why does POP do this?

[PokePop]

Just for the people who are confused about it

Well....
That may not be correct now per the ruling from Japan.


However, if something says "not evolved", it's clear. Legends are not evolved.
Downer Material will be ruled at Nats that it does not affect Legends.

We are still waiting on an official ruling on this, but the judges are aware of the Japanese ruling.

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

Unfortunately with no POP ruling on these things despite there being a clearly defined answer by PCL you can't much appeal because Pokebeach's FAQ translations aren't a very reputable source.

They're more reputable and reliable than TPCi. -_- I wonder why TPCi takes so darn long to get these things sorted out when the documents are on the official Japanese site. They should have these things translated at the same time as the cards.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

Well....
That may not be correct now per the ruling from Japan.


However, if something says "not evolved", it's clear. Legends are not evolved.
Downer Material will be ruled at Nats that it does not affect Legends.

We are still waiting on an official ruling on this, but the judges are aware of the Japanese ruling.

Did you see what just happened here?

Somebody voiced a concern on PokeGym. It got responses.

THEN... there was a pending rule put on the NATS floor as a result of his concern.

The "POP doesn't listen to us" banter has officially been pushed closer to the window to be tossed out into the abyss of non-reality.

Hatter - LOL @ your "Take Out" interjection. That was funny :lol: It's like you tossed coals into the fire.

For those who are confused. Legends are POKEMON and Take out targets unevolved POKEMON (not basics). Take Out should work just fine vs. a Legend.

 

[uuuufff]

i think what people are worried about is the "we are waiting on the official ruling for this" bit. How hard can it be to simply work out on a correct english ruling (not a japanese one) that will affect thousands of player's decisions at nationals and worlds. People are paid to get things moving along in pokemon - why can't this simply just be done? Just work out a ruling ASAP so people don't rock up to high-level tournaments with no idea about a relevant ruling. it just seems unprofessional to me.

 

[Kayle]

We might be waiting for the exact official ruling, but they DID move it along. They said, "This is how we are ruling it at Nationals."

 

[nardd]

I think uuuufff's point is that this issue should have been taken care of before it became a real issue, especially so close to a big tournament like Nationals. How long have we had unleashed now? Like said above, this affects people's testing for Nationals and should be resolved faster than it has been.

 

[hueglin]

Mewtwo and Machamp state 'unevolved Pokemon', while Downer Material states 'Basic Pokemon'. I would be surprised if it was ruled that Downer Material DOES work on Legends (since they aren't Basic Pokemon).

EDIT: Keep in mind unevolved =/= basic. In some cases, Basic Pokemon can be evolved (baby evolution). In others, Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokemon can be unevolved (but not basic) via Garchomp Lv. X's Restore attack.

Gastrodon (E or W Sea) can also be brought into play as a Basic Pokemon using Gastrodon East Sea's Attack. So in some cases Evolved Pokemon can be Basic Pokemon. Just another example of how complicated things can get.

 

[losjackal]

Gastrodon (E or W Sea) can also be brought into play as a Basic Pokemon using Gastrodon East Sea's Attack. So in some cases Evolved Pokemon can be Basic Pokemon. Just another example of how complicated things can get.

True. One way to think about it is the difference between a card that says "basic"/"stage 1"/"stage 2" and what that pokemon actually is when it is put into play. Garchomp Lv X's Restore attack also can take any pokemon card from discard and immediately put it into play as a "basic" pokemon. The attack is stating "basic" with regards to game play because it's overruling what may be printed on the card. Similarly, when you evolve Mime Jr. into Mr. Mime, Mr. Mime is considered "evolved" in the game state as per the Baby Evolution poke-power. Game state always trumps whatever the card says.

Legend cards say "Legend", not "Basic".
Machamp Take Out KO's pokemon that aren't evolved. Legends don't evolve, therefore they are knocked out.
Azelf Downer Material affects basic pokemon. Legends aren't basic, therefore they are unaffected.

 

[ShadowGuard]

True. One way to think about it is the difference between a card that says "basic"/"stage 1"/"stage 2" and what that pokemon actually is when it is put into play. Garchomp Lv X's Restore attack also can take any pokemon card from discard and immediately put it into play as a "basic" pokemon. The attack is stating "basic" with regards to game play because it's overruling what may be printed on the card.

Actually, it's considered a "stage 2 unevolved Pokémon". Effects that target on Stage 2 Pokémon are still applied. I'm not even sure if Azelf's PokéBody is applied.


btw don't complain about more difficult playtesting because of missing rulings. In Germany and other European countries we got to know the new set list about three weeks before Nationals. And still, decks containing UL cards did very well.

 

[Frunket]

another example was last year's Worlds, the POP team announces During the tournament that someone who is "Looker's Investigated" can draw 1 at a time instead of declaring how many they are gonna draw, prior to drawing.

So you're telling me that all the crap i endured at battleroads and regional tournaments, even local leagues, over playing lookers as it turned out i was right to draw one card at a time?

 

[Vhind]

btw don't complain about more difficult playtesting because of missing rulings. In Germany and other European countries we got to know the new set list about three weeks before Nationals. And still, decks containing UL cards did very well.

I agree completely.

People too often overlook all the good that is done for us, the players, and instead focus on minute slip-ups (if they can even be called that). Who cares if a ruling is late? Who cares if there is a misunderstanding of terminology? Can't we just appreciate the game, community, and benefits that the Pokemon Company delivers?

 

[evil psyduck]

So you're telling me that all the crap i endured at battleroads and regional tournaments, even local leagues, over playing lookers as it turned out i was right to draw one card at a time?

You do have to announce before you start drawing how many you are going to draw. If you don't then you have to draw five.

 

[NoPoke]

You do have to announce before you start drawing how many you are going to draw. If you don't then you have to draw five.

That wasn't how it was played at Worlds.
Play Lookers
Look at opponents hand.
Decide if you or opponent shuffles and draws.
The player drawing can look at each card as they draw and decide if they want to stop or continue drawing after each card.
This is apparently how the card is played in Japan.

Don't know if that has become standard after worlds. Worlds sits a little outside the normal tournament structure and breaks some tournament rules too.

 

[Ninjask88]

That wasn't how it was played at Worlds.
Play Lookers
Look at opponents hand.
Decide if you or opponent shuffles and draws.
The player drawing can look at each card as they draw and decide if they want to stop or continue drawing after each card.
This is apparently how the card is played in Japan.

Don't know if that has become standard after worlds. Worlds sits a little outside the normal tournament structure and breaks some tournament rules too.

I do believe that World's rulings do not apply to normal play but I am not for sure.

So this big argument is all about Basic Pokemon Correct? Is this not settled very simply.
If the Pokemon is a Basic Pokemon then wouldn't it say basic on the card? Or if it is put in play differently then wouldn't the card that set it in play say the Pokemon is a basic? If it doesn't say anything about that then the card is set in play as what is printed on the card.

No onto evolved Pokemon. What do you do if you evolve a Pokemon? You put it on top of the previous card. Now, how to tell if it is evolved: Is there a card underneath it. If there is then it is evolved ifthere isn't then it isn't evolved.

For an evolved Basic, what does the card say? Basic but there is a card underneath it so isn't it a Stage 1? Nope! it is an evolved basic because there is a card underneath it and it says basic.

That is how I understand all of this concern. But, in Gold and Silver it says Professor Elm was the first Person to find out that Pikachu is an evolved Pokemon thus creating evolved basics.

 

[PokePop]

So you're telling me that all the crap i endured at battleroads and regional tournaments, even local leagues, over playing lookers as it turned out i was right to draw one card at a time?

No. The current ruling is still that a player has to announce how many cards they are drawing.
The ruling at Worlds has not yet been made official for all POP play.

 

[Cyrus]

No. The current ruling is still that a player has to announce how many cards they are drawing.
The ruling at Worlds has not yet been made official for all POP play.

^Which is proof enough of how badly inconsistent things with Japan are...

Yet another reminder that inconsistency with Japan SUCKS. Unfortunately, it's not something that can be easily fixed by non-Japanese judging staff, Team Compendium, or POP. It's primarily PCL's responsibility to make sure that their creation carries over well to the rest of the world, and with stuff like Downer Material v. Legends, as well as Looker's U.S. v. Looker's J.P., you can see that there have been a few big failures.

Aaaand there will be more of these in the future unless the suits (or the lab coats...take your pick) actually start caring.