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Author
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Topic: Drafting: Not as much skill as you would think.
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Psigh
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Member # 88583
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posted July 03, 2002 07:31 PM
I just finished reading the Legendary post about drafting. Now listen, I have not played in this format, but I don't have to to tell that it does not involve as much skill. Here are the logical arguements against it.
First there is additional luck in what cards are available to you. You have very litte control over what the other people draft, so you are stuck with the limited cards available. Now, people will say that you have to develope stratagies based on what cards are available, yet, if other people are doing the same, you are stuck with whatever you get. For example, what if you never really have any good cards avaible to you, or you don't have any cards that woul work well together avaible to you? That isn't you fault, it is because of what is in he booster packs. Also, if the opposite were true, you would get an unfair advantage. If something in the middle were true, well, then, it would have been luck causing it. Do you see what I am saying? I would like to hear counter arguements.
[ July 15, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Big Daddy Snorlax ]
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From: Austin Tx. | Registered: Jun 2002
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Satoshi_Of_Pojo
Member # 58975
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posted July 03, 2002 07:37 PM
Well, first I'd like to encourage you to try a Draft. The Professor Draft at the West Coast Stadium Challenge was a blast! ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
Anyway, onto your argument.
True, sometimes during the Draft you may be left with the bare bones of whatever is left from the previous two packs - mostly when you're the last pick on the line. But what about when you open the packs? That's first choice for you. So although you may have a few unfortunate "last pick," you'll also have a few "first picks" to even it out. ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
And yes, the contents of the packs does matter quite a bit. But, remember that the other players at your table are working with the same packs - whether they be good or bad. So in the end, I'd have to say the luck levels are pretty even all around the table, which makes skill more important. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
~Tash
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From: Elsewhere | Registered: Jan 2002
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Psigh
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Member # 88583
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posted July 03, 2002 07:41 PM
Well, just because everyone has the same hance of getting any card does not take any luck out of it:
Two people flipping a coin have the same chace of getting heads. Skill?
Also, everyone is not working with the same packs. Just because it is the same set does not mean they are the same. I know you know that, but it is misleading to say that... ..!
[ July 03, 2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Psigh ]
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From: Austin Tx. | Registered: Jun 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted July 03, 2002 08:23 PM
Wouldn't that be 60 picks (or did you mean specifically LC, where you would get that many)?
Anyway, I find it difficult to accept your arguement, psigh. All I can say is participate in a draft sometime. Then you'll turn around.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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SlimeyGrimey
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posted July 03, 2002 08:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PokePop:
[QB]
However, two people flipping 66 coins has very little luck involved.
QB]
Well it certainly doesn't have any skill involved!
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted July 03, 2002 09:12 PM
He meant that the individiual significance of each random event is diminished is diminished by the sheer number of events. Thus, if there were skill involved, it would show up. Of course any skill involved in coin flipping is also called cheating (so of course there's no skill).
Now, the skill in draft comes from knowing what to pick and then getting it. For example, in the CSC prof. draft I oppened up a pack with a S. Alakazam in it. Knowing that it least one person wanted it, I grabbed it. I could only see the top card in each player's pile, so I had to remember that.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Xeodus
Member # 58404
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posted July 03, 2002 09:21 PM
I completely disagree with the fact that drafting is "luck-based". When I first started playing draft, I wasn't the most skilled at this game. I drafted PERFECTLY in my first game. I believe it was with Base and Fossil... yeah, it was those too. I had something like, 3 Hitmonlee, 2 Electabuzz, the Machamp line, the Electrode line... Oh man, it was crazy.
... but I went 2-6 in the draft. I drafted better than ANYONE ELSE. I grabbed full lines, and great draw power (Got an oak, lots of bills, etc), and I went 2-6. I couldn't even beat decks with my straight-on weakness.
Drafting does require skill. If you can win a draft, like one of the SC drafts, that proves you've got skill, and you get respect from me.
It requires skill in three categories.
- Knowing what to take when you see it
- Knowing how your deck works, how to play it
- Counterdrafting others
If you can pull all of this off perfectly, you've got it down. But with the earlier example I mentioned, you can draft perfectly, and take a terrible record. It all depends on how skillful you actually are.
The other day, at a draft I ran, I saw a kid draft AMAZING LINES. Unlike things I had ever seen... he went 0-4. Luck of what you take doesn't matter. it's your skills of playing the game.
From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2002
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted July 03, 2002 11:04 PM
Now listen, I have not played in this format, but I don't have to to tell that it does not involve as much skill.
STOP RIGHT THERE. PLAY in several Draft tournaments, and then reasses your findings. This is a situation where street smarts outweigh book smarts.
[ July 03, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: nick15 ]
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From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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lance313
Member # 1891
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posted July 03, 2002 11:41 PM
Having RUN quite a few booster drafts (and a sealed play event), I see who is the most skilled. Regardless of the cards, the better drafters will come out on top. Consistently. If it were luck, that wouldn't be the case. And I can see people getting and doing better over time. Again, luck wouldn't account for that.
Do us a favor. Play in, say, 5 or 6 drafts. Then report back to us. If you still feel it is luck (unless you really suck, in which case you WILL say it is luck), nothing will be able to change your mind. But saying that BEFORE even trying that reminds me of my kid saying he won't eat something because he doesn't like it, even before he's ever tasted it. You know what, sometimes after he tries it, he likes it. So try it. You might like it. Your name isn'r Mikey, is it? ![[Evil Smirk]](../tcg/graemlins/Up_to.gif)
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Golduck
Member # 523
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posted July 04, 2002 01:47 AM
It's funny how the same thing happens over and over again. A person that hasn't played draft at all complains about the format. I just have to say the same thing AGAIN: try before saying anything. And try at least 2 or 3 tournaments. Then, if you still don't like it, we will listen to what you've got to say.
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted July 04, 2002 03:25 AM
Yep. You see, it is not as simple as it first appears. Let's say you get passed a Base Set 2 pack during a draft you're in, and find a Pidgeot and a Nidoran Male there. You are stunned. Why would all those other players have left you the Pidgeot? Do you take the rare card? Pidgeot would be a beast in a draft, except that the Stage 1 you need is ALSO a rare! So, even though the Pidgeot would be the better card by itself, as a skilled drafter, you realize it is essentially worthless to you in this instance. You take the Nidoran Male.
Now, this is a very simplistic example, and real situations often involve actual estimates of the odds of getting certain cards. You must think very quickly in a draft, and the real choices are sometimes excruciatingly tough!
There is a reason why Worlds features Draft formats (2 different ones): drafting is not nearly as easy as it sounds.
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Voltorb43
Member # 3493
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posted July 04, 2002 05:10 AM
Give it up Psigh. I tried to make the exact same logical, rational arguments here a while back and was nearly run out of town on a rail.
It ain't worth the hassle. Dissing draft around here is just spitting into the wind.
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ebArtemis410
Member # 380
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posted July 04, 2002 05:30 AM
Dude, draft works in Magic, so you'd have to give reasons why it DOESN'T work in Pokemon.
I really like draft. You play with cards you would never play with in Constructed. You're all playing from the same pool of cards since everyone's picking cards from every pack opened. And there's the whole thing with memorize a pack you open, and when it comes back, you know what colors are being played and what's being cut off from one direction.
Playing Limited is so much more different from Constructed. Who can place their Energy on the right Pokemon at the right time? Which Pokemon is better to take out that one. Just playing in a draft or two and all this make sense.
One thing I don't like is in nearly every set, Grass outnumbers all other colors. Even in the Wizards compiled set, Legendary Collection. I hope they do something about that in Expedition.
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted July 04, 2002 09:18 AM
- I just finished reading the Legendary post about drafting.
ok
- Now listen, I have not played in this format,
you should, its fun (esp Rochester)
- but I don't have to.....
no comment
- ..... to tell that it does not involve as much skill.
Ah! Got to disagree there. As much skill as what? Since you don't specify I'm going to assume that you are referring to constructed formats
- Here are the logical arguements against it.
- First there is additional luck in what cards are available to you.
This is true in part, you do not know what cards you will see when you open a new packet. But if you watch what is passed around you can try to hypothesise as to what the others are drafting. If you never get passed fire then you can be quite sure that there is a fire deck being built! In a draft you will get to see roughly half of all the cards that could be played. So there is an element of luck but you can control it to a degree.
In Rochester not only do you see every card that is available. You get to see exactly what everyone is drawing and in addition you know who your opponent is going to be! True, sometimes the available cards aren't too good, but that luck does get shared out when lots of packs are opened.
- You have very litte control over what the other people draft,
Not true! This is a key draft skill. Often you counter-draft ie you take a card because it will help your opponent rather than the card that best fits what you are currently building. If the deck you are building has a figthing weakness then you try to reduce the number of fighting cards that are available to your opponents without hurting the construction of your own deck. Its tricky to get this right, ie it takes skill.
- so you are stuck with the limited cards available.
No the trick is to try and stick the other players with limited choice. This is a skill you have to develop. And its NOT easy.
- Now, people will say that you have to develope stratagies based on what cards are available, yet, if other people are doing the same, you are stuck with whatever you get.
You do have to develop strategies as you go along, and you may have to be flexible too. These are additional skills that just aren't present in the standard 'gatr deck. If you are always getting stuck with bad cards then the other drafters are making a better job of the draft than you.
- For example, what if you never really have any good cards available to you, or you don't have any cards that would work well together available to you? That isn't you fault, it is because of what is in he booster packs.
very unlikely that in the course of a draft you will always get the bad cards. But tis true that there is an element of luck that can creep in here.
- Also, if the opposite were true, you would get an unfair advantage.
Yes if you are very lucky you may gain a small advantage.
- If something in the middle were true, well, then, it would have been luck causing it.
Actually your conclusion is wrong if something in the middle were true (and the central limit theorem in stats ensures that something in the middle is what will happen) The the luck has been evenly spread out.
- Do you see what I am saying? I would like to hear counter arguements.
Yes I know what you are saying but you haven't mentioned any of the additional skills that are required of a good drafter. These additional skills more than offset the small degree of luck that creeps into the draw of cards. (You are forgetting to re-normalise, the fraction f luck in a draft is less than that in constructed due to the presence of additional skill-sets)
Counter-drafting, deck building under pressure, memory of what the others are doing. Flexibility in your plans. There are a lot more ways in which skill is introduced into a draft than just opening 6 packs and trying to build a cohesive deck. Or worse just playing a net deck.
Pokemon will never be like chess, there will always be a degree of luck involved, its just that the better players are more able to take advantage of that luck without giving anything away. That to me is a definition of skill.
[ July 04, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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Strike
Member # 201
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posted July 04, 2002 11:22 AM
I must agree with what nearly everyone else is saying- Play draft before you jump to untrue conclusions, play both booster and rochester style. You do not know how much skill it takes to build a solid draft deck, and how hard it is to figure out the best card for the situation.
Also, everyone gets the same chance to get what they need.
Quote-"You have very litte control over what the other people draft, so you are stuck with the limited cards available." Half True and Half False there. You don't have much control over what others draft, Unless you decide to cripple their picks with the Counterdraft style, which must be used in moderation. Also, you are not always stuck with what other people just decide to throw at you, also get the chacne to get 1st,2nd, and 3rd picks as many times as the other people in your pod.
Luck may play a factor, but Skill weighs in much more heavily in the draft aspect.
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Rocket's Sandshrew
Member # 56166
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posted July 04, 2002 11:44 AM
I dunno if anybody mentioned it, but it also takes the ability to work under pressure. Especially in rochetster drafting. You have to know what the cards do, you won't have time to read them, and you don't get much time to think...a couple seconds really. So you have to:
Pick Cards for your Deck
Pick Cards you don't want in other people's decks
Pick Trainers to make your deck go over evo chain peices sometimes
...and do it all very, very quickly.
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From: Dancing on NG Gatr's Grave... | Registered: Jan 2002
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y2ace
Member # 451
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posted July 04, 2002 11:54 AM
You know I feel exactly the same way. And I have some other things I would like to say.
I have never given child birth but it looks like its a breeze to me, wow all i have to do is push the doctor and nurses to he rest.
Ive never had to raise a family but it sure looks easy have a kid turn the tv on and your done.(sadly this is what some parents ACTUALLY DO)
You know Ive never been shot but I dont think it hurts THAT much I mean come on Ive been hit in the face before thats gotta be the same thing.
You know Ive never operated fireworks before but how hard can it be stick the stuff in and light the fuse right?
Ive never had to change brake fluid on a car but how hard can it be? Look for the stuff that has it empty it out shake the bottle and pour it in who cares if there are bubbles in the brake line thats natural right?
You know Ive never used a pressure cooker before but how hard can it be? All you ahve to do is but the food in and when its ready just open it.
Man how hard can it be to jump out of a plane? Of course ive never done it but lets look at this logically, All i have to do is just pull a string and Im safe forget about backups line tangles and the possibility of pulling the wrong cord and falling to your death, how hard can it be? Logically of course.
![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
Do I even have to say anything more to make my point clear?
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Psigh
Member
Member # 88583
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posted July 04, 2002 11:54 AM
Listen up: I realize that that is does involve [b]different/b] skill (as Voltorb43 was saying in the other post, but he didn't talk about it eneough), but that skill is all in trying to nuetralize luck. In fact, Xoedus says it for me:
quote:
It requires skill in three categories.
Knowing what to take when you see it
Knowing how your deck works, how to play it
Counterdrafting others
All of that is siimply trying to nuetralize the luck!! There are two ways to test someones skill:
Let them make a deck with all of the cards available (not just ones randomly given too you), or give two people the same deck and see who wins.
[ July 06, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Psigh ]
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From: Austin Tx. | Registered: Jun 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted July 04, 2002 12:40 PM
Correction: You attempt to neutralize your bad luck while capitalizing on good luck, while at the same time interpeting the reactions and choices of other players.
[ July 04, 2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted July 05, 2002 06:13 AM
Psigh,
the additional skill levels are not used to just cancel out the added luck element.
Consider constructed. I'm going to apportion the contributions of skill luck and deck as follows.
Constructed PLAY-SKILL 20%, LUCK 10%, DECK 70%
So the SKILL to LUCK ratio in constructed is 2:1
(You can argue the numbers, but follow the argument...)
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DRAFT
DECK 0% You can't copy from the web!
LUCK 10% (same pesky play flips as Constructed)
NEW LUCK 5% as far as luck is concerned Focus Band and Baby Flips dominate. Grrrr
PLAY-SKILL 20%
SET-KNOWLEDGE ??%
DECK-CONSTRUCTION ??%
COUNTER-DRAFT ??%
MEMORY ??%
SPEED ??%
So what values to assign to all these additional skils that are required in a DRAFT?
Well my own view is that these additional skills are at the very least twice that of playing a net deck. So lets be pessimistic and say the new skills total an additonal 40%
For draft we now have
Draft SKILLS 60%, LUCK 15%, DECK 0%
Ooops 60+15 <> 100% Time to renormalise....
DRAFT SKILLS 80%, LUCK 20%
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There you are Psigh, I've proved your point ie that there is more luck in draft than constructed. Or have I? Well the Skill:Luck ratio in Constructed is 2:1 while for Draft it is 4:1 or higher!!
So my conclusion is that SKILL is more important than LUCK in Draft than Constructed.
Convinced? I hope so. That said the most important thing about drafting is that its FUN.
[ July 05, 2002, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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Magby Guru
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Member # 55228
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posted July 05, 2002 11:51 AM
Psigh, you are right about there being a lot of luck in draft. Luck of the PACK has a HUGE impact on what deck you will make. If someone opens up a rocket zapdos in their pack or a rocket mewtwo or even my favorite a rocket scyther will determine what colors youw ill play in the draft and will affect the entire tournament. That is a huge amount of luck, but hey its draft so you have to expect it.
Psigh has some good points here, but draft does take much much much more skill thna any other format IMO. Psigh i honestly think you should go out and draft, you would like it.
-MG
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From: falls Curch VA | Registered: Dec 2001
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RaindanceKing
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posted July 05, 2002 12:51 PM
You're right, Psigh. I've never drafted before (hopefully that will change with the upcoming World Championships ), but from what I've heard it seems that the luck would be from the packs, and the skill from exactly what you decide to put into your deck. I'd say that drafting ends up being about %50 luck and skill ownz the other half. I don't know where these people get ideas like "Drafting is pure skill"(which i've heard people say variations of that on here, by the way) . When its quite obviously not. Anyway, good post.
-RDK
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From: Cerulean City (AKA, Oregon) | Registered: Jul 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted July 05, 2002 01:29 PM
RK, I don't remember anyone here saying draft is devoid of luck. Additionally, you make a judgement without ever playing in a limited event. Ask a comedian which takes more skill: stand-up or improv? It is the same with Pokémon. You have to deal with a metagame created before your very eyes. Is there luck? Sure, but almost never will anyone get enough good cards to fully capitalize.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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kakkaroto7
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Member # 2439
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posted July 05, 2002 02:03 PM
I'd say the luck is more in the coin flips for draft.
I draft many cards that require coin flips for certain results. Dark Gengar was a BOMB that I was able to draft, as I was taking dark haunters and gastlys before hand anyway because they are good. I also drafted LC and got Haunters and Gastlys, which were pretty easy to draft, but only one other person was going for it because he got a Gengar. A good strategy other than imposing flips on your opponent just so they can do ANYTHING is to draft the basics of big bombs, especially when you see a Nidoking get passed around the table, you KNOW someone will go for nidorinos first, so you should draft some nidoran males. Drafting basics of your own is also a good idea, because often smart drafters won't take a gengar/haunter if there are few packs and he hasn't seen any gastlys. Fossil Gastly is awesome in draft as well as Haunter Mysterious fossils are also great "time walks" that can deck your opponent when combined with something such as haunter or other 50hp 20 for 1and-a-colored-energy that also gives a coin flip for a special condition (they also usually have 1 retreat cost, sometimes two). I really like drafting, I have only played it in Pokemon, but I'm sure Magic drafting is much harder when choosing picks.
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From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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EmperorTopazJosh
Member # 72195
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posted July 05, 2002 07:13 PM
Many people on this topic on the rochester or booster drafting. My personal favorite is the theme deck challenge. Sure, it's not as random as the other two, but let's look at it:
1. you usually get 1-2 good evolution lines.
2. the evolution lines are usually 3-1 or 4-2-1, good because you always get basics.
3. people have no way of countering you or seeing what you have.
sure, you get a few boosters, but the deck is the main point of it. Since everyone is playing theme decks, almost no skill is required. I remember at the CSC, I played Muk, fossil Golbat, koffing, and broken ground gym. So don't say no strategy is involved.
Even if you don't believe in the skill, draft because you can get a good amount of cards for the entry fee.
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There are some who lose, some who win, and some who just complain.-Me
Today thousands of lonely Topaz were calling...-End theme of bubble gum crisis.
From: Milton, WI | Registered: Mar 2002
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