What's Wrong with this Format?

[Poke Trainer J]

Yeah I don't know If I'm alone on this but HGSS-On has proven to me to be one of the most frustrating and annoying formats I've ever played in mainly because of Yanmega Prime and Donphan Prime. So what's really wrong with this format?

Everything.

There are too few good decks that are playable, too few really good Trainers, Supporters, and Stadiums in the current Modified card pool (we have Collector, Catcher, Communication, and Junk Arm) and you basically either have to play a good deck or everyone laughs at you. Now unless Noble Victories actually gives us alot more deck choices to choose from (which judging from the spoilers I saw on PokeBeach there's not a whole lot) instead of things that would be good except they keep getting killed by Donphan's or Yanmega, heck even Zekrom, the Pokemon TCG won't be fun anymore. Heck it's already gotten there with the B/W 1st Turn Rules.

Why does TPCi refuse to print cards to counter against Donphan Prime or even Yanmega Prime? Tornadus counters Donphan but what about Yanmega other than Zekrom and Magnezone? Not a whole lot is there? I'm running a deck that "supposedly" needs $160 of a playset of cards in the deck guess what it is? Yes it's Yanmega Prime. The price tag on that bug is ridiculous especially with that upset from Canadian Nationals this year. Why should players have to spend $40 a piece on it when it should be $15 or $20 especially in this horrible economy. I'm trying to save money for other stuff that's not the Pokemon TCG but it's getting hard right now. I need to get a new pair of glasses, get more dental fillings, and get new clothes. But no, I can't unfortunately. >_>

There's hardly any good enough cards in the current card pool for certain Rogue decks to become playable and even If they are playable most likely they are kept secret on various websites like on SixPrizes and other sites. I know there's like 9-10 playable decks in the current HGSS-On format If not more. Part of the problem is that some of these cards cost an arm and a leg to get ahold of when they shouldn't be the most expensive being like I said earlier Yanmega Prime and of course Tropical Beach which is "somewhat" reasonable considering it's a playable Worlds Promo so it's value is going to go up quite a bit. So yeah I'm struggling but it's hard.

 

[Shishio]

Its the nature of competitive TCGs. And yanmega is easy 35, which is fairly cheap compared to YGO and magic. And competitive decks can be made without yanmega: Reshiplosion is the most consistent top tier deck, and typlosion primes are only 7 a piece.

 

[djjoe227]

Yeah I don't know If I'm alone on this but HGSS-On has proven to me to be one of the most frustrating and annoying formats I've ever played in mainly because of Yanmega Prime and Donphan Prime. So what's really wrong with this format?

Everything.

There are too few good decks that are playable, too few really good Trainers, Supporters, and Stadiums in the current Modified card pool (we have Collector, Catcher, Communication, and Junk Arm) and you basically either have to play a good deck or everyone laughs at you. Now unless Noble Victories actually gives us alot more deck choices to choose from (which judging from the spoilers I saw on PokeBeach there's not a whole lot) instead of things that would be good except they keep getting killed by Donphan's or Yanmega, heck even Zekrom, the Pokemon TCG won't be fun anymore. Heck it's already gotten there with the B/W 1st Turn Rules.

Why does TPCi refuse to print cards to counter against Donphan Prime or even Yanmega Prime? Tornadus counters Donphan but what about Yanmega other than Zekrom and Magnezone? Not a whole lot is there? I'm running a deck that "supposedly" needs $160 of a playset of cards in the deck guess what it is? Yes it's Yanmega Prime. The price tag on that bug is ridiculous especially with that upset from Canadian Nationals this year. Why should players have to spend $40 a piece on it when it should be $15 or $20 especially in this horrible economy. I'm trying to save money for other stuff that's not the Pokemon TCG but it's getting hard right now. I need to get a new pair of glasses, get more dental fillings, and get new clothes. But no, I can't unfortunately. >_>

There's hardly any good enough cards in the current card pool for certain Rogue decks to become playable and even If they are playable most likely they are kept secret on various websites like on SixPrizes and other sites. I know there's like 9-10 playable decks in the current HGSS-On format If not more. Part of the problem is that some of these cards cost an arm and a leg to get ahold of when they shouldn't be the most expensive being like I said earlier Yanmega Prime and of course Tropical Beach which is "somewhat" reasonable considering it's a playable Worlds Promo so it's value is going to go up quite a bit. So yeah I'm struggling but it's hard.

It's posts and thoughts like this that keep this format frustrating. Enough is enough- The only thing frustrating about this format are the players who whine and moan without ever lifting a finger to try and change a thing. Or, they do, but minimally, and then shy away and fall back in line at the small glimpse of defeat.

I got some incredible news for you- When Emerging Powers was released, and people began opening packs, and getting cards for their decks, TPCi didn't include Tip Cards with decklists that would win in the competitive format. Stop blaming TPCi for this format like they are purposely sitting down with an R&D department that is so biased as to create cards to help specific decks. 4-6 Months ago Yanmega Prime was $4, and Donphan Prime was $10 at MOST. Alot of people missed out while they were trying to make their SP decks, Gyarados SF decks, and Sable-something decks win.

Certain people actually sat down, took time out of their day, and started building consistent and/or competitive decks and then traded for or bought the cards they need to complete them. Now other people sat down, took time out of their day, and sat in front of a computer screen and vented to a controlled group of people in hopes that someone would join the pity-party and agree. Which bandwagon did you join?

 

[cabd]

*reads title of thread *

Nothing.

/thread


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=36.853120,-119.729902

 

[vaporeon]

1- First turn rules
2- ZPST
3- Lack of good hitters thats not a dragon
4- catcher

 

[Poke Trainer J]

Its the nature of competitive TCGs. And yanmega is easy 35, which is fairly cheap compared to YGO and magic. And competitive decks can be made without yanmega: Reshiplosion is the most consistent top tier deck, and typlosion primes are only 7 a piece.

But that's only 1 deck, and I don't want to build a deck that other players in my area are already playing. That's like 2-3 TyRam decks in my area, I already have MewBox built and people keep telling me to run Yanmega Prime in it when I can only afford 2 at most since I'm on a budget. The last Fire deck I played was Charizard in MD-On and I want to be different from what my friends are playing.

 

[espeon200]

Please take my responses lightly. I'm responding seriously to what you put forward, not trying to attack you for an opinion that you hold.

Yeah I don't know If I'm alone on this but HGSS-On has proven to me to be one of the most frustrating and annoying formats I've ever played in mainly because of Yanmega Prime and Donphan Prime. So what's really wrong with this format?

Everything.

That is an excellent example of hyperbole.

There are too few good decks that are playable,

Reshiphlosion, Primetime, Stage 1s, Reshiboar, Magneboar, The Truth, Mew, Donphan & Dragons... ok, maybe not that one until Kyurem is released. There are more, though I'm sure you'll say the rest are just variations on a theme.

too few really good Trainers, Supporters, and Stadiums in the current Modified card pool (we have Collector, Catcher, Communication, and Junk Arm)

Stadiums are of course a given, but how many more "good Trainer, Supporters, and Stadiums" were there during Fall Battle Roads last season? Trainer engines make decks work, and there will always be some better than others.

and you basically either have to play a good deck or everyone laughs at you.

How is this different from any other format? Either you play an established deck or you work out your own awesome deck to beat the rest of the field. Both Nats and worlds introduced amazing metagame counters that did very well as surprise decks. When was the last time before those tournaments that unexpected decks challenged the meta seriously?

Now unless Noble Victories actually gives us alot more deck choices to choose from (which judging from the spoilers I saw on PokeBeach there's not a whole lot) instead of things that would be good except they keep getting killed by Donphan's or Yanmega, heck even Zekrom, the Pokemon TCG won't be fun anymore. Heck it's already gotten there with the B/W 1st Turn Rules.

If the game is no longer fun, why do you still play it?

Why does TPCi refuse to print cards to counter against Donphan Prime or even Yanmega Prime? Tornadus counters Donphan but what about Yanmega other than Zekrom and Magnezone? Not a whole lot is there?

Define "counter." Off the top of my head to counter Yanmega (excluding the two you just mentioned): Reshiram, Pachirisu+PlusPower, Pikachu (yes, the secret rare), Thundurus (ok, a bit of a stretch there). There are others, but I was only listing those that came to mind quickly.

I'm running a deck that "supposedly" needs $160 of a playset of cards in the deck guess what it is? Yes it's Yanmega Prime. The price tag on that bug is ridiculous especially with that upset from Canadian Nationals this year. Why should players have to spend $40 a piece on it when it should be $15 or $20 especially in this horrible economy. I'm trying to save money for other stuff that's not the Pokemon TCG but it's getting hard right now. I need to get a new pair of glasses, get more dental fillings, and get new clothes. But no, I can't unfortunately. >_>

You've probably heard this before, but TPCi doesn't control the secondary market. You can't walk into the Pokemon offices in Seattle and say "I want a Magnezone Prime for $10." They don't sell them. The rarity of Yanmega Prime is equal to that of Electrode Prime. You are as likely to pull an Electrode as you are to pull a Yanmega, Magnezone, Mew or Gengar. What inflates the price, then, is the fact that since the card is good people can charge what they want to for it. It's only worth what the players are willing to pay for it.

There's hardly any good enough cards in the current card pool for certain Rogue decks to become playable and even If they are playable most likely they are kept secret on various websites like on SixPrizes and other sites.

Then work on your own rogue decks. The card pool will change; it will grow. That's the way of things in a Collectable Card Game. If you're discouraged because you feel that elite players are keeping the good decks to themselves, then try and look ahead and see what will be good ahead of time. You can't force players to share lists. Players who want to keep their lists secret have every right to.

I know there's like 9-10 playable decks in the current HGSS-On format If not more.

Wait, I thought you said that there weren't that many good decks out there. 9-10 playable decks in an amazing amount. When was the last time there were that many competitive decks in a format?

Part of the problem is that some of these cards cost an arm and a leg to get ahold of when they shouldn't be the most expensive being like I said earlier Yanmega Prime and of course Tropical Beach which is "somewhat" reasonable considering it's a playable Worlds Promo so it's value is going to go up quite a bit.

But, at the same time you have one of the most winning decks in the format which can be obtained almost entirely by picking up various theme decks and tins. Seriously, Reshiphlosion is a major deck and it's dirt cheap compared to some of the other decks that have been meta. It's also not incredibly hard to put together a decent ZPS deck with your main money cards being Pachirisu and Catcher. You don't have to play Yanmega in this format to win games. There are other, cheaper options. Tropical Beach? It's pretty and cool, but it's not an essential part of any deck currently in the meta.

So yeah I'm struggling but it's hard.

Welcome to life. Sorry if my responses sound snide or mean. I get where you're coming from, but at the same time I think you oversimplify some of the problems and contradict yourself. The thing about Pokemon is that it really is a hobby game. You can't make a living playing Pokemon as you could playing another game such as Magic. It's a rough reality to face, but it is reality just the same. If you enjoy the Pokemon TCG, then keep playing it, but if you no longer enjoy it, stop spending your money on it and find something else to play. There are lots of other entertainments out there vying for your dollar. Pokemon will still be here if you want to come back.

 

[SMP88]

I read the whole thing and then saw

a.k.a. Card Slinger J on PokeBeach

and it all made sense.

Seriously though, quit whining. You say there are no counters to Yanmega except for Zekrom and Magnezone, which just happen to be 2 of the top decks in the format. If you think that Donphan and Yanmega are the only good decks in the format right now you either don't play any games or you can't think outside the box. I'm not sure how many more times it has to be said, but this format is a rock/paper/scissors format. Every meta deck has a deck that is plays well against and a deck that beats it pretty smoothly. On top of that there are rogue decks that can compete well in any tournament. Ross's deck is just one example. There was a Sharpedo deck that placed well at Nats, and I saw a deck that used Sigilyph and Jirachi do well at Battle Roads. Just because you can't think outside of Donphan/Yanmega doesn't mean the format is bad.

On the topic of prices, cards will fluctuate in price all the time. Yanmega's current price is still riding the wave from Nats, but as other decks become more viable the price will fall. Just look at Emboar and Magnezone's prices, they're half of what they were 2 months ago. You can easily build a well built, competitive meta deck for under $50. Not every deck has to run Donphan or Yanmega in it.

 

[cabd]

But that's only 1 deck, and I don't want to build a deck that other players in my area are already playing. That's like 2-3 TyRam decks in my area, I already have MewBox built and people keep telling me to run Yanmega Prime in it when I can only afford 2 at most since I'm on a budget. The last Fire deck I played was Charizard in MD-On and I want to be different from what my friends are playing.

Complaining about the metagame is one thing. Complaining "but everybody else took everything else" is entirely another. Not everybody can be Ross.

 

[Pablo]

First you start off by saying there are very few playable decks, and then you mention how you know there are at least 9-10 viable decks or more. Contradicting yourself in a single post is not a good idea to try and get a point across.

And no, I don't agree with you. Every format has its flaws, and no one is forcing you to play. You're saying you CAN'T spend money on dental fillings or a new pair of glasses because you have to pay $35 for a Yanmega? To me it looks more like you need to get your priorities straight.

 

[Poke Trainer J]

Reshiphlosion, Primetime, Stage 1s, Reshiboar, Magneboar, The Truth, Mew, Donphan & Dragons... ok, maybe not that one until Kyurem is released. There are more, though I'm sure you'll say the rest are just variations on a theme.

Like the most expensive decks in the format like MegaZone (Yanmega/Magnezone), Mew Aggro (Mew Prime/Yanmega Prime), and ZPST (Zekrom/Pachirisu/Shaymin/Tornadus)?

How is this different from any other format? Either you play an established deck or you work out your own awesome deck to beat the rest of the field. Both Nats and worlds introduced amazing metagame counters that did very well as surprise decks. When was the last time before those tournaments that unexpected decks challenged the meta seriously?

There's not enough playable cards in the current card pool to go Rogue and there probably won't be until we get the Psycho Drive and Hail Blizzard cards in English which will most likely be cut from Noble Victories next set. The rest of Red Collection has some interesting cards but nothing too noteworthy.

Define "counter." Off the top of my head to counter Yanmega (excluding the two you just mentioned): Reshiram, Pachirisu+PlusPower, Pikachu (yes, the secret rare), Thundurus (ok, a bit of a stretch there). There are others, but I was only listing those that came to mind quickly.

Pikachu's only good If you run it in ZPST but even then it's weak to Donphan which makes it almost unplayable. Thundurus is very lackluster compared to Zekrom. There is no current counter to Yanmega Prime cause there is no :lightning: that isn't weak to :fighting: because Donphan is usually teched with Yanmega am I right?

Then work on your own rogue decks. The card pool will change; it will grow. That's the way of things in a Collectable Card Game. If you're discouraged because you feel that elite players are keeping the good decks to themselves, then try and look ahead and see what will be good ahead of time. You can't force players to share lists. Players who want to keep their lists secret have every right to.

I've tried but have been heavily criticized for it. With the current card pool as it stands there are hardly any good competitive Rogue decks to build cause most popular decks in the current metagame can counter every one of them for type advantage. Catcher can also ruin setup and deck ideas to the point where you're stuck going with Trainer Lock with Goth or Plume.

But, at the same time you have one of the most winning decks in the format which can be obtained almost entirely by picking up various theme decks and tins. Seriously, Reshiphlosion is a major deck and it's dirt cheap compared to some of the other decks that have been meta. It's also not incredibly hard to put together a decent ZPS deck with your main money cards being Pachirisu and Catcher. You don't have to play Yanmega in this format to win games. There are other, cheaper options. Tropical Beach? It's pretty and cool, but it's not an essential part of any deck currently in the meta.

Don't go saying that Reshiphlosion (TyRam) is the only Tier 1 Budget deck in the current metagame, there has to be other decks just as good and affordable. I've tried Samurott/Electrode and that deck while it can be good just is unfavorable because of ZPST and Magnezone it's not even funny. Even If I tried running Tangrowth over Samurott that deck would get creamed by TyRam.

 

[Caleb]

I read the OP's post, and found myself pretty surprised. While I agree that this format has some problems, the problems you're pointing out exist in every format. There's always going to be some decks that are better than others, and there's always going to be expensive cards. That's how the game is.

Now as far as material problems go we do have a couple.

-The first turn rule: I'm sorry, but this really needs to be fixed. On the other hand there's nothing TPCi can do about it.
-The only really "broken" card in this format is junk arm. Catcher isn't so good when you can't junk arm. Max potion, communication, dual ball, rare candy, etc. etc. All of those cards come out of junk arm. I'm sorry if anyone disagrees on this, but to be honest if I had to chose one card to eliminate from the format it would be junk arm not catcher. (and for those reading don't take this wrong I don't have a big problem with junk arm, I'm just pointing out that it's worse then catcher.)

Well I think a couple was an overstatement. Really there's just one problem.

 

[Qwachansey]

Donphan shouldn't even be a huge problem for you anyway. And with Eviolite it's just gonna get worse.

 

[Ignatious]

This whole thread is amazing to me. I have defined Donphan as unplayable to my standards, yet someone else claims it is broken. Why is that amazing? Because it shows how open the format truly is.

 

[psychup2034]

There are too few good decks that are playable, too few really good Trainers, Supporters, and Stadiums in the current Modified card pool (we have Collector, Catcher, Communication, and Junk Arm) and you basically either have to play a good deck or everyone laughs at you.

47 Battle Roads. 22 different winning decks. There are too few good decks that are playable? Who are you kidding? We still have 3 weeks of battle roads, and already have this great variety. It would seem to me like you've been living under a rock.

Masters Battle Roads 1st Place Decks
9 x ZPS varients (7 x ZPST, 2 x ZPS)
7 x Reshiphlosion
5 x Primetime (2 x Y/M, 2 x Y/M/K)
3 x Reshiboar
3 x Stage 1's
2 x Magneboar
2 x Zekrom
2 x Gothitelle/Reuniclus/Dragons (1 x G/R/Resh/Z, 1 x G/R/Z)
1 x Reuniclus/Vileplume/Donphan/Zekrom
1 x Donphan/Yanmega/Zoroark
1 x Donphan/Yanmega
1 x Donphan and Dragons
1 x Donphan Prime/Zoroark/Tornadus
1 x Lanturn/Yanmega/Zekrom
1 x Mew/Yanmega
1 x Mew/Cinccino
1 x Samurott/Donphan
1 x Yanmega/Weavile
1 x Yanmega/Kingdra
1 x Blastoise/Floatzel
1 x Cincinno/Yanmega/Kingdra
1 x Horsemega​

 

[EvanBaker]

My take...

There IS a problem with the format... but none of the things you discussed have anything to do with it. There are many, many playable decks, and some of them (Reshiphlosion, Gothitelle) are inexpensive to build.

The major problems with this format are:
1) The Rock-Paper-Scissors nature. In the past, Gyarados could play pretty evenly with LuxChomp, despite being weak to it. Conversely, I never lost to a Machamp deck with my LuxChomp deck in a tournament. Now, nearly every top deck has an auto-loss, and deck selection for a given tournament is often more important than actually playing the game. The reason for this dispariety brings me to the next problem...

2) The lack of search-based supporters. Supporter cards like Roseanne's Research, Cyrus Conspiracy, Scott, and Bebe's Search allowed for pointed, specific search. This meant it was much easier to include counter cards to help your bad match-ups - things like Black Belt and Twins were searchable via Cyrus, and you could play less basic energy because of Roseanne's and Cyrus. Now, we have draw-based supporters: shuffle your hand in, and pray to hit what you need. This means you need to play 3-of's and 4-of's; 1-of's just aren't realistic.

3) And finally, the unbalanced first turn. This one is just so obvious that it's stupid. Even if you don't agree with 1 or 2, I think we can all agree that there is nothing fair or balanced about the current first turn rules.

 

[Poke Trainer J]

Turns out there was a deck I forgot that was playable with Catcher and Junk Arm, Mewbox Aggro with Cinccino and Zoroark. So yeah despite possibly getting countered by Trainer Lock it might have a chance somewhat. I'm testing it out and see how it fares. I overreacted in regards to this thread and somewhere along the way I also contradicted myself as well.

So yeah I apologize for making this thread, I guess I was just disappointed that I didn't have a good enough deck for Battle Roads because I couldn't afford Yanmega's and now that I looked back on a deck I tore apart long ago I rebuilt it and IMO it's working alot better than the Vileplume Lock variant I was running that required the Yanmega's to work consistently.

 

[kwisdumb]

I think the main problem with this format is that there are too many playable decks.

 

[vaporeon]

I think the problem are the Dragons. They have huge hp and do huge damage. Outrage makes them broken and they are hard to take down. The Problem's not the decks but how easy Pokemon are to play now. We also don't need cards like Junk Arm because it makes the new PlusPower broken and does not need to be in the same format.

 

[Poke Trainer J]

I think the main problem with this format is that there are too many playable decks.

Okay, okay I get it. There's nothing wrong with the format regarding the way you put it. You don't have to make fun of me just because I made a mistake thinking that there was a problem. I feel bad enough as it is... -___-