Worldwide OP after 2 years. Part 2 tournaments

[Rainbowgym]

Tournaments there is a lot to say about them.

Keywords: structure, availability, organizers, players and rules.

After basic OP is realized, leagues and providing information about this game.
The next step is Tournaments.
Competition is appreciated by most people. High or Low level, it’s fun.
To ensure competition is fair, rules have to be made and followed.
There is no competition (comparing) if the rules are not equal.
The starting point for competition should be equal for each competitor.

So if you take tournaments as a serious part of a worldwide program, than the same rules should be followed by everyone who joins a competition. Same basics, same standards.
POP made rules for almost everything. Formats are lined out. Playingrules are made. Penalty guidelines etc.
While most players start at a league and learn about playing rules and formats overthere.
It’s important that any league leader and TO has access to those rules.
These rules can be found on the op-tcg.com website. No problem if your English is good enough.
But what about people not reading/speaking enough English?
For those their National OP provider should make local language documents.

Outside the USA, OP providers are responsible for ensuring tournaments are following those rules.
If I play a constructed modified tournament in Alaska it should be done the same as in Italy.
Modified = Modified if you don’t want to follow rules set up for modified, don’t enter the competition.

Is this so hard to realize?
I think POP should not make any concessions on their formats and playing rules.
But what about OP providers? Aren’t they bounded to the same set of rules?
They should be.
There are penalty rules for players who breach the rules, but what about TO’s or even OP providers?

OP providers are the representatives of POP in their country, they should be always following the program rules.
POP should take care that by making any rules, every OP provider is able to follow those rules.
What happens to a TO who is not following the tournament rules and is reported to POP.
This TO can become suspended as TO. What happens to a OP provider who is not following those rules…………..gets reported to POP………………….not much.


There is a tournament structure designed by POP.
There are normal tournaments and prereleases, and higher level tournaments such as CC’s, States, Regionals, Challenges and Worlds.

From country to country there is a difference in what higher level tournaments are available.
This is a choice of the OP provider, but there is so much difference worldwide.
While the one country has, CC’s, States, and Nationals. Others have only Nationals.
Some countries are not “big’ enough to have States or Regionals, but were is that based upon.
Residents? Players? Organizers? Budget?

The whole tournament structure falls or stand with……………. Setting up OP at the base.
And the base is………league play, providing information and advertising.
If you fail in that part of OP than each step higher on the OP ladder is doomed.
OP is a balance of players and organizers and available budget.
This can be caught in one phrase: interest in OP of the OP provider.
It’s stands and falls with the OP provider and nothing else.
OP providers who are really interesting in setting up OP, will try to find organizers.
They will support organizers to do tournaments/leagues.
And even if a league starts without a single player, they will come if you advertise, NO Doubt.
NO player is responsible for a failing OP, no volunteer is. It’s all in the OP providers hands.


Again it leads back to the OP provider, they are the ones who should motivate volunteers to organize.
How to motivate? Well to take care they can obtain materials to run tournaments.
To provide proper information. Award organizers.
There is no better way to get rid of your organizers than forget to thank them. I’m not talking about money or big things. Awarding can be done in different ways, but it starts with simply saying thank you.
Another solid way to get rid of volunteers is not listening to their feedback and consult them about obstacles and solve those.

Were would the USA OP be without volunteering TO’s? You tell me!
If POP didn’t let the “old fossils” in at the start 2003, were would OP in the USA be?
Were would POP USA be if they didn’t award their TO’s, PTO’s for their “work”?
It’s a snowball effect, you start with a limited but dedicate group, you award them, they spread the news and new people join the group.
What about the professor program, it’s not only there to gain knowledge, it’s also a marketing engine.
You work for OP as judge/LL, POP awards you for doing it.

As long as the POP program is running, there has been a reward for volunteers in the higher level tournaments.
Not always in a personal reward, but it starts with having the chance to give away league materials and through that gain players. That’s also a reward and works for the long term.
Next step if you have players you start organizing and get rewarded for doing it (player program). If you have fun in organizing you can become PTO and can even earn some money on it. If you volunteer as judge you are rewarded.

Worldwide OP is growing, due to all awards, volunteers and OP providers following the USA model.
But there are countries were there is still no grow, and almost no OP.

So what can be offered by POP or OP providers: Prereleases, CC’s, States, Regionals, Challenges and National.
In the USA POP offers all of this to their players. International you have to wait and see.
So do USA players really deserve more “seats” at worlds, because they have more players?
That they have much more ways to earn a seat is not the same as deserving more seats.

I compared States USA attendance with Nationals outside the USA and some countries are performing much better than some States.
I calculated how many players attending per million residents, and I was amazed.
I took States because of travel distance also has influence.
If you look at Regionals attendance, it’s to compare with larger countries.

Some numbers.
Oregon has related to State attendance the most players per million residents 30,8, followed by Idaho 27,1 – Nevada 25,9 and Kansas 25,2.

Texas 4,2 , Ohio 4,7 , New York 4,7 and California 4,7 are the ones on the bottom.

If I compare that with attendance at Nationals 2005 there are some very good performing countries.
Slovenia 34,5, Norway 30,4 , Denmark 19,4.
And at the bottom Germany 1,2 and Argentina 1,8.
When the coming weeks more Nationals will be completed there is more to compare.

But most amazing is to compare: attendance at States USA with Nationals Europe.
I took states/countries with about the same amount of residents.
Than I calculated total attendance.
And what came out. 539 people attending in Europe against 537 in the USA.
This way travelling distance is a bit equal overall.

I left regionals attendance out because of the travel distance.
Meaby it’s to compare with the upcoming Stadium Challenge in Austria.

So do USA players really deserve more “seats” at worlds, because they have more players?
I would say NO.

It’s even more out of balance if you keep in mind that there are Gym Challenges coming up were USA players can earn a trip+invite.
Some states have 2 or even 3 Gym Challenges.

I also did a quick search in the Modified Rankings, but that’s more complicated.
If you keep in mind that:
A lot non-english speaking players don’t have a clue how to set up such an account.
There are players who never have the change to enter a sanctioned tournament, because there aren’t any.
That kids under 13 are depending on their parents to set up an account, which take some patience I know out of experience.

But it’s still interesting.
10- total 196
10- USA - 135
10- 29 countries present in locator -61

11-14 total 619
11-14 USA - 362
11-14 29 countries present in locator - 257

15+ total 2831
15+ USA - 1152
15+ 29 countries present in locator – 1679

It’s shows the same line as the attendance numbers of States, Regionals, or any other tournament.
This game is NOT only played by kids of 10 and under.
This game is most of all played by 15+.
Even if every kid under age 13 has a My Pokemon account, it would NEVER EVER give as outcome that Pokemon is mostly played by kids under 10 years.

I can’t post this without adding a personal note.
In the Netherlands 4 people were suspended from OP because:
They wanted the playingrules, formats and structure to be followed as set up by POP/PUI.
They warned the LD not to create to much obstacles to join OP, this would lead to NO grow.
They told the LD time after time this is not a game only played by 10 and under.
They showed that with them involved many 10 and under could join OP.
They showed that without a single Euro/Promocard support they could maintain a playersbase.

That we were right from the start, did hurt some ego’s.
It’s hard to admit that some “old fossils” had more knowledge that the ones choosen by PUI.
But we never expected that healing hurt ego’s, came before professional business solutions.
WE did not disturb activities OP in our country.
Our OP provider did and still disturbs OP.
They had 2 years to set up OP and were covered in any way by PUI/POP.
It’s time to change direction.
It’s time to kick this OP provider out and start with another.
It’s time to listen to the old fossils, cooperate with them and let them do what other fossils did Worldwide --à Building up OP.

We talked with another distributor, showed them our plans for Pokemon.
And guess what, they even wanted to work with us WITHOUT PUI (official OP).
The were enthusiast about our plans and willing to find locations to set up unofficial clubs.
They asked how many tournaments we wanted, and if we were willing to teach and guide new locations.
They saw business opportunities even without a contract with PUI.

How come these people needed only 2 hours to see this and even promised their full support.
Because this company is really understands the power of OP.
We only have to call them and we are up and running in no time.
We didn’t use this offer, because we now the dirty practices of the current OP provider.
They blackmail, intimidate, and in case needed, bribe store owners and other companies, to get rid of competition.
Meaby in business this is common behaviour, but we are not willing to get involved in such low standards.
We don’t want people who are volunteering to build up any kind of OP, expose to such kind of practices.

We want honest and equal POP in our country.
Is PUI/POP going to wait another year and see this game die in our country?
POP intl has supported the current OP provider for almost 2 years, long enough to make up the bill and conclude it’s not working. IF other countries have a big grow, than ours should have that too.

At this moment there are still people willing to help building, but will they still be there over one more year? The only way OP is going to grow is use the basic US model and make Pokemon available for everyone who wants.
Get rid of personal preferences, and judge people on facts and not on rumors and lies.
PUI intl get around the table with us, listen for one time to our message. Nobody is going to be hurt by that, it can only clear up things.

Thanks for reading and please be free to discuss the attendance numbers and comparings.

 

[Stripes]

Wow I can see you took some time typing this up. I've read other posts you've made, but I haven't completely understood alot of them till now. Good luck with what your trying to accomplish, I hope everything works out.

 

[Rainbowgym]

When Worlds comes insight, there are always topics bumping up about price structures.
What made me do this, is the statement I see time after time " the USA deserves more prizes, because they have more players, better players etc".

What you get is not always what you deserve.
The USA gets a lot of trips, which is great.
But that's something else than deserving them.

Most of all I'm puzzled (right word?) if what we are stating as not serieus taken international "fossils", is becoming truth.
I was expecting a kind of international "catch up" at the moment OP providers would follow the USA model.
I was most of all focused on the UK, Norway, Germany and Italy.
UK and Norway are catching up as expected, Germany stays a bit behind but they will join, I have no doubt about that.
Italy is a bit disappointing, but they changed LD so if that new one follows the USA model we will see a grow in no time there to.
Denmark suprised me too, but after I found out who is involved there it's not a suprise (another old fossil).

The differences between countries will become more and more when time goes by, and for some it's going to be hard to catch up.
I'm very happy with the progress in the UK, Denmark and Norway.
It will only emphasize which model works ( LD's view, or USA model).

I'm not only complaining I try to hand out solutions/options. I'm trying to make things better for players in my country, I can't do much for Worldwide equality, but at least I try.

How can we become on speaking terms with PUI Intl., because that’s the only way to get real OP for our country. Speak things out, build plans and go for it.

 

[Michel]

Rainbowgym

I've maybe missed it, but I think there's something behind your post that is not clearly mentioned.

Of course POP Worldwide must be based on the US model, and what you describe in your 'League post' is very close to what we had with Wizards.
But we may never forget that USA and Europe (and other countries outside the USA) will never work the same way for a basic reason ... structure.

While US have only one 'office' (PUI), each other country has a moreless independant POP responsible called the LD.

I'm still convinced that, despite the efforts of Jarrod and other PUI's staff, only two (or maybe 3) POP representatives are necessary : POP USA - POP Europe and POP Asia/Latin America.

It's really easier and more efficient to coordinate POP Worldwide with 3 offices than with a lot of LD's who're doing what they want in their country.

One example ? We have now 1 Stadium in Europe. LD's have to run Stadiums (local people run international events ).
A lot of international events were run in the past, STSQ, Stadiums, Challenges, ... How ? Wizards Europe worked with the local distributors to run these events, but it was Wizards who did most of the organization, not the LD.
Of course, this is impossible to do if you're based in the USA and not in Europe.

I'm sure PUI has their own good reasons to choose the LD's structure, but I believe that what we see outside the USA is the consequence of that choice.

Just my 2 eurocent :wink:

 

[P_A]

Michel, I was going to say that PUI (or POP or whoever it may be) can't void a contract without reason, to set up your view of a 3 office set up, but recent events with the Gillettes in Ohio changed that. From what was said on this board, Margaret Gillette lost her PTO status without even being told what the reasoning behind it was. So NORMALLY, I would have said contracts with LD's would have to remain valid. Then again, if the LD can't show a valid reason why growth hasn't happened in their country, in my estimation, they should have their contracts revoked. That being the case, the Dutch LD probably has unjustly blamed all the current OP problems in that country on Lia and her "old fossils", and therefore can get away with having little or no growth. How long that situation will be allowed to continue is anyone's guess, but I assure you that everyone who has any contact with OP probably considers that situation as getting a little old. Something must be done. Something has to be talked out, and somethings got to give. Hopefully we're not too pig headed to see it.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I have to add something about the WotC period.
Our distributor was never involved in the organizing part of the larger events.
WotC worked with one of the "old fossils" and let them arrange staff and demo people, and not PSgames but another distributor was organizing.

The only thing PSgames did was selling boosters and precon decks in a stand at the location were these events happened.
They were not involved in the organisation. Not in Amsterdam (beurs van Berlage) not in Antwerp.
WotC granted them the OP provider status because they already were doing Magic for WotC.

Henna is involved since the very start and knows more than I do.
But in the past those same old fossils got their league materials direct from WotC Brussels because PSgames was not willing to provide them. This caused a bit of a riot but WotC demanded PSgames to follow the standard as set up by them.
Btw that riot was caused by another "old fossil" who recently restarted again organizing clubs and tournaments.
He is growing very fast and has already 3 locations running.
OF course unofficial, because PSgames has also a negative history with him.

Strange isn't it.
Not one but SIX adults convinced about, the wrong company having OP.
Six adult, with complete different lives and backgrounds, but all with the same passion: Pokemon.

But I am not interested in the past, I'm lookin forward.
There are things which can be repaired, but the longer it takes the deeper the scar.

 

[Glumanda]

I really like the idea of the continental offices. The distributors may distribute the product, the offices have OP and ensure a fair and equal system everywhere. For me it is some kind of "golden way" PUI could do.

If PUI do not choose the "golden way", they have to do something else, but there is something which must be done. They are two years in charge now and besides of some exceptions OP in Europe is not working to well. Nice that they are promising things the distributors are not keeping. They should force the distributors to do the tournaments series as intended. If the LD´s do not want to cooperate... well, there is always the "golden way".

 

[P_A]

The Golden way sounds good on paper, but in reality, I doubt there is a budget for it. From what I know, and that's certainly not much, there is only one employee for all international - and that's Jared Knack (hope I spelled your name right). To set up an office requires at least another person on staff - AND AN OFFICE! Setting up of an office is not cheap, even if it's in your own home, trust me I know. If it's not in your home, there's always the maintenance and running of a business including heat, hydro, cleaning, supplies, and fixing whatever equipment is deemed necessary. So from one person on payroll, to now at least 2, plus the upkeep of an office for each of the affected areas, there may be little or no new money available to make this happen. It's not to say it's not a possibility, but I think they would be wiser to spend that kind of money on fixing the gaping holes that are now present instead of deferring the problem until after these offices are set up. That's my opinion.

 

[Rainbowgym]

One of the points is:

Every provider is allowed to arrange OP as they like.
Calling it: arranged according their overview on the market.
Each country was trying to invent their own wheel (dutch proverb).

There was no wheel to invent, that wheel already existed. And the only thing needed was jump on the bike and go ahead.
Some innovations should be done, but in great lines I don't see any difference with how WotC's wheel turned.

Tell me what is the difference between OP under WotC and PUI?

Leagues - LL/LO register on a website, should be no problem.
LL registering players monthly, should be no problem
Providers hand over leaguematerials to LL, should be no problem.
Providers looking for new locations to start leagues, should be no problem.
Providers translating league instructions, should be no problem.
Tournaments – TO arranging them
TO sanctioning them
TO advertising them
Provider finding and coaching TO’s
Provider handing out Tournament/Format/any rules (local language)
Provider providing support for premier tournaments
Provider taking care rules are followed and correct deviations

And I can make that list much and much longer and the differences between WotC and PUI are not so big that they can’t be overcome. But what happens if a OP provider never was interested in the things called above. That they only ordered materials and provided them and leave the rest up to dedicated old fossils? Than there are problems.

Information from PUI to Providers about their OP program was not good the first year, but on the other hand. If you claim you did OP for Pokemon for years it didn’t need to much common use of brains, how to adjust the way of working. It’s a matter of asking the correct questions and cooperate.

OP providers who claimed they did OP for pokemon very well in the past, suddenly understood they would not get away with saying they do OP. Some of them already messed up in the WotC period, but got away with because they also are doing Magic.
Under PUI they have to perform themselves instead of driving on the fossils merits.
And for some of them, in their greed, to get that “golden OP contract” it took a while to realize they didn’t had the knowledge and even experience in hand to run OP for Pokemon.
The smarter providers, changed courses and adopted the US model, some others are still inventing their own wheel.

But most of all
Money – PUI’s model is build on invest money in OP like pricesupport, leaguematerials, staff.
And that hurts to providers who are used not to invest money in long term. Some of them were used to have no or less profit on support. But loosing money for OP?? Investing for long term, not knowing if it ever pays back, you must be kidding.

Players moved along with the “new” OP structure in no time.
So don’t tell me a professional OP provider is not able to.


I don’t think the “golden way” would give much relieve.
I think the “hard way” is better.
The “hard way” is contracts with OP providers with exactly the duties/performances/goals described they have to meet. Not meeting the requirements, no/end contract, no benefits. NEXT in line.
It looks like the current OP contracts have to much space to manoeuvre, which result in only performing the minimum requirements.
Also I noticed in the past that PUI is afraid that the current LD’s are not going to continue to sell product if PUI is going to put pressure on them to roll out the OP program.
They probably are not aware that there are more distributors in most countries, even little countries like ours have more distributors. Meaby smaller companies, but why staying with a large company because that one is “known”?
Any good salesman will recognize if a product/program will bring benefit.
And I’m convinced that smaller companies would even work harder for POP than the established ones.
Pokemon is a good product, the OP program is a very good marketing tool.
And it doesn’t need 2 years to get it op running, if you don’t have progress the first year you have benefit of the doubt. But no grow or even a fall down in OP after 2 years is a shame.
But for that sake you can always point towards some volunteers, who in their own time on their own expenses, without any help are having an unofficial OP environment which grows and does well.
You point at those volunteers and say, it’s them, because of them I don’t have official OP. Let’s punish them. (and at the same time “forget” that those volunteers offered help, which you declined).

Sorry but in some ways the ‘golden way” is not the solution.
It’s more about good contracts, and execute those contracts without personal feelings involved.

 

[Michel]

Rainbowgym

You certainly know that, in the past, Wizards had used the same LD system as we know now.
That system has failed, despite the fact that Wizards has also another game called MtG distributed by the same LD's, and Wizards offices have taken POP back to them.

After 2 years of POP with the LD system, we see that POP is far from the level it could (and would) be in most of the European countries.
There are only 3 ways of seeing it :
1 it's fine like that, don't change anything
2 keep that system but try to make it more 'hard' for the LD's
3 stop with that system and use a new one

We don't know what has been done by PUI about point 2, like we don't know the content of the contracts LD's have with PUI.
Anyway, I don't believe that putting more pressure on LD's will make these people change their minds about Pokemon and POP. You will enter in a more conflictual environment, but probably nothing more.


pro'

I do agree with you, it will be more expensive if there are 2 or 3 PUI offices instead of 1.

But we all know that POP is a marketing tool for Pokemon and that a good POP increases the sales. From that point of view, it's more an investment than an expense.

We also know that LD's are, one way or another, paid for running POP in their country. That contribution could be less important if most of POP is in the hands of a PUI office.

You talk about using the money on fixing the gaping holes that are now present instead of deferring the problem until after these offices are set up.
I suppose PUI has already done a lot of things to make things better outside US, but we see the results are quite poor.
We're already waiting for 2 years and we still not have a POP that can be compared with the US one and, more important than that, to what POP could be in our countries.
Do you really believe that investing some money in the system we have now will change something quicklier that simply changing the system ? I don't think so, and I even wonder if it will change anything at all.

When I look at POP in different European countries, I have the conviction that most of the LD's are not interested in working for POP. And I'm quite sure that most of the European LD's would be very happy to see POP taken, partly or completely, away from them, even if the financial terms of their contracts are modified.

 

[P_A]

...... Do you really believe that investing some money in the system we have now will change something quicklier that simply changing the system ? I don't think so, and I even wonder if it will change anything at all.

When I look at POP in different European countries, I have the conviction that most of the LD's are not interested in working for POP. And I'm quite sure that most of the European LD's would be very happy to see POP taken, partly or completely, away from them, even if the financial terms of their contracts are modified.

While I know that throwing money at a dead horse changes nothing, I don't think it's quite that dead yet. "Hope springs eternal" is an interesting old saying. I hope that investing more money will at least help things, though it may not be the total solution.

You may know these local distributors better than I do, so I'm sure you have some valid points. I just hope that these distributors are doing this for more than just money, or I guess they WOULDN'T care whether or not they worked for POP. If I worked at this only for money, I'm sure there are better ways to make a buck. I wouldn't sell them too short just yet. They may have gotten into this originally for their own reasons, but I'm sure there are more reasons than money to keep going. Why else would PS games keep going so bullheadedly? You can't tell me they make a ton of money at it with a failing OP. There's gotta be something more. I'm sure you and I wonder just what it is though. Personally I think if POP decided to take the LD from them to give to another company, it probably would be a good business decision, but my question is, .... What do you think the chances are that will happen? I don't think the chances are all that high. And just because I, .... and probably a lot of other people feel the same way about this, it means diddly. Who am I? Who are you? Who cares what we think? They are going to do what they feel is right for them regardless of any real world wisdom. So I'm not trying to say "grin and bear it" boys and girls. What I am trying to say is - just like an alcholic, they've got to see the problem for themselves, POP has got to want to be helped, or fixed. Until that day, I think all you can do is lessen the damage as best we can. Keep working as best we can. One day we may get lucky. Until that time, I'm willing to accept that more money may be a good bandaid for now, until surgery can be performed.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Why else would PS games keep going so bullheadedly?

One of the reasons - Personal disaffection, and not willing to admit they had the wrong view.
And because of that, blaming the persons who were right with their points of view.

And PSG is on the save side, they couldn't even meet our performances, so they tried to damage us personal in the most hard way they could, try to suspend us.
And it worked, PUI intl only listens to the LD (remember "we don't let our distributors fail'), and the LD asked them to suspend us and PUI did.

Sorry but in the Holland case it's all about personal disaffection.
And yes, there is nothing we can do about this situation, beside keep on trying to get attention for it.
I can only refer to the words of our LD at a meeting last month with a mediator.

We prefer to have no OP, instead of letting those old fossils helping

 

[P_A]

Kinda ironic eh, Lia. Some fossils turn into some pretty powerful pokemon.