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Author
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Topic: 15+ I know I'm not the only upset player.
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OnettNess
Member
Member # 578
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posted August 22, 2002 09:32 PM
I know a lot of you here are against any type of action that opposes WotC's decisions, but I also know I am not the only one who is extremely disappointed with the game right now.
For the 15+ player, there is almost no reason to stay in the game. If you're competitive, at least, and so many players are. If you're just the easy-going parent, I realize why you do not mind the Professor Program, but I do mind being told that I am wrong because YOU do not care.
Of you who are for the Professor Program, honestly, how many of you consider yourself good players? I know that sounds rude, but I want to be as blunt as possible so that I am understood. How many of you PokéParents Top 8'd at the STS? Not many. What I'm saying is- you didn't necessarily play the game to win an STS. You probably played because it was quiet, enjoyable game to play, and for a lot of you, maybe with your kids.
And this topic comes up in Pokémon. It comes up more than anything. It comes up more than people asking how metal energy works. It comes up more than people thinking Sneasel is too good. It is talked about constantly, and maybe that should say something. Something needs to be done. Too many people will quit because of the 15+ elimination or "transformation into the Professor Program" as someone would correct me if I didn't add.
This isn't Japan. If the game is more competitive in the United States, fight to see that we maintain our own view of the game, because it's more than a few who do wanna play competitively. I mean, if someone doesn't want to play competitively, they don't have to. But if someone wants to, why shoun't they be able to?
I am disappointed to know that there is going to be a lot of disagreeing replies to this post. I accept that, but will never be convinced what was done should stay, or what was done was right. All I can hope is that as it is reiterated, and re-explained, more people begin to at least see our side.
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-Jason Klaczynski (Ness)
From: Orland Park, IL, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted August 22, 2002 09:57 PM
Ness,
1st OFF no matter HOW many times I have disagreed with what you have said in the PAST... I have admired how you can take a stand and debate the issue. OK some workds crawled into this LATEST rant of yours on Pojo... BUT hey I HAVE rarely ever seen you REALLY lose it and have to dig deep into OUR cesspool of profanity...
1) If leagues continue WE will continue to have a YOUNG fan base. IF kids SEE people play, there will be FRESH victims, oops, I mean NEW players. If TO's hold tourneys to HAVE kids play, there will be kids intrigued with the game.
2) I truly truly truly believe that we lose 15+ to life NOT to the fact that there is no 15+ age division.
THOSE wonderful happy go lucky times ARE GONE. Unfortunately we must commiserate TOGETHER to that fact. Don't quote me, I don't know NOTHING but it keeps getting repeated from the MT's that THAT time has gone.
I hope not...
Will we lose players? Yes. BUT hopefully the friendships, experience keeps some around (plus the PROF program)
3) I know YOU HATE this one, but the prof program is young. I HAVE READ many valid observations about this program. I AM Not THE ONLY one reading them, the MT's are paying attention & they will implement what THEY can.
IN ADDITION, they are in the TCG business NO MATTER how screwed up WE think thier business model seems (outcasting 15+) they are IN THIS business to STAY in business.
I will keep beleiving MUCH is out of THEIR control, our closest allies stay in touch with us BUT... there is only so much that can be done.
3) I AM SICK and tired of division. Pokeparents vs US, revolutionaries vs clones, 15-18 vs 18+
DO you know THERE is more to life than winning a tourney (well I won one, finally, I DON'T CARE ANYMORE) I like BUILDING decks & playing them BUT I JUST DON'T HAVE THE LUCK needed to win a tourney. The one I just had a vibe and nothing could go wrong & I am realistic to know THAT may not occur again.
I have other things in my life that MAKE me happy and fill me with glee. I am sure MOST 'pokeparents' that you refer too have lived through the trials & tribulations of adolescence, college life, career and have THEIR priorities straight (I don't yet).
SO to categorize them as incompetent (you didn't), bad deck builders (you didn't), carefree tourney players (you didn't)
IS WRONG.
I find some healthy people who play pokemon (THO not all are, tho not all are kind tho not ALL can take a loss)
We've witnessed this before AT ALL AGE categories.
I hope you keep supporting the game. YOU HAVE much on your shoulders for HOW visible you have been in this community. Pojo & Ness will always in my mind go hand in hand.
But when the time comes to move on...
THERE will still be deck builders, there will still be archtype creators *coughcough*, satisfied and disatisfied customers.
PLEASE: No flaming, let us discuss this ISSUE in a mature manner.
My crystal ball says: CHANGE is inevitable.
[ August 22, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
*TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof*
+GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo
-=-=-=-=-=-
TheCompendium
Team Random
Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11
ipgeek21.com
SHUT UP & DO something about it
From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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Brian Six
Member
Member # 102420
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posted August 22, 2002 10:00 PM
I agree totally. I am 13 years old, over a year until I have to be a 'professor' and I am dreading that point in time.
IMO, Wizards and TPC are promoting this game as 'Kids only'. They didn't even want people to KNOW about the professor event at Worlds. They held it at approximately 9 PM both nights, and wouldn't let ANYONE inside the building past that point. I went back because I realized I had left my bookbag inside the arena while I was being shuffled out, and they wouldn't even let me in to get it. I actually had to SNEAK IN to the arena.
Why would they want this? Why would they tell guards not to let ANYONE in? Because they want Pokemon as a 14- game. The only role 15+ plays in the game is to bring in younger players.
How do you expect a game to survive if the core players aren't even the real players? What happens in 2 years, when ALL of the major event winners turn 15? You think we're gonna help you out by teaching young kids, after we get nothing? I got into and got GOOD at this game by mentors. People like Jim Ferrel namely who helped me because he wanted to. He didn't teach me because he was a 'Professor', because he was not a professor 3-4 years ago. He didn't do it because it was his duty. He did it because he wanted to help a friend. When I turn 15, I won't be explaining rules or teaching kids fundamentals about the game because it's my civic duty, I'll do it because I remember what it was like for a guy to take time to help me along.
The Professor Program is a total fraud. Instituting it has done nothing to make the game better. Now, you don't even get a real format to play the game with. Instead, by doing the same things you did BEFORE the PRofessor Program was instituted, you get a cool logo by your Wizpog name, a special name tag, and you get no real major tournaments. Wizards this way gets off the hook of responsibility of TPC wanting the 15+ banned. They act like they did something, yet nothing has changed.
Here's my idea. Make two age visions for challenge series. The 14- or 10- division and the Open division. Give trips to each of them like you gave trips to 14- and 10- this year. Younger players WILL step up to the challenge. If that happened, it would make the game like a game SHOULD be. My friends Jason and Matt Moss would be content because they have their main tournament back, and I would be content because I would play in the Open division, and compete against my friends and mentors in major events, where it counts.
Of course, these are my speculations, and only speculations. I just know that SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE if Wizards wants the game to do at all like M:TG does. And, if the game wants to survive, it needs to be like M:TG. The correct formula ALWAYS works twice.
~Brian Six
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Designer of the 10- World Champion Pokemon deck
Hopefully I'll have some MTG accomplishments soon...until then, I'll have to stick with Champion Chicago CSC 11-14... :P
Registered: Aug 2002
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Oo-Prof esPy-oO
Member # 93846
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posted August 22, 2002 10:00 PM
Im on your side Ness...
I know Im a horrible player, yet I know very many good players somehow. I never T8, I tell people im in it for fun, but not anymore. WoTC is getting cheap on us. I quit back at base2 when everyone else did, the thing that brought me back was the ECSTS 2001 which EVERYONE who played got 8 PACKS(COMPARED TO HOW SOME PEOPLE GOT NONE NOW-A-DAYS). So what if they dont have countless players like M:TG! WE still have good players here! Jason, Brooks, Mossy, and so many more are still here from the early days.
Well, back on topic here...
Anymore it seems like TPC is ruining it for us. They are trying to recreate the way Japan is playing over here. There is little or NO recognition OR support for the professor program.
as long as TPC holds the license, it is inevetible. Thats where my theory ends.
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"734m 1337 kr3w" -Coming Soon
I LIKE CHZ!
"Man Gustas, you really are 2 1337 4 M3!" -eBrooks
Current Deck(MMF) =
-Blissey Sprout Tower 0-193... I dont know why it loses...i get blissey and sprout tower every time...CHARGED! ;/
From: PA | Registered: Jul 2002
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OnettNess
Member
Member # 578
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posted August 22, 2002 10:05 PM
IP, I want you to realize there are even professors who can't stand the program. And a lot of them. They just signed up because they were told it's all they have.
There are a lot of people who are willing to fight for this. I'm certainly one of them.
Also, IP- it's as if you think it's okay that people will quit. A ridiculous amount of people have quit and will continue to quit. That is NOT okay- not in any card game. You can never convince me it is good to lose players. We have to gain something worth more than hundreds of money-spending, happy players? What are we gaining!?
[ August 22, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: OnettNess ]
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-Jason Klaczynski (Ness)
From: Orland Park, IL, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted August 22, 2002 10:13 PM
DUH,
I LOVE how US clones NEVER have a BEEF with the program. Really? We don't?
No one forced them, They made the choice YET they're are unhappy with the choice.
Such is life.
I HATE the word fight. Fight? I think it is SOME of this that HAS not pushed the movement any farther.
GO ahead. Go on WITH this movement I just ask that YOU NOT ALIENATE your closest allies, YOUR elder allies, YOUR allies that are perceived to be AGAINST your movement.
I KNOW NO 15+ player Prof or not WHO WOULD NOT want the 15+ division back.
OR that realizes that the PROF program could use some improvements.
BUT In what manner will this be accomplished? Will it leave a trail of blood & dead bodies? Or a trail of Sweat and tears?
IS this post to DEBATE or to CALL in the clones on both sides AND NOT arrive at any agreement?
If so, I AM SICK and tired of ALL
been there, done that
* PS DP, I know you... have you discussed this with a mod? I'll be emailing you...
[ August 22, 2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
*TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof*
+GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo
-=-=-=-=-=-
TheCompendium
Team Random
Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11
ipgeek21.com
SHUT UP & DO something about it
From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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OnettNess
Member
Member # 578
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posted August 22, 2002 10:27 PM
This isn't a pointless argument. Something needs to be done.
I will not buy cards if things do not change. And people who do strongly believe things need to change will do the same- especially as they approach their 15th birthday.
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-Jason Klaczynski (Ness)
From: Orland Park, IL, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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Riptider88
Member
Member # 81055
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posted August 22, 2002 10:39 PM
I am one of those people too.
I've been playing pokemon since it first came out and if the professor program stays how it is than im quitting and going to magic. Thats what wizards wants right? Well if they dont make any improvements in the "PROFESSOR" department than thats exactly what there going to get. Im 14 years old and I have not yet been effected. If I was 15 I think I wouldnt be playing pokemon. Are they trying to KILL the game? Because thats what they are doing. Parents are were the money is. NOT the kids. Think of it LOGICLY the serious players ARNT parents as Jason said. They are the ones that are going to make Wizards the most money because they buy MULTIPLE boxes of sets to get the good cards to play with. The SERIOUS players are were the money is. Wizards KNOWS this but are AFRAID to stand up to the Japanese. They know this from magic. Magic is a WIZARDS game. I understand since wizards OWNS magic that pokemon will NEVER be like or maybe even CLOSE to what magic is. I understand this. But you've done it before and you can do it again wizards. BRING BACK 15 +!!!!!!! ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
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"There is no spoon"
1st ever WORLD CHAMP
2nd place WCSTS
T-8 ECSTS
3-4 Central Stadium challange
2 MI QTs won
~Dylan Austin
"Michigan=0wnage"
"You=Done"
From: Ann Arbor | Registered: May 2002
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FujiMon
Member
Member # 102429
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posted August 22, 2002 10:39 PM
Hello Hello Hello ;x
Kinda new to this board in particular, but as i was scrolling threw the posts, i came apon this. This one topic convinced me to register. Why: Because I think it REALLY applys to my situeation at the momment. I'm a 14 year old at the current momment, and I will be 15 in a few short months (November). Am I looking forward to the switch over to professor program: Yes AND No. Yes in the fact that the major tourneys will be in Standerd, or as DMTM consistantly corrects me,"Unlimited". This is the one best thing about this WHOLE situeation, I DISPISE MF (my personal name, "Mega Flips"), and MMF, (My personal name, "MORE mega flips". I hate em`. I started playing this game for a few reasons, and none of them included good luck. I can flip a coin 10 times, and guarentee that it will land tails at least 7 times. Anyway, getting a little off subject here, on the bad side of it, you can no longer win as many free trips in the 15+ professor program, and to me, thats kind of like a jip. Who do you think PAYS for those cards that the 14 and under devision play with? US. The 15+ devision. and if the parents decide to play the game with their son/daughter, their getting MAJOR ripped. In my opinion, the fields should be level. Professor program should go to the younger ages. and the free trips and bigger prizes should go to the older players. Ive been playing this game for roughly 3 years now, and have found that it has been turning into a flipping contest, where the luckiest player wins. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Ness is 100% correct.
-Fuji
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Scyther Rules ;x
AIM - FujiMonii
From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Aug 2002
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted August 22, 2002 10:46 PM
See ya'
nice knowing ya'
You'll be OFF to college
You'll get married
You'll have KIDS (a FUTURE pokemonParent ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif) )
Brokaw, Gerhardt, IQ, Ness, etc...
Never did answer my question: Are you recruiting or CREATING MORE DIVIDING LINES?
*cause I've had it WITH the SIDE-taking!!!
We all make our choices. I finally read the chat, maybe I'll be seeing you at a DBZ regional? MAgic? I'll never touch it.
MY CHALLENGE: to all those NESS is 100%, WHAT WILL YOU DO ABOUT IT? A positive/productive manner? Cause we've been AGREEING ABOUT this for 2 yrs? and so far IT caused friction, HATE, and SLANDER and...
WHy lookie here: NOTHING has gotten done.
I would say there is a PROF program BUT THAT is another post.
* I can just imagine the revolution, I have to check it too CAUSE their solutions will be creative ![[Roll Eyes]](../tcg/rolleyes.gif) or a laugh*
[ August 22, 2002, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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Drafts bring out the BEST of the WORST cards in Pokemon
*TC Member/WizpogMOD_Squad/Master_Prof*
+GodFather to an Angel:RIP-Paloma Geronimo
-=-=-=-=-=-
TheCompendium
Team Random
Proud bro of SSJ3DVP11
ipgeek21.com
SHUT UP & DO something about it
From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted August 22, 2002 10:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OnettNess:
This isn't Japan. If the game is more competitive in the United States, fight to see that we maintain our own view of the game, because it's more than a few who do wanna play competitively. I mean, if someone doesn't want to play competitively, they don't have to. But if someone wants to, why shoun't they be able to?
Because, as the MT's said in today's chat, that isn't what the owners of the game WANT. It isn't WotC's game; it isn't, ultimately, WotC's decision to make.
The MTs can talk themselves blue in the face, but the ultimate decision isn't theirs. And if the vision TPC has for THEIR game is for it to remain something for only children under 14 to play "competitively"...well, then those are the limitations WotC has on them when it comes to planning Gym Challenges, Stadium Challenges, the Professor Program, and Worlds.
It's business; it may not make sense to you, nor to anyone else not privy to all the inside information. To put it bluntly: as long as WotC is the licensee and wishes to remain the licensee, when TPC says "jump" the correct answer from WotC will be "how high?".
They can make suggestions, which I'm sure they have; they can make recommendations, which I'm sure they have. But ultimately, it is not their decision...and even if they don't completely agree with that decision, they will have to work within those limitations put on them. That's part of business, too.
You may not like it, but that is the fact of the matter here. If TPC doesn't want to have a competitive division for 15+, then it won't happen...no matter how much you want it, no matter how much you say it sucks, no matter how much you say this isn't Japan, no matter how many of you "high ranked" players say you're going to leave.
The game will go on without you, and there will be new players to take your place at the top of the hill, believe it or not. I know you'd all like to think that you're so irreplacable that if you quit, the game will die. It won't.
As long as there are kids playing the game and 15+ willing to act as Gym Leaders, Tournament Organizers, Judges, Professors, and Master Professors...the game will go on. Not, perhaps, in the way you'd like it to, with prizes and competition on the scale of Magic, but it will go on...and very nicely, I predict.
So this is the choice you have: stay or go. Stay, and be a professor; stay, and be satisfied with playing in the open events which have no age restrictions. Or if you're not satisfied with that, then go; play another game which offers the level of competition and recognition you crave. But rants and attacking the adult members of this community who have been making valid points all along has not, and will not get the age division and prizes you want.
IMHO the complaints and slander and attacks against other community members that have gone on recently in the effort to make your points probably hurt your cause, and badly. Remember the community member who was working on a proposal to make a case for a 15-18 age group? How was he treated by people in this very age group he was working to help, and why did he stop work on that proposal?
There are consequences to every action. "No rules" never means "no consequences" or "no responsibility." I have been told that those involved consider what was done to this member a "joke", and "just having fun". But if the consequence to your action is that someone who was actively working as an advocate for you decides to quit that work...you only have yourselves to blame. Do not dare to say that HE hurt the majority of your age group by not continuing his work: YOU hurt your own group by alienating that person with your own actions. Consequences; for every action, there is a reaction...and responsibility for that action.
Good luck in whatever you decide; I will remain, a proud member of the Professor Program, eager to see how the program will grow and improve in the future.
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted August 22, 2002 11:22 PM
[temporarily removes his Moderator badge for the duration of this debate]
This isn't Japan. If the game is more competitive in the United States, fight to see that we maintain our own view of the game, because it's more than a few who do wanna play competitively. I mean, if someone doesn't want to play competitively, they don't have to. But if someone wants to, why shoun't they be able to?
I can tell you one thing, Ness. Well two things.
One, I don't think there is a single 15+ soul at this forum who needs convincing on this topic. I doubt there's 15+ players alive who would NOT want to see a competitive 15+ tournament like in the past. And I'm sure even those who don't like to "play to win" can agree to an extent as well.
Two, you're frankly aiming your argument at the wrong people. Wizards is probably the LAST group of people who needs to know any of this. .... If you want to make a stand against this whole "anti-15+ players" topic, take it to TPC (SERIOUSLY, I mean anything to help the situation is OK by me!). As far as I'm aware, TPC has got Wizards in such a tight grip that Wizards is in very little position to dictate what can and can't be done for the game and its players. Which makes little sense since the TPC has almost NO presence in North America and Europe to even begin making decisions for those regions.
This isn't Japan. It's so true it's sad. Apparently TPC assumes that player behaviors are the same between the two/three regions (Japan, North America, & Europe) and their decisions are based upon that. They THINK that they can make decisions for regions that they don't exactly control that that people will be all smiles and giggles about those decisions. .... Even more troublesome is how TPC is the REAL ones behind all the anti-15+ decisions that Wizards' "makes".
More importantly, I can only assume the Professor Program was even thought up in the first place as the ONLY method to create a competitive format for 15+ while keeping in line with TPC's restrictions. I can't blame Wizards for anything.... they're doing what they can to keep everyone happen (which includes conflicting needs between 15+ players and TPC).
It's as if TPC is making the game for North America and Europe, and Wizards is nothing short of their puppet. I don't like it any more than you. But what the smeg can any of us do about it?
Bickering about it between ourselves won't help. WE already know what WE want out of this game (and what WE are willing to do FOR this game). Posting about it on Pojo or WizPOG will only bring the regular "WE KNOW ALREADY!" type replies. I know I want 15+ tournaments. You know you want it. Hans from Germany knows he wants it... what's the POINT?!
Taking it up with Wizards won't do much either. I doubt that they WILLINGLY choose to keep the 15+ players "down". And I'm pretty sure yammering on about this very thing would probably result in a "WE KNOW ALREADY!" type response as well. They're players as much as we are. I can only assume that they have an even greater (private) resentment towards TPC, because who knows what sort of administrative Wizards business got canned by TPC's license "restrictions". .... Not that I actually know of any of them. ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
The only people we need to PROVE anything to is TPC, the ones who think that 15+ players are the death of them.
And what's the best way? Uhm.... I guess to show that 15+ players in Pokémon aren't what they expected. And how do you do it? By making us look good and HONORABLE? And how do that? The Professor Program perhaps?
If you have any other good ideas to bring 15+ players into the right light for TPC to show we're more than they expected, I (and I'm pretty sure Wizards) am are ALL EARS.
I'm not trying to disagree with you, Ness. I for one would probably one of the loudest mouths to get 15+ competition back into this game. I'm only trying to point out that Wizards is hardly the "enemy" in any of this. Wizards and the MT's are doing what they can considering that TPC has shoved them into a tight little concrete box with very little breathing room. The Professor Program (which is much better than nothing) is the best chance any 15+ player has to play competitively, outside of unsanctioned events.
Again, if you can think of any plan to help 15+ players that TPC won't axe, everyone would be more than anxious to support it. In the mean time, the Professor Program is the best bet anyone has.
...
15+ I know I'm not the only upset player.
I'm upset as much as you are. Just not at Wizards, but at TPC's illogic and stubbornness to let Wizards just be free. I mean the DCI runs Pokémon tournaments outside of Japan, I wonder why Wizards isn't allow to run things to the best of the games interest?
More to the point, TPC AS A COMPANY should realize by now that a profitable game is one where the players are HAPPY. I'm almost POSITIVE if Wizards was given the control they need to promote this game PROPERLY for the rest of the world, then this game could grow to no end. ....And yet apparently, TPC doesn't realize that their decisions are actually hurting this game. I can tell, there aren't as many happy players out there as there SHOULD be.
[ August 22, 2002, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: nick15 ]
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I am Nick15. And you are you. Isn't that cool?
FakeCard.com - Pokémon TCG Fake Cards galore. Neopets TCG fake cards coming soon.....
From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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StoneyTE
Member
Member # 54408
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posted August 22, 2002 11:24 PM
quote:
3) I know YOU HATE this one, but the prof program is young. I HAVE READ many valid observations about this program. I AM Not THE ONLY one reading them, the MT's are paying attention & they will implement what THEY can.
First, Ipgeek, though I quoted you, this isnt pointed at you especially
I think IMHO that the program being young has VERY little to do with the Program being bad.
I mean, Wotc could make GREAT tourneys before, now with a NEW(=improved, also its shouldn't be renewed, right)program, the results in quality of tourneys and quantity of prizes and player base are LESS than before?
IMHO that IS mind-boggling.
btw, Ness, I am also pessimistic.
Like my dad says: "a pessimist is an optimist with experience" I hope, that someday, we can be optimistic again.
From: None | Registered: Dec 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted August 22, 2002 11:35 PM
I mean, Wotc could make GREAT tourneys before, now with a NEW(=improved, also its shouldn't be renewed, right)program, the results in quality of tourneys and quantity of prizes and player base are LESS than before?
Apparently in the past, TPC (or Media Factory, at the time) didn't have a problem with 15+ players at all. Which is why there were any number of 15+ tournaments at Pokémon Events. But at some point, TPC decided that 15+ "hurt" the game and wanted Wizards to axe the age group from the game entirely. I can't even imagine the sort of rebuttal Wizards game TPC to reconsider.
More importanly, I DOUBT 100% that Wizards would have caved in with a decision like that. The evidence that they didn't is out there (the Professor Program, how 15+ tournaments were kept in at the WCSTS 2001, etc).... you just have to look for it.
All in all though, I'm pretty sure that Wizards didn't WILLINGLY decide to create all these 15+ restrictions.
TPC may have said "jump" with regards to 15+.... but I doubt Wizards at first said "how high" on the same subject. Maybe "how high" with a hint of remorse and annoyance. Or maybe even (on a long shot) "What the heck are you taking about?!"
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Pessimest? You're looking at one. At least my pessimism can allow me to see what could go wrong, and know that to fight for to keep it from going that way.
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THe moral? ...
WIZARDS IS NOT TRYING TO KILL THE GAME! The Pokémon TCG overall makes them (and TPC/Nintendo) MONEY. Although TPC seems to be totally oblivious to this, Wizards isn't... and why would Wizards want to kill the game off if it makes them money?! Highly illogical.
[ August 22, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: nick15 ]
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I am Nick15. And you are you. Isn't that cool?
FakeCard.com - Pokémon TCG Fake Cards galore. Neopets TCG fake cards coming soon.....
From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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KrisAlvarez
Member # 29281
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posted August 22, 2002 11:53 PM
I also agree with Jason on this. I remember the first time I played Pokemon. My friends brought the game over my house and since I didn't have cards that day, we played poker for commons. I had so much fun and loved the game, that the next day, I went to my local comic shop and bought so many Base Set packs and theme decks. Then time went by, and new sets came out. I continued to play and buy Pokemon because it was so much FUN. The East Coast STS came up, and I was so excited to play in the 11-14. I didn't do do great, but just being there and meeting people and playing Pokemon was FUN. The same thing goes for the 2nd ECSTS. The excitement of playing in a large scale tournament like the STSs was cool and exciting. Then I turned 15...The WCSTS was coming up, and I was too old for the QTs. I missed out on a chance of going there because of my age. The next year, the Professor Program came up, and naturally I signed up because I was 15. The East Coast Stadium Challenge was fun, but it was no STS. I had to wait a while before the Professor event started. Sure, they were giving a trip, but it was only to judge at Worlds (for 8 hours I may add). Then Worlds came up, and I went. After the experience, I didn't get to compete in a competitive tournament like the other age groups did. Sure I played in side events and the Professor tournament, but that was no Championship or large scale tournament like the STSs. Enough with my life history...my point is we 15+ need back what we had. The game used to be fun, but it's falling downhill. I would like to be able to go to a QT, GC or SC and compete with fellow 15+ players to have a chance to play in a large scale tournament not involving Professors. WotC made the Professor Tournament at Worlds Unlimited to make up 15+ happy since we requested it so much. It didn't make me happy. I mean, I played in the Unlimited side event, it was basically the same. I would like to see a change in the game. A change that will satisfy all players and even bring new people to it. I mean, we're at a point where 14- players FEAR to turn 15 because they won't be able to play the game how they used to. Pokemon's a fun game, and I've had so much fun with it...but somethings need to be changed, or else it won't be fun anymore.
[ August 23, 2002, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: KrisAlvarez ]
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AIM: KrisAlvarez7
E-mail: [email protected]
From: Haledon, NJ, US | Registered: Jun 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted August 23, 2002 12:07 AM
[watching over this topic like a hawk]
KrisAlvarez:
my point is we 15+ need back what we had. The game used to be fun, but it's falling downhill.
Hey, we ALL want it back. But if you need to convince SOMEONE, talk to TPC about it. Although kudos for you to add support in this post. (NO sarcasm intended!)
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From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted August 23, 2002 02:02 AM
Ness, I do agree with your position. (Not all of the points you make though )
1) Its not WotC's decision to make.
2) Oldies like me can play, ask at league if I'm difficult to beat , but you are right in that many of us are not driven by competition. We get enough of that in other parts of life.
3)Removal of 15+? see 1) above.
4)This isn't Japan. True, but see 1) above.
5)This is an old battle that was lost. See 1) above. But one battle lost does not mean its time to quit, it means its time to direct our efforts towards a new field of play. The growth of the Prof Programme perhaps.
6)Disagreeing replies? Am I one too? I'd like to see 15+ back but see 1) above.
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However half a pie is better than no pie at all.
I never did get to play in the days of a whole pie, so now I look forward to my chance at half a pie.
[ August 23, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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OnettNess
Member
Member # 578
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posted August 23, 2002 05:30 AM
If you tell me Wizards has no say in the matter you're simply lying.
If they want some sales back, they should return 15+ to the game. I couldn't be convinced that removing them was the right decision to make money NOR to keep people happy.
I don't care what the problem is with returning 15+; there are too many upset players, and that is always going to be the number one problem.
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-Jason Klaczynski (Ness)
From: Orland Park, IL, US | Registered: Feb 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted August 23, 2002 05:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by OnettNess:
If you tell me Wizards has no say in the matter you're simply lying.
I'm not saying they have no say in the matter. But all the evidence is that TPC has the FINAL say.
If they want some sales back, they should return 15+ to the game. I couldn't be convinced that removing them was the right decision to make money NOR to keep people happy.
No one is trying to convince you that the loss of 15+ was/is/or will be good for the game. If you could have a poll I doubt if there would be even one decenting vote, unless TPC is on the boards somewhere
I don't care what the problem is with returning 15+; there are too many upset players, and that is always going to be the number one problem.
I can be confident that WotC/Hasbros Number One Problem is very unlikely to be anything to do with 15+ organised play. Ness you are a highly respected player and contributor to the game, moreso than I am ever likely to be. Nonetheless the best advice I can give you is not to try and win battles that are already lost.
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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Raikou1234
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Member # 3003
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posted August 23, 2002 06:02 AM
I agree with Ness a little bit... All though, 15+ is nothing like it was, they have team still, which is at least a little good, and I think MTM will try to make the professor program better... Who knows, maybe they'll make Professor Program QT's or something.....
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Team Format Winner at Origins with SuperSpaceGuy!
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From: Somewhere | Registered: Mar 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted August 23, 2002 06:09 AM
I made a reply to Ness's rant which will hopefully appear on Pojo today.
In any case, my general opinion on the matter is that if you can't change the system, work within it. If you don't like the program the way it is now, be a part of it and try to give what you can (Wherever your talents may be) to try to get what you want, because if you competitive folks don't get into the program, I guarantee it will become a club of judges. Don't make this a self-fulfilling prophecy.
As for competitiveness, I don't know. It is supposed to be a fun game, but at the same time, I expect my opponents to do everything that they are able to and everything they are allowed to to stop me from winning. Hopefully there is room for both.
[ August 23, 2002, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted August 23, 2002 06:10 AM
Early yesterday morning, when I read your rant at Pojo, I immediatey sent in a rebuttal. Here is an excerpt:
Would I rather play than judge? YES. I play often. I run two leagues and playtest online over apprentice whenever I can. What really irks me is your characterization of the older Professors: "They're maybe a parent, but no offense, they are probably just a bad player, whether they realize it or not." Excuse me? I can think of quite a few unfair generalizations about YOUR age group to throw back in your face, but I won't stoop to your petty level.
I make no claim to greatness as a player, but I am at least decent. Ask many of your friends, who I have played against online: I think they'll back me up here.
You say: "When you play a game you like for 4 years, you get pretty attached to it." I totally agree. I am hooked, as a PLAYER, and I am in it to stay. You and I disagree as to where the problems with the 15+ originate, and how they should be addressed. Your own words reveal that you either do not really understand the situation, or you are deliberately confusing it:
"We 'ruin the image' with our competitive play. TPC wants WotC to project the game as a game for young kids. I'm sorry, but this isn't Japan. We play the game differently. It may be more competitive in the U.S., and if it is, oh well."
It is clear that you know that TPC owns Pokémon. It is also clear that you understand that WotC produces and administers the game in the US under a license from TPC. The terms of that license are secret, and that secrecy is imposed by TPC. In fact, TPC has WotC on a very tight leash. Wizards essentially can not do ANYTHING without gaining prior approval from Japan. This of course includes whether or not there is a 15+ division.
And guess what? The approach taken by many in the 15-18 age bracket is counterproductive. No amount of angry truth-twisting rhetoric calling for a revolution will have any positive effect on TPC's view of the situation, EVER.
You gave me 4 choices, and I suppose I'll have to take: "4) I understand Pokemon is at an awful point, and agree something should be done."
I too want a competitive 15+ division back, so I can play! It is TPC that needs to be convinced. The MTs at Wizards have been arguing for a 15+ division all along... at least until recently. But, even the patience of the MT's has its limits. Look at what you are doing! All of your strident negativism and loud complaining serves one purpose only: to keep YOU up on your soapbox. I have yet to hear you make one positive suggestion as to how TPC might be persuaded to allow what you and I both want!
This problem actually has a very simple explanation, Ness. TPC is a Japanese corporation, and thus it shares in the worldview of the Japanese culture. I am told that in Japan, when children reach the age of 15, they are expected to leave behind childish pursuits and become VERY serious about reaching career goals. To the Japanese mindset, 15-18-yr.-olds have no business playing games at all.
Here in the US, that age is reached later, if at all. Our culture sees no problem with kids 15-18 or even adults playing games.
What you are demanding from WotC is that they either single-handedly change Japanese culture or abrogate the licensing agreement. Neither option is in any way realistic. You are a great player, and I acknowledge that, but you'd make a lousy diplomat.
I'm sorry Ness, but the trite saying is true: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." 
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
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From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Khapoera
Member
Member # 3449
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posted August 23, 2002 06:53 AM
Nick:
You KEEP on REFERRING to contacting TPC about the problems with this game...I find that this would be rather hard to accomplish. What's their email address? [email protected]? I mean, C'MON!
We can't ask Wizards to forward anything to TPC, because we know that they'll receive hundreds of letters/emails once we know that TPC can be contactable (word?).
Anyway, I just wanted to say one thing before I left.
TPC is a company that is obviously NOT listening to the customers (mostly 15+) of the game. We are NOT the ones who need to be adapting to these changes that were so elegantly provided by TPC. THEY [TPC] are the ones who need to REALIZE that this game needs major changing, BUT IN A POSITIVE WAY SO EVERYONE IS HAPPY. Since they obviously have no idea on what "competition is" due to the very few amounts of events in Japan, who are they to tell us that 15+ should be eliminated from the base of all future events? Also, since they don't like competition, why not just get rid of all events, huh? 11-14 is the next age division that has the most competition. How about just make this game for 10- kids only? That's what the game was designed for anyway. We'll just sit by and watch all the little kids play.
Japan is JUST like America, THAT we know. ![[Bored]](../tcg/graemlins/dozey.gif)
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Risky situations always reveal their worst consequences first. Be the first to allow everyone to see the benefits.
From: New Jersey | Mind: Corrupt | Registered: Mar 2001
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White Gryphon
Member # 61819
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posted August 23, 2002 07:34 AM
Err... does Japan have the Professor Program? I don't think it does...
Pokemon nowadays is probably way more popular in Japan than in America, it's a part of their culture. Over here in America, we have censors and all that bothering stuff that says that certain things are good for kids and other things are bad. I realize that Pokemon's popularity has died down to the point where it isn't so irritating to hear about it, but there are those people who were turned off by that aspect back then and still have something against it now.
WoTC's Professor Program is for the older players who should be mature and responsible enough to be able to handle keeping the game alive in the West. We do get benefits. We may not get them now, but it should still be getting worked out. I am not a little kid anymore, I'm a teacher. Sort of like a fisher of kids (as compared to men).
I can't go to any tourmanents like STS or Worlds and stuff like that, mostly because I can't travel, but also because of the minor fact that tournaments scare me... I'm better off playing at the League and teaching advanced strategies of the game instead of getting into the competitive environment.
But I suppose there are those older players out there who still like the competitive aspect of Pokemon and still want to be able to play in their own age range. The levels are Basic, Advanced, and Expert. I suppose Basic is like just learning how to play, Advanced it getting stronger while playtesting at the League, and Expert is the tournament level.
Perhaps WoTC will open up an age group for those 15+ who still enjoy playing at the expert level, although we have a more important job as teaching and tutoring the younger players who will eventually take our place and represent us.
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From: Dogwood Town, Jojan | Registered: Jan 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted August 23, 2002 07:42 AM
I must agree that competition is NOT a big part of the Professor Program. If I really wanted to make Top 8 at the Prof/WOTC tourney, I would've played a different deck. I admit, Pokemon is a leisure activity for me, not a competitive activity.
So, what are you suggesting Ness? Are you saying that you want to be treated like a 13-year old? (Please pardon the sarcasm.)
IMO, Pokemon IS for everyone, not just for kids. BUT, the free trips ARE just for kids.
What do you want Ness? A free trip? If that's what you're suggesting, I'm not with you. However, if you're interested in something like creating a new age category for 15-18, then I'll with you. I think we can find room to have a 15-18 World Champ. Nevertheless, you can't rely on WOTC to pay your way to the tourneys. You'll have to rely on supportive parents, sponsors, and/or work.
But, if we create a 15-18 category, how many of those young adults do you think will show up at Worlds if they DON'T get a free trip? So, can you see the dilemma here? If we create a 15-18 category, it won't be long before the cry goes out for free trips.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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