleon, a plus powered Terrakion, etc etc.

tl;dr: Stunfisk resists Empoleon's Weakness, while usually hitting said Weakness for double damage.

Terrakion hits the same weakness for double damage as well. Except Terrakion's is 180, well Stunfisk's is 80 : P.

makes it a great set-up Pokémon for decks like Empoleon.

How is it a set-up Poke?

Addendum: Say what?

I mean to say that at best Kyurem trades 2 hits with an Empoleon deck. Empoleon has access to max potion, making the trades go in Empo's favor. And nothing feels better than letting a terrakion reach 120 from repeated 30-snipes only to max potion it and then attach a fighting.

Also, Empoleon usually has room for Max Potion, but not always.

It should always : ).

As for the Terrakion matchup, the best they are doing is hitting you for 90 every turn, starting turn 3. You should be able to win that race with the use of max potion, as you are doing just about the same thing. And you should be able to trade 2HKOS with their EX, while they trade 2HKOs with your non-EX. And I don't think Stunfisk helps much in this one either.

 

[Otaku]

After wasting at least an hour, I will summarize:

In general, I think you're undervaluing the trade offs required to use Emolga. This by no means makes Emolga bad, it just means other cards may be good. Case in point; you trade several slots in your deck, opening Energy, opening manual Energy attachment, and opening attack to get two basic Pokémon from your deck. If Emolga survives, it can function as a "free Retreater", which is indeed useful... and any extra Emolga you ran to ensure you open with it are only good for discard fodder (though at least the deck does do well with discard fodder).

You seem to forget that Terrakion and Stunfisk are serving overlapping but non-identical roles, and you're cherry picking almost every scenario you present. I wasted time typing up, for example, how quad Terrakion EX can give you grief; the big hint is don't assume your opponent fills his or her Bench. That is to say, Terrakion EX is Grass Weak, taking three hits to KO (Attack Command is doing 70 a turn). This allows Terrakion EX to Rock Smash and Pump Up Smash to hit the 140 needed to KO an Empoleon.

What about your Max Potion? What about the Eviolite Terrakion EX is probably wearing? Now it is four attacks to take one down! If their deck is a pure Quad Terrakion, what about all the room they have for supporting Items to ruin your careful plans? If you want to use Retaliate on a plain Terrakion, maybe their deck also runs it, and unlike an Empoleon deck that last Pump Up Smash before being KOed powers it; you have to forgo using Max Potion to heal that turn (since you've got to replace your discarded Water Energy).

This is where Theorymon gets a bad name. :wink:

 

[LibertyFigter]

After wasting at least an hour

A response get deleted?

In general, I think you're undervaluing the trade offs required to use Emolga.

Well, with my firsthand tournament experience, I can fairly confidently say that Emolga is the most valuable card in my deck. It acts as the best benchsitter the deck has (thanks to the free retreat) and mid-game Call For Familys are better than one would think. Emolga is simply unbelievable in Empoleon. Yes, it requires an energy attachment and an attack. However I would take a more consistent set up over 20/20 damage any day.

You seem to forget that Terrakion and Stunfisk are serving overlapping but non-identical roles

True, and I'm not saying Stunfisk is bad, per se, just that Terrakion is a better attacker and that Emolga is a better starter. Leading me to my deck choices: why waste space on Stunfisk when you could just run more Emolga/Terrakion?

You're cherry picking almost every scenario you present.

Hey, no one is wrong here, and there is absolutely no reason to discount my analysis when I've brought Empo to three tournaments and you have not.

I wasted time typing up, for example, how quad Terrakion EX can give you grief

It's certainly not my best matchup, but having played it multiple times, it's absolutely winnable. And in Empo's favor, in my opinion. If they don't fill their bench, they don't benefit from Pump Up Smash. I'm even fine trading a 2HKOed Empo for a 3-4HKOed Terrakion EX. The prize trade works out fine for me.

To the last paragraph: Super Rod and Tool Scrapper.

This is where Theorymon gets a bad name. :wink:

Yes, theorymon can be wrong. But when I've taken my list to three tournaments, played all of these matchups we are discussing at BRs.... I'm not sure how "theorymon" that is. Discussing how to play a matchup that i have recently played in an official capacity is not theorymon. Once again, please don't discount my analysis because you believe I am just theorizing. I've played this deck quite a bit, and believe I'm pretty familiar with how most matchups play out.

And remember, this thread isn't about Empo's matchups- it's about how Stunfisk would ever help those matchups. How in the world would Stunfisk help against Terrakion EX? If they don't fill their bench, then Stunfisk has nothing to bring up. If they have an eviolite like you suggest, Stunfisk does a whopping 0 damage. If they are a competent player, they are running 4 switch, so rumble isn't the best either.

 

[Otaku]

First, the only thing that got deleted was a post that I had made where I felt I was over analyzing things, and it wasn't even actually posted yet. Sorry for being unclear. Second, the big thing I am going to be on about this post is communication. At this point, I am really weighing what you said carefully, but when we get down to the nitty-gritty, I can explain why what may be "tournament experience" for you may not be the norm.

Hey, no one is wrong here, and there is absolutely no reason to discount my analysis when I've brought Empo to three tournaments and you have not.

Sure there is; read how you wrote your posts. :wink: Seriously though, that is why I opened with what I did; most of your posts have read like you were pulling pretty specific, favorable examples from the air.

I am not a brilliant player. I am not a brilliant writer. I am however an experienced writer; even if I can't write well (and I think I do okay) I can tell when there is something to be desired from writing. Well, most of the time.

Are there times when I make some really stupid posts? Just in this thread alone I managed to make a pretty embarrassing mistake where because I claimed Stunfisk had 90 HP. :lol: Not one of my finer moments. I was even wrong there and I can admit that. Everyone may be entitled to an opinion, but not every opinion is factually based. :wink: Point being, your posts have undermined a lot of your arguments.

I'd am more impressed by play-testing five or six dozen games against an established group of skilled players than with winning three tournaments when so far this season, that means three Battle Roads. Are Battle Roads a tournament? Yes they are. Are they a challenge to win? You bet! It is still an accomplishment; congratulations! They are what they are, however; structured differently than many later tournaments, and designed as sort of the first level of competitive, organized play. If I have am incorrect and we've had some other events this season, let me know; I don't want to repeat my earlier mistakes.

So what am I saying, that "Battle Roads" don't count? No, I am saying that by themselves such wins don't prove you have the best build of the deck. Information such as in your last post, when you bring up that you are using Call For Family mid-game and possibly even late-game, that is much more convincing, whether you won anything with the deck or not. Your latest post is a bit more helpful, as it sort of "connects the dots". I can comprehend better what you've been trying to say.

Stunfisk has shown up in some winning lists; could be flukes, could be people who are ahead of the curve. Not just for Empoleon, either. To be honest, not in Empoleon at all; people are so weird at what Pokémon they'll name as part of the "winning" deck and what they won't. So far all the Empoleon decks I saw in the Battle Roads winners thread have all just said "Empoleon", and I doubt they were running it on its own. Note: It is quite possible such details are listed farther down in the thread and I just overlooked them.

I at least got side tracked by your versus Terrakion EX comments because I found them hard to comprehend. You're talking about 2HKOing it, which means hitting for an average of 90 points of damage twice. That may be exactly how it went down when you faced it in a tournament. It may be how it went down more than once (or all times). Unless every match-up you faced was against Terrakion EX, it isn't enough data to reliably predict the match-up in the future.

Your "versus Terrakion EX" examples feel at best like anecdotal wins, and not actually trying to evaluate the match-up. I was so busy trying to point out that a 2HKO against it isn't guaranteed, and that a savvy player will space out Bench drops so that you're not getting 2HKOs even when they are powering something up with Pump Up Smash I forgot to address Emolga versus Stunfisk as relevant to the situation.

In that match-up, a benched Emolga is a Prize waiting for the right time. It may be a trade in your favor, or it may not, but in the same situation I can toss up a Stunfisk and now my opponent, even if Terrakion EX has Eviolite equipped and no Bench, is stuck taking two turns to go for the 2HKO. Unless they have a PlusPower, but then we get to the usual "arms race".

You know, which is why responding "Super Rod and Tool Scrapper" doesn't constitute a real answer. If this is a more or less pure Quad-Terrakion EX deck, why don't I get to assume they are using a combo of Switch, Max Potion, and Energy Retrieval? What, you run four Super Rod and Tool Scrapper in your Empoleon deck? If you do, that is unusual enough I think I still get to bring up my counterpoint.

With just one more Terrakion EX on the Bench, Empoleon is swinging for 80 per turn, which still means a 3HKO with or without Eviolite. First turn your main strategy isn't even attacking, and of course maybe Terrakion EX is getting to go first. Terrakion EX can safely soak two shots from Attack Command, and even Retaliate (from your plain Terrakion) to the one Pump Up Smash you can risk. So no Prizes on either side but all four Max Potion are gone pretty quick.

Is that a cherry-picked match-up? Pretty much. You're giving me one particular scenario to completely determine the match-up; it is akin to me saying Empoleon clearly must run Stunfisk and PlusPower because with both, now versus Eelektrik decks you donk Tynamo and versus Dark Trance you donk Deino. Pretty silly, eh?

Yes, theorymon can be wrong. But when I've taken my list to three tournaments, played all of these matchups we are discussing at BRs.... I'm not sure how "theorymon" that is.

When it relies on things happening "just so", anecdotal matches may still be "Theorymon". How many matches against Quad Terrakion EX (give or take a counter for Safeguard) did you face? If your victories were numerous and all went down in a similar manner, how much difference will experience in the match-up and deck tweaks make?

Discussing how to play a matchup that i have recently played in an official capacity is not theorymon. Once again, please don't discount my analysis because you believe I am just theorizing. I've played this deck quite a bit, and believe I'm pretty familiar with how most matchups play out.

Then try not to write it out so it sounds like you're just speculating. Say "I just got done running this deck and won three Battle Roads. I faced two Terrakion EX match-ups each tournament, including facing one player as good as or better than myself twice, and the deck just can't adjust its strategy when facing Empoleon without hurting all its other match-ups".

Obviously that isn't what happened, but that kind of phrasing makes it clear you're not just speculating. For all we know, you faced three inexperienced Quad Terrakion EX players who had bad luck on top of major misplays.

And remember, this thread isn't about Empo's matchups- it's about how Stunfisk would ever help those matchups. How in the world would Stunfisk help against Terrakion EX? If they don't fill their bench, then Stunfisk has nothing to bring up. If they have an eviolite like you suggest, Stunfisk does a whopping 0 damage. If they are a competent player, they are running 4 switch, so rumble isn't the best either.

If you are a competent player, odds are you are just using Stunfisk as a meat shield if they already have Energy and Eviolite. You bring up a valid point (which is why this is one of the sections I quoted); I got off focus. Something to remind you is that we aren't running your deck. Not all Empoleon builds are the same.

For example, one I ran was Aerodactyl/Empoleon/Stunfisk; it works very different because you want to fill your Bench with as many Aerodactyl as you can! Yes if the finicky nature of Restored Pokémon forces me to, I'll fill my Bench with a third and fourth Piplup/Prinplup/Empoleon and/or Stunfisk as necessary, and I might run a Terrakion or two to help against Weakness match-ups, but Call For Family does more harm than good here.

tl;dr: Your tournament experience came across as idle speculation. It carries weight but just as perhaps I didn't give it enough at first, you need to put it into perspective as well; grinding into Worlds with a perfect record then taking first is not the same as winning three Battle Roads.

 

[Kayle]

tl;dr: Your tournament experience came across as idle speculation. It carries weight but just as perhaps I didn't give it enough at first, you need to put it into perspective as well; grinding into Worlds with a perfect record then taking first is not the same as winning three Battle Roads.

Normally, I'm more than happy to follow a discussion between friends, but this is a bit headache-inducing. Are you sure this can't be taken to PMs effectively?

Otaku, the question is - does Stunfisk make sense in Empoleon given the alternatives presented. LF has been doing most of his playtesting with me or with random matchups on PlayTCG - offering him a mixture of competitive thought-out play (where he and I both look at an opposing list and try to make it the best we can) and creative, randomized input (from everybody on PTCG). Most of the situations he describes have come up in games I was either able to watch, or actively participated in.

It's hard to believe how ridiculously successful Empoleon has been in LF's hands. But he knows his own list - his list, mind you - like a virtuoso knows his fingers. It's just second nature to him. And his list doesn't show any benefit from Stunfisk. At all. It's confusing to both of us that, given the alternative that LF's shown to be very successful, anyone is really considering Stunfisk as an alternative to either Terrakion or Emolga.

But we are isolated testers. There are things we don't know, and lists we don't understand. Just because LF has something that works, doesn't mean it's THE ONE WAY to run Empoleon, and I'm sure he knows that. (In fact, I'm sure he thought it just went without saying!)

That's why we made this thread. What is it that makes Stunfisk the better play? For LF (and I), Energy Switch and heavy Switch make Terrakion and Emolga significantly better options. For those who are running Stunfisk, what is it other than Stunfisk itself that really makes it work?

 

[Otaku]

That's why we made this thread. What is it that makes Stunfisk the better play? For LF (and I), Energy Switch and heavy Switch make Terrakion and Emolga significantly better options. For those who are running Stunfisk, what is it other than Stunfisk itself that really makes it work?

The fact that the key Items so important to LibertyFigter's build weren't so easy for me to fit into my decks?

My build using Aerodactyl obviously is quite, quite tight on space. You need room for Twist Mountain and Old Amber Aerodactyl... yes, the latter can't be skipped unless you want to average an Aerodactyl every other turn, in which case I might as well just run four PlusPower instead. As this is my own deck (that is, not something I've seen in tournament reports), this one can be quite the oddball, hence why I made sure to mention it earlier. Obviously I should have been clear by stating "...and by running Aerodactyl I've got to cut most supporting Items."

That is also my latest build, and the only one I use Stunfisk in. I haven't gotten around to testing it elsewhere, but have merely seen a few people use it. My older builds still didn't bother with Max Potion, because all my opponents (just friends online) ran decks that OHKOed my Empoleon. All in all, I let my argumentative nature get the best of me, and for that I am sorry. :frown:

To answer your question, now that I have apologized, I believe any further side discussions can be taken to PM. Unfortunately I did not take it to PM sooner, so this last bit of side discussion was necessary on the main thread.

 

[Kayle]

No worries. ^ ^

And see, that makes sense: a list tight on space would struggle to make Terrakion and Emolga as effective, and sees that Stunfisk doesn't need as much maintenance in the form of techy trainers. Especially where you are trying to use Aerodactyl, which as I understand, doesn't benefit from Emolga. So that makes sense!

 

[LibertyFigter]

I will say a couple things to the long post and move on: I think you are underestimating the value of both testing and tournament play, especially in the unbelievably difficult field Kayle and I play in. Furthermore, this conversation represents an attitude on the Gym and so many other forums that I am averse to. Why, in a discussion about Pokemon, would you attack someone's writing style? It seems off base and unnecessary.

Kayle is right: I have answered most of these queries with my build in mind, as it is my personal standard for an Empo build. I should have prefaced that a bit better : ). Also, I am far from winning 3 BRs or a virtuoso.

Taking this back to the root topic, and staying very general: I see a lot of hype for Stunfisk in Empoleon. I see it discussed as a card that is a "must." Now, I see it being situationally helpful and tons of fun, but I don't see it as a must across the board... which is how it is often presented. So the real question is, which I thought was implied but clearly was not : P, while Stunfisk is good, why is it a better competitive deck choice than the combination of Terra/Emolga?

 

[Otaku]

I think you are underestimating the value of both testing and tournament play, especially in the unbelievably difficult field Kayle and I play in.

Maybe?

I mean, the only opponent of yours I know is Kayle. :lol: I don't know if you're play testing against [insert assorted past World Champions/], or [insert various high ranking players/], or if the events you cited were in small town areas with mostly new players attending. The more I understand how you run Empoleon, the more credence I give you.

Furthermore, this conversation represents an attitude on the Gym and so many other forums that I am averse to. Why, in a discussion about Pokemon, would you attack someone's writing style? It seems off base and unnecessary.

The purpose of a message board is communication. If you write poorly, it impedes communication. It was not meant as a "personal attack". Thanks to Kayle's post, I finally understand what you were saying. It is good that I understand. That I needed help to understand... not so much. Thanks to Kayle, I have a greater appreciation for your build, which may be the standard build, if not the best build.

I'll be blunt: I read your first post and first was annoyed with the attitude I perceived... but "took pity" on you and tried to answer. The good news is I've learned some stuff, but the bad news is I got off topic, and failed to remain polite during discourse.

This was extra bad of me since by entering with a certain frame of mind, it colored my responses.

I should have responded to your initial post as follows and left it at that:

Now that the intro is done, whenever I see mention of Empoleon I see it beside Stunfisk- and it confuses me.

I suggest you quite reading the same article repeatedly or search for more Empoleon articles. :lol: Kidding aside, this appears to be the latest twist, it did alright at Battle Roads, but it is by no means being "hyped"; popularized at most.

 

[LibertyFigter]

The purpose of a message board is communication. If you write poorly, it impedes communication.

Taking discussion of this to PM.

I suggest you quite reading the same article repeatedly or search for more Empoleon articles. :lol: Kidding aside, this appears to be the latest twist, it did alright at Battle Roads, but it is by no means being "hyped"; popularized at most.

That's just it: like the OP said, whenever I find Empoleon articles (here, SixPrizes, etc) or threads, Stunfisk is dramatically hyped. Hence my confusion.

 

[Hunter2hitman]

I am currently running Empoleon/Terrakion

I lost interest in reading paragraph after paragraph above, but i get the jist of it. And i have to say, i agree with Liberty on his points and built my deck largely the same style. There a huge difference between playtesting and tournament.. And some areas have incredibly tough competition, mine included. This forces one to build for consistancy, and emolga is a massive part of this deck working.
Onto Stunfisk. I have 1 teched in, and im on the fence about keeping it. It has helped me hugely in the zeels matchup, and ive used to to grab and hold a darkrai for a solid 2-1 prize trade. But more often than not it is dead weight.
Summary: i feel if youre going to run stunfisk, 1 is enough.

 

[LibertyFigter]

Summary: i feel if youre going to run stunfisk, 1 is enough.

Good to know. If you wouldn't mind, I have a question or two. Do you run Mew EX? And are you a P-Comm or Ultra Ball kind of guy? I'm trying to understand what kind of build a one-of Stunfisk helps in. Thanks!