Where's the love?

[LOLZ]

@All- No matter what the TPCI team, PTOs and Judges do, from Battle Roads all the way up to Nationals/Worlds there will always be players unhappy about something. 1300 players at Nationals this year, an increase from last year, only prove that TPCI is doing something right.
IMO- I thought nationals was amazing, thank you to everyone who was involved in putting on this event.

@Slow Play Complaints- If there weren’t guidelines addressing slow play (and stalling) issues and how Judges should handle them the amount of complaints about “stalling” and “losing on time” would increase.

Follow the rules, play quicker and their shouldn’t be problems. Also consider your moves while your opponent. I judge more then I play however when I do get a chance to play I know 90% of my plays before I draw my card to start my turn. During my opponents turn I know they can do X, Y or Z. So I figure if they do X or Y I can do P, Q and R. If they use move Z I’ll have to do S then P, Q and R. When my opponent comes out of left field with W or I draw into M or N I am in that 10% where I don’t know what my next play will be, in this case I will take that extra 10 seconds to come up with the better play. When I play my games rarely go to time.

I end with this- IT IS ONLY A GAME

-Lolz

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

I end with this- IT IS ONLY A GAME

-Lolz

I would like to start by saying that you must be very popular, as I have heard many tales of people doing things for you ("for the LOLZ"). :thumb:

Steve, I think you probably could have justified a penalty against the player who brought an all-Japanese deck to an event (unless the player was from Japan or some similar circumstance).
A few Japanese cards are cool, but there is no arguing that a completely-foreign deck is downright disruptive.

I guess I don't have too much problem with a HJ going off the reservation on the rare occasion, just so long as he/she can show they had good reasoning to do so.

As far as the stalling issue, I can't give you a specific amount of seconds that a turn can be, but I can tell you when I see it.
If a player has already used their energy attachment, already retreated, has only one option for an attack, used all powers/effects currently in play, knows they will be unable to avoid a loss on the next turn, and proceeds to spend 5-10 minutes thinking about all the nothing they can do. . . . that time/specific scenario doesn't need to be in any guideline for a judge to know that it's stalling.

As much as I like the notion of more specific time requirements on actions, it also leaves the door open for severe gamesmanship.
If a player does a long, drawn-out series of moves and goes just short of the time limit with every single move, is it stalling? How could you give a penalty for stalling when the rules say it isn't technically stalling?
The more experienced judges would undoubtedly find a way to deal with it, but it would cause problems for a number of the younger judges.

If a person has been playing at a, "lively" pace all game, they are only winning by one prize, and when they find out time is about to be called, they start playing at a much slower pace (though still within the guidelines), what would you think?
Gamesmanship, Stalling? How could you show it when he/she is playing to the same limit as everybody else?

 

[PokePop]

@SteveP: What is there to Q w/ PokePop? He said the GUIDELINES are there to be used. He said he did this ONCE and was backed later by TPCi. He isnt saying go wild and ignore the guidelines. He just said IF you do, you better have a good reason. We all agree the "rules" are there to be followed as guidelines. The "rules" also allow for deviations in them, depending on tier level and age/experience.

Dont tell me you have never softened a recommended penalty when dealing with a new JR????

Keith

Just to clarify. I recognize that my statement was provocative and could be dangerous if someone takes it as license to go nuts with their rulings.

I'll note that I made the ruling in consultation with other top judges and defended my ruling to POP before actually making it (since it was at a large event) so it was "pre-supported", not supported later.

I consider all of the potential implications before varying from the guidelines and only do it with serious consideration. Not something for the novice judge to do.
And, as noted, not without consultation.

Most of the top judges make themselves available via cell phone for consultation and even though I'm on the Rules Team, I often consult with other high level judges and often get calls in return.
Judges don't have to make any hard decision alone as long as they have access to a phone.

 

[SteveP]

...Judges don't have to make any hard decision alone as long as they have access to a phone.

Yup, that's a great practice Mike.:thumb:

If you're unsure, make the call.

As for the all-Japanese decks pre-this-season, you guys made very gutsy calls to disallow them, calls that I was prevented from making by my fellow judges and PTO. In hindsight, I feel the no-call was the proper thing, due to the lack of support by the rules (at that time) -- that is, the allowed, legal use of Japanese cards trumped the disruption argument -- IMO.

---------- Post added 07/08/2010 at 01:06 AM ----------

@Jeremy, that's why slow-play and stalling are tough calls for judges to make. When giving the penalty, the first thing the player is going to ask is "Why?" Without a turn-limit, the judge must point at specific actions within the turn that caused the penalty. Judges can't just say, "It feels right."

Nevertheless, I know the guidelines specifically state that it is not legal to do all your actions "to the full extent of the recommended time limits" (or similiar words).

 

[Jeremy Badeaux]

@Jeremy, that's why slow-play and stalling are tough calls for judges to make. When giving the penalty, the first thing the player is going to ask is "Why?" Without a turn-limit, the judge must point at specific actions within the turn that caused the penalty. Judges can't just say, "It feels right."

Nevertheless, I know the guidelines specifically state that it is not legal to do all your actions "to the full extent of the recommended time limits" (or similiar words).

I agree, but I'm trying to say that no matter how much the rules micro-manage how many seconds you can take for every little action, stalling calls will always be a pain for a lot of judges.

Admittedly, I seem to have done a terrible job of saying it in my previous post. lol

 

[Lawman]

Yup, that's a great practice Mike.:thumb:

If you're unsure, make the call.

As for the all-Japanese decks pre-this-season, you guys made very gutsy calls to disallow them, calls that I was prevented from making by my fellow judges and PTO. In hindsight, I feel the no-call was the proper thing, due to the lack of support by the rules (at that time) -- that is, the allowed, legal use of Japanese cards trumped the disruption argument -- IMO.

---------- Post added 07/08/2010 at 01:06 AM ----------

@Jeremy, that's why slow-play and stalling are tough calls for judges to make. When giving the penalty, the first thing the player is going to ask is "Why?" Without a turn-limit, the judge must point at specific actions within the turn that caused the penalty. Judges can't just say, "It feels right."

Nevertheless, I know the guidelines specifically state that it is not legal to do all your actions "to the full extent of the recommended time limits" (or similiar words).

You bring up a good point Steve. Go through the proper chain of command on site before you make a call. No judge IMO should be calling outside the bldg w/o clearing it 1st with the HJ/PTO running said event.

Keith

 

[P_A]

The resources are there to get beforehand - if the head judge does not have access to the compendium and the penalty guidelines AT THE EVENT, then something is seriously wrong. Either the PTO or the Head judge aren't doing their job good enough. Then if there are judging situations that come up, a consensus of the judges can usually take care of most other situations, but we must realize the head judge is the control mechanism. If he/she still is having problem with an issue, then a call can be made as a last resort. Remember that all of this eats up time. An outside call doubles your time for a ruling since you must explain the situation all over again to someone who is not at the event. Time management at the venue might stop a call outside the building, and the judge ruling may have to be done without the benefit of a phone call. That's why it's so important to use the resources available to us.

Now that being said, that doesn't excuse a rushed ruling. You take the time necessary to do a proper ruling based on what knowledge you have, so the integrity of the event is at it's best.

 

[bullados]

I agree, but I'm trying to say that no matter how much the rules micro-manage how many seconds you can take for every little action, stalling calls will always be a pain for a lot of judges.

Jeremy, please be specific about the calls you're referencing. Most of the calls are for Slow Play, not for Stalling. There is a difference.

 

[SteveP]

Jeremy, please be specific about the calls you're referencing. Most of the calls are for Slow Play, not for Stalling. There is a difference.

The big difference is that stalling is intentional. Beyond that, I'd say they're pretty much identical. If you find intent to cheat, make the "stalling" call; otherwise, it's slow-play. Correct me if I'm wrong.

---------- Post added 07/08/2010 at 03:57 PM ----------

The resources are there to get beforehand - if the head judge does not have access to the compendium and the penalty guidelines AT THE EVENT, then something is seriously wrong. Either the PTO or the Head judge aren't doing their job good enough. Then if there are judging situations that come up, a consensus of the judges can usually take care of most other situations, but we must realize the head judge is the control mechanism. If he/she still is having problem with an issue, then a call can be made as a last resort. Remember that all of this eats up time. An outside call doubles your time for a ruling since you must explain the situation all over again to someone who is not at the event. Time management at the venue might stop a call outside the building, and the judge ruling may have to be done without the benefit of a phone call. That's why it's so important to use the resources available to us.

Now that being said, that doesn't excuse a rushed ruling. You take the time necessary to do a proper ruling based on what knowledge you have, so the integrity of the event is at it's best.

Agreed! Getting it right is more important than timeliness.

I've never judged at a major event here in Colorado where the PTO hasn't provided multiple printed copies of the rules and latest compendium. For lesser events, such as BRs, he provides them online. Personally, I prefer them online because they're easier to search - although it's generally faster to consult fellow judges when you're unsure.

---------- Post added 07/08/2010 at 04:04 PM ----------

I agree, but I'm trying to say that no matter how much the rules micro-manage how many seconds you can take for every little action, stalling calls will always be a pain for a lot of judges.

Admittedly, I seem to have done a terrible job of saying it in my previous post. lol

Naw, I got you. It's a pain because you have to observe and/or investigate. Plus, for stalling, you have to find intent. Finally, you have to be prepared to justify the ruling. All this effort takes time, which is the big pain. :frown:

 

[bulbasnore]

We understand the 1st deck search (or at least the better judges and the ones on my staff this year @ Nats bc I told them!) is the most important one of the match bc players catalog...

And, this (limit does not apply to early game searches) is what we taught at the basic judge seminar, too. Because this is the clear implication of the guidelines.

Slow play calls are made on a pattern of exceeding the guidelines, according to the judge manual. We teach that a pattern is judged on a minimum of 3 or more significant overages of the per play guidelines. Then, you look at the PG for the suggested starting penalty for that Tier of event.

At Nats, AFAIK, the few folks who got a PP for slow play got a warning before that. Our pre-determined approach was that Slow Play was cross-checked with another judge making an independent assessment before PP. That's two judges (minimum and sometimes 3) independently finding a pattern of slow play exceeding the guidelines, as above.

Those are right that are saying this: if the guidelines are off from what they should be, get POP to change them. A discussion here is a good forum for ideas and for registering your opinion, but a cogent note to POP is also useful. If it needs to say, 'only if one player objects', or 'time per card' or whatever, make the cases that get it printed in there. Until then, the judge is supposed to learn and apply the guidelines given. This is for consistency across the program.

Personally, I'd feel like it was irresponsible if the MA judge staff meeting had said, "OK, folks, this is T128, so don't call slow play unless one player objects to pace." From my perspective, by the time one player gets torqued enough to call the judge on that, we're in the last few minutes. At that point, if the person is stubborn enough to not play within the guidelines, and let the judge do a proper assessment of slow play over 3 or more moves, they um, get a warning and the other player loses the match and claims they were stalled out.

That's interesting - thanks for the info. I wonder, though, if the biggest tournament of the season is the correct venue for "training players" to do anything.

Let me take the other side of this... this is why judges need to give the Tier 1 calls on Slow Play at BR & Cities, etc. If someone comes from an area where the per play guidelines are unknown or the staff doesn't know how to practically implement them, some folks are going to be startled and thrown off when they hit an environment where they are known and used properly.

And whoever said, slow play guidelines should be applied early game is right -- and early rounds, too. Consistency throughout the event, and throughout each round is the goal. Is the reason things seem like they got tight late that it took a while to make the first observations that showed a warning was earned before the later double independent observations showed a prize penalty was earned?

I like 'airing grievances' publicly, because I really like mass communication and information exchange in coming up with solutions. ... Does my e-mailing my suggestions vs airing them here do that much of a difference? is the difference even GOOD?

In general, doing both is good. In the case of specific incidents, my advice would be public discussion is fine, but private direct report is essential.

To the player who wrote that POP doesn't seem to care... they care. No inside info: they may or may not agree with every report, they may not find every report sufficiently detailed to be actionable, but I'm as sure as I can be from this distance that everything gets read. I can tell you from personal experience and firsthand report of colleagues that questions are asked, discussions had and directions given. Do speak up directly to POP. There are just a handful of them and a zillion of us, so I think they can't respond to every issue raised, but I'm pretty confident they read them all thoughtfully.

He made his comment in response to my initial statement that judges can't "legally" tell a player that their turn is too long (without pointing to specific actions) and give them a penalty. There are no turn limits -- only action limits.

Agreed. I don't find turn limits in the guidelines and I think generating some turn time limit and not actively applying the per action guidelines is not only unnecessary/not useful, but nigh impossible to justify from the current set of directions given to judges by POP.

 

[Chromecatz]

@All- No matter what the TPCI team, PTOs and Judges do, from Battle Roads all the way up to Nationals/Worlds there will always be players unhappy about something. 1300 players at Nationals this year, an increase from last year, only prove that TPCI is doing something right.
IMO- I thought nationals was amazing, thank you to everyone who was involved in putting on this event.

@Slow Play Complaints- If there weren’t guidelines addressing slow play (and stalling) issues and how Judges should handle them the amount of complaints about “stalling” and “losing on time” would increase.

Follow the rules, play quicker and their shouldn’t be problems. Also consider your moves while your opponent. I judge more then I play however when I do get a chance to play I know 90% of my plays before I draw my card to start my turn. During my opponents turn I know they can do X, Y or Z. So I figure if they do X or Y I can do P, Q and R. If they use move Z I’ll have to do S then P, Q and R. When my opponent comes out of left field with W or I draw into M or N I am in that 10% where I don’t know what my next play will be, in this case I will take that extra 10 seconds to come up with the better play. When I play my games rarely go to time.

I end with this- IT IS ONLY A GAME

-Lolz

Thats because you play SHUPPET.

continue

 

[DarthPika]

Thats because you play SHUPPET.

continue

I've found many people who use such quick decks rarely appreciate how long some of the slower, more difficult decks can take to use. Heck, when I used kingdra back at regs, I had a total of 1 game come to time. Most of the time, it was either win or lose in the first few turns.