Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

What's wrong with trainer lock?

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Trevenant is strong, but compared to other cards in the set its balanced. It seems like one-sided trainer lock is op but that's only because many item cards right now are op (Hypnotoxic Laser, Muscle Band etc). A 110 HP Pokémon with a mediocre attack that is turned into a really bad attack by a simple opposing Mr. Mime needs a strong effect like trainer lock to be even viable.

losjackal said:
Red Signal and Garbotoxin are the biggest counters obviously.
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How is Garbotoxin a counter? Every Gothitelle variation plays a Tool Scrapper right now and after that you can't attach a new tool.

rileysill32 said:
1 genesect ex - 3 plasma energy

there are your 4 catcher spots in any old format deck. mk
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That needs your energy per turn, and you can't search for Plasma Energy with Skyla. If this would replace Catcher, why don't people play it that way?
 
Guys you are looking at the wrong problem.
The real problem is that they have an easy way to paralyze the active and then retreat
 
ShadowGuard said:
How is Garbotoxin a counter? Every Gothitelle variation plays a Tool Scrapper right now and after that you can't attach a new tool.
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I don't know your definition of "counter", but to me it's a countermove. If they put up the lock, you can break the lock with Garbodor, giving you a chance to set up further. Nothing guarantees that they will draw into the Tool Scrapper the next turn, but when they do, then your next countermove is to KO the Trevenant.

Normal guy said:
Guys you are looking at the wrong problem.
The real problem is that they have an easy way to paralyze the active and then retreat
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How?
 
I hate when people say things like genesect is a viable alternative to catcher. No it's not. If you think it is, throw it and 3 plasma into your deck. Do it. There's a reason people are not actively doing that in decks outside of a few (virgin, plasma etc). Trust me, I TRIED to make it work in Darkrai and it didn't. Catcher with the flip is still better.
 
I don't see what the worry is of trainer lock now. Trainer lock is only useful when we can auto paralyse (Gothlock)/ keep pokes alive KO'd (The Truth) - in recent past. Although there are some Gothlocks placing well at Cities, Genesect/Virizion is in the format. Item lock is only useful when it is mixed with another broken mechanic. Trevenant will increase the consistency of Gothlock (now Trevlock?) however, as I stated before, Accelgor is getting more and more useless because Genesect/Virizion is winning most cities and possibly the BDIF.

A 110 hp Pokemon with a bad attack will make absolutely no difference to the format - especially when its best buddy is useless against the most successful deck in format. The loss of a Catcher without a flip doesn't help it either.
 
It's Accelgor that is the problem, not Trainer Lock. I actually think Trainer Lock (in the form of Gothitelle/Trevenant) is good for the game, as it's an interesting, but not completely overpowering, strategy when Accelgor isn't involved. Accelgor, however, makes it almost COMPLETELY unstoppable unless you have a counter. Without a way to get off an attack somehow under Accelgor/Gothitelle (either via Keldeo, Virizion or some lesser counter), the match-up is more or less unwinnable. No other cards do this or even come close. Garbodor is stoppable with single cards like Tool Scrapper, and doesn't completely stop decks from making plays. (A Blastoise deck can still manually attach and eventually power up an attacker, for instance. It's almost impossible to even get a single attack off, let alone the likely 3+ you need to stop the lock, under Accelgor/item lock.)

I don't miss Vileplume, however. Being from the bench presents a lot more problems, the fact it affects both players doesn't stop it being more powerful. ;p
 
Normal guy said:
Guys you are looking at the wrong problem.
The real problem is that they have an easy way to paralyze the active and then retreat
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How?


rivershock said:
Accelgor, however, makes it almost COMPLETELY unstoppable unless you have a counter
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Accelgor attack gets copied by mew EX then if you are using goth or the tree you attach the float stone to it retreat to mew EX and use the attack mew EX goes back in the deck and a new pokemon has to replace it which they will choose the trainer locking pokemon
 
Accelgor + Trainer Lock has plenty of counters.

-Virizion EX + Grass
-Genesect EX's Red Signal to shift off the Item lock.
-Vanilluxe NXD's Slippery Soles
-Keldeo EX's Rush In
-Audino's Busy Body
-Sigilyph/Suicune's Safeguard Ability forcing them to attack with Accelgor, which can lead to whiffing.
-Promoting something with a low enough HP that it gets knocked out going into your turn, breaking the lock and letting you attack.
-Playing Mew EX in your own deck allowing you to copy your opponent's Accelgor for Deck and Cover.
-Chatot for getting rid of Float Stones.
-Sneasel's Corner and Snorlax's Block.

This hardly seems like a problem, and there are so many things that deal with it in some manner in the game right now that the playing field is very leveled against such a deck.
 
Charranitar said:
Accelgor + Trainer Lock has plenty of counters.

-Virizion EX + Grass
-Genesect EX's Red Signal to shift off the Item lock.
-Vanilluxe NXD's Slippery Soles
-Keldeo EX's Rush In
-Audino's Busy Body
-Sigilyph/Suicune's Safeguard Ability forcing them to attack with Accelgor, which can lead to whiffing.
-Promoting something with a low enough HP that it gets knocked out going into your turn, breaking the lock and letting you attack.
-Playing Mew EX in your own deck allowing you to copy your opponent's Accelgor for Deck and Cover.
-Chatot for getting rid of Float Stones.
-Sneasel's Corner and Snorlax's Block.

This hardly seems like a problem, and there are so many things that deal with it in some manner in the game right now that the playing field is very leveled against such a deck.
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Out of 2 of these, the rest are unrealistic. All of the above but Audino and perhaps Keldeo, the others require a huge deck change or are just worth the deck space and risk of starting with. The problem with trainer lock is that it turned one sided and allows the player who has the lock to use the overpowered items. Everything else just helps it.
 
I would appreciate this argument more if you hadn't put in so many unrealistic/one dimensional ways.

Charranitar said:
Accelgor + Trainer Lock has plenty of counters.

-Virizion EX + Grass This one is good.
-Genesect EX's Red Signal to shift off the Item lock. This one is okay, but unreliable under Trainer lock and requires a lot of deck space for anything that isn't running Plasma already.
-Vanilluxe NXD's Slippery Soles This one is really bad, and I don't think you need to hear why.
-Keldeo EX's Rush In This one is okay, until they play Catcher, flip heads and OHKO the Keldeo with a Bangle.
-Audino's Busy Body This one is okay, though you can't search it out under Trainer lock and it doesn't remove Poison.
-Sigilyph/Suicune's Safeguard Ability forcing them to attack with Accelgor, which can lead to whiffing. This one is bad because you usually do not have a choice on what to promote when you're paralyzed, and even if you did they are dead within like one cycle. And even if they do whiff, you have to get them out of the active spot for something that isn't bad at attacking, which in the case of Suicune is costly/a pain, especially since you can't Float/Switch under Lock.
-Promoting something with a low enough HP that it gets knocked out going into your turn, breaking the lock and letting you attack. It's not easy to promote something new when the whole point of the Accelgor lock is to not let you do that. How many decks do you play where your main attacker gets OHKO'd by Accelgor? Most of the viable mons that get OHKO'd get OHKO'd due to weakness, so they might be able to play around it (eg you send up Mime, they use Accelgor and you are in a very awkward spot).
-Playing Mew EX in your own deck allowing you to copy your opponent's Accelgor for Deck and Cover. This is creative, but only really an option for decks with DCE. Maybe Emboar/Blastoise but they don't have much other uses for that Mew.
-Chatot for getting rid of Float Stones. That's a pretty big waste of an opportunity to attack. All it takes to undo your work here is a single Float Stone attach (they only need one in play at a given time).
-Sneasel's Corner and Snorlax's Block. Corner and Block only really do something to them if you can do it perpetually. If you just sit there blocking them but not attacking them, they get a bunch of time to develop their board, find a Catcher/Escape Rope and continue to run you over. Sneasel will KO a Trevenant eventually, anyway.

This hardly seems like a problem, and there are so many things that deal with it in some manner in the game right now that the playing field is very leveled against such a deck.
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I agree this concept can be countered, but let's keep this discussion to counters that actually matter and work.
 
The only counters that truly work would be Blastoise/Emboar with Genesect with Plasma energy with their ace spec being Scoop Up Cyclone because they dont rely on 1 attachment per turn and can spend it on on the plasma. Any deck with plasma that can afford the manual attach to genesect, not many can do this if any. Audino's Busy Body lets you attack but they must be in hand. Keldeo is a good one too but thats if they dont play cacher.

Really all counters to it involves a hugely modified list. I think a really good Ninetails deck can be really good but then it loses to everything else. Perhaps a deck can afford to fit a 4-4 Ninetails?
 
Along with Trevenant, we will also get Rainbow Energy back. Expect Virizion EX to be included more for protection against status conditions. Not to mention the Stage 1 Fairy that is also being released with that Ability.
 
I think that trainer lock is strong, but can be countered by some planning. TCPI tries to keep things balenced so nothing is too strong. Trainer lock can be beaten if you establish early pressure on it, and most decks can do that.
 
I always loved Trainer Lock. Though I much preferred the Vileplume UD version; locking both of the players from the bench. It meant that decks built around it had to think outside of the box with their deck skeletons not having guaranteed access to trainers, and that people had to keep in mind that you couldn't just fill a deck with trainers because of it's existence.

Playing a Trainer Lock deck felt like playing a different game entirely. One of lock-downs and whittling. Not of knocking out as soon as possible to win.

Oh and Catcher sucks so anything that blocks that off is fine with me. The card that single-handedly drove me away from the game. (Well, that and the big, powerful basics which released alongside it.)
 
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