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Author
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Topic: Why the new language rule bites...
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matthewssandslash
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Member # 74650
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posted November 30, 2002 12:58 AM
Here's an example that shows, to me, why it should be repealed and replaced with the old one. Note that this is a contrived example, but it could certainly happen.
Billy and Susie (yes, stupid names ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ) are playing, when Billy evolves his Teddiursa into a Japanese Dark Ursaring. "What does that do?" Susie asks. "Oh... see its first attack? That discards the top three cards of your deck. That second attack makes me flip a coin for each of your Pokémon, and each time I get heads I do twenty damage to one of them." This sounds reasonable, and Susie has no idea what it actually does, so the game goes on, and with his super-powered Dark Ursaring, Billy crushes Susie.
In the next game, against Bobby, Billy uses a different explanation, since he thinks Bobby might know what Dark Ursaring actually does. He says that for the first attack "it works just like an Erika's Perfume", neglecting that it works against him, too. He says that the second attack "does twenty damage to any of your Pokémon that I flip heads for." If Bobby actually knows about Dark Ursaring, Billy can just say "Oh ya, you can do it on me, too", and then give the actual definition for the second attack; he's lost nothing on this venture, and if the opponent doesn't know, he's highly unlikely to call the judge on something as "trivial" as this.
You KNOW that this'll happen. I don't know why WotC would allow this.
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Top 75 in the WORLD in Limited! =)
14-5 overall at Worlds in side events, 3-3 in Team Legendary Sealed, 5-2 in Theme Deck challenge (using Trouble!), 11-2 overall in one-player events... 6-0 in Gym Draft! =)
www.pojo.com/pokemon.html is the COOLEST site ANYWHERE.
And for anyone who cares, I discovered the Strength Charm misruling. You all won your STS', but I discovered the strength Charm misruling. So there.
From: Here, I think... I'm not sure though. =/ | Registered: Apr 2002
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Psychic_Prof
Member # 96987
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posted November 30, 2002 01:03 AM
What IS the new language rule?
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From: Redwood City Gym, Eureka, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted November 30, 2002 01:49 AM
I disagree. Your example is outright cheating and anyone caught would/should be severly punished. I ALWAYS announce at the beginning of a tournament that if anyone has questions about what a Foreign language card does, ask the judge.
The other day in a LOTR tournament game I was playing in, my opponent purposely misplayed a card (written in English) to gain an advantage. Dumb me, I didn't read the card and let the play go by me. Later, after the tournament, I read the card and realized the misplay. Shame on me!
So, if you fall victim to someone that likes to take advantage of your ignorance, shame on you.
Psychic_Prof, FYI, under the new Pokemon Floor Rules, you no long need local language cards outside your deck when you have non-local language cards in your deck.
[ November 30, 2002, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted November 30, 2002 02:16 AM
if any of my players tried that and depending on the players age he'd be heading for a bigtime run in with the DCI! at the very least he'd get a lecture about respect.
Everyone experiments with cheating at some time, but what you say is far to extreeme to be called experimenting.
FWIW the rule is for dci sanctioned play only.
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========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
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posted November 30, 2002 06:40 AM
Doesn't WotC have a list of the text on all the cards in an easy to print format that could be made available to any player that is using the Japanese card?
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What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
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WizPog_PokeMom
Member # 113273
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posted November 30, 2002 06:50 AM
Situations like this is why the Oracle exists. As has been said, I make a point of telling players both at tourneys and at League that if they choose to use foreign-language cards in their decks, it is THEIR responsibility to know what that card does...and that ANY misrepresntation of that card to one's opponent constitutes cheating. I also have the complete Oracle loaded in my PDA for my own reference.
Hope this helps...
'Mom ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Nov 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted November 30, 2002 09:21 AM
Actually, what it boils down to (at least in my experience) is that it's a pain in the neck to actually locate cards for translation purposes when people don't have them (if youu haven't seen it happen you'd be amazed what a drain this this was under the old rules). So this is a good change. Of course, from the player's perspective, as it still makes more sense to use English cards as translations (even though they aren't required). Why carry the whole oracle around when you just need a few cards?
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted November 30, 2002 10:42 AM
I LOVE the NEW FLOOR Rule change. AND I am sure players from around the world do who CAN ONLY get ENGLISH cards for many of these new sets.
WHAT this NEW rules does is place the RESPONSIBILITY for knowing the game in the HANDS of the PLAYERS & the JUDGE.
Can;t verify an evolution or as move or an attack... call the judge. The opponent is misrepresenting their deck... GAME loss penalty. What is the problem?
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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kurobatto
Member
Member # 82943
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posted November 30, 2002 12:02 PM
Okay, I thought of a real reason why the new language rule is bad. Say someone plays a Japanese Sabrina's Gaze or Japanese Misty's Tears, but they've had their artwork changed when they were printed in American. How can you identify either of them as what they really are? I believe I remember one of the MTs saying you can identify a card by its artwork, but these cards have their artwork changed.
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[tog.online - Your one-stop source for the Pokemon Trading Card Game.]
Registered: May 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted November 30, 2002 12:05 PM
As I recall, that effects a total of about four to six cards, most of which are easily handled (usually the artwork's subject material gives it away).
[ November 30, 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Espeon200
Member # 12924
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posted November 30, 2002 02:10 PM
The ones I can think of are Misty's Tears, Sabrina's Gaze and NP Promo/LC Mewtwo.
I've had the Dark Ursaring one done to me. Before NEO Destiny was released one person at our league thought it was a Team Rocket's Meowth without self damage. It was even worse because I had given my copies of the translation to somebody else. Pokemom, do you have a downloadable version of Pokemon translations for Palm anywhere?
[ November 30, 2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Espeon200 ]
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From: Places in my head. | Registered: Apr 2001
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matthewssandslash
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Member # 74650
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posted November 30, 2002 02:52 PM
Great, 'Mom. We'll all just upload this Oracle (which well over 99% of us, myself included before just now, don't know about) into our PDA's so that when we're judging a tournament or playing in a tournament and someone plays a card, we can call up our PDA's and show it to our opponent, and then watch as the person says "But that's not official! You made that yourself!" "But look at the official logo on the official site!" "You just forged that! CHEATER!" "No, seriously, it's linked from the main, official site!" "OH YA? I bet you forged that, too! If I'm wrong, why don't ya PROVE IT by showing me an American Dark Ursaring???" "Well, I don't have one with me..." "See? This is what it does then!" Then when we finally callthe judge, it looks like HE doesn't know! So we show him our PDA's, and he says "I don't have time to solve this! Figure it out yourselves!"
>_<
Oh wait a second! We don't HAVE PDA's, do we? And what if the judge doesn't have one either? -_- Come on.
And if you DO catch them cheating, please. A game loss? Don't make me laugh. That should be met with an immediate disqualification, if not a DCI ban. I'm not kidding. This is the worst kind of cheating, besides burglary.
Har har. You guys, remember the old days, when if you wanted to play a card, you needed to actually have it? With this... it's ruining the game, perhaps, but it's certainly opening up new possibilities for cheaters.
What you're really doing, by letting them play on your "ignorance", is letting the people who DON'T have every card memorized to have the advantage. I've yet to see anyone explain to me how that helps the game.
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Top 75 in the WORLD in Limited! =)
14-5 overall at Worlds in side events, 3-3 in Team Legendary Sealed, 5-2 in Theme Deck challenge (using Trouble!), 11-2 overall in one-player events... 6-0 in Gym Draft! =)
www.pojo.com/pokemon.html is the COOLEST site ANYWHERE.
And for anyone who cares, I discovered the Strength Charm misruling. You all won your STS', but I discovered the strength Charm misruling. So there.
From: Here, I think... I'm not sure though. =/ | Registered: Apr 2002
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted November 30, 2002 04:18 PM
Well matthewssandslash, you certainly have your passionate opinion. The new rule helps tons more players than it hurts. The good heavily outweighs the bad. And, we have enough decent judges and professors out there to police for such blatant cheating.
Quote from matthewssandslash:
quote:
Har har. You guys, remember the old days, when if you wanted to play a card, you needed to actually have it? With this... it's ruining the game, perhaps, but it's certainly opening up new possibilities for cheaters.
Nothing has changed here. You STILL have the card, just not a local language version of the card.
(SteveP jumps on his soapbox.)
We just defeated a ballot issue in Colorado that would have reguired English to be the language used for ALL public school classrooms in Colorado. You just can't force your language on people who don't speak your language.
(SteveP steps down from his soapbox.)
Like I said before, it's every players' responsibility to know the cards they're playing and the cards being played against them. They don't have to memorise every card. If they don't know what the card says, call the judge. Now, if the judge can't or won't resolve the question, we have a completely different issue here (bad or untrained judges).
Foreign language card-usage is here to stay. Most of the Professors and Tournament Organizers know that. They must learn how to deal with it. Same goes for you players. Learn to deal with it. It's MUCH better than the "olden days" when some poor innocent kid got a game loss if he played with foreign language cards and had no local language versions of those cards.
[ November 30, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: SteveP ]
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted November 30, 2002 05:21 PM
Cheating is, I think, not the rule in this game.
In the USA, you have English and some Japanese cards.
As Pokemon is a worldwide game, there are other countries, with different languages, where the game is played.
One example : cards are printed in French, Italian, Dutch, German, ...
If an Italian player goes to play a tournament in Germany, he needed his deck (maybe in Italian or English), and a copy of the cards in German (local language of the tournament).
The same player plays another tournament in Holland, he needed one copy of the cards in Dutch, ...
Let's imagine he's qualified for Worlds ... he has to find English copies of the same cards.
Quite expensive ... and stupid too !
The Oracle is great, ... and can be printed.
It's still possible to make copies of the cards, a page of 9 cards is perfect on a single sheet.
Do you need a Japanese copy of a card to cheat ? English cards are great too if you're a cheater And sanctions are ready ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
IMO, the new language rule is great, it helps a lot of players in many countries outside the USA.
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
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From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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IPGeek21
Member # 184
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posted November 30, 2002 05:59 PM
I just love how people get so IMPRACTICAL and self-centered about this.
I AM POSITIVE Michel can attest to how this is MORE helpful than not.
IF ANYONE in a DCI tournament mis-represents their deck THEY could be DQ'ed, they could have a game Loss or PRIZE penalty.
THOSE ARE the options. THE judge's call is final and YOU AS a player better know...
I guess he HAS never heard of a PRINTER... yeah I have my PDA and YEP I bust out with it WHEN I have to be POSITIVE about a ruling *i wanna keep as FEW trees being chopped down if I can help it* ... BUT I guess unlike YOUR LOCAL head judge... they TRUST me for knowing this game around my area ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Different ARTwork? Isn't this again YOUR responsibility as a player?
THAT is why foreign CARDS are not playable unless they have been released by WOtC...
[ November 30, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]
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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001
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The true lord of the pits
Member
Member # 116764
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posted November 30, 2002 08:29 PM
This kinda possible cheating has always disgusted people at my local league, so we set up a rule where if you p.ay with Japanese cards, you must AT LEAST have 1 american version in your deck, so you may switch out the Japanese card for the US one. Of course, you would shuffle your deck VERY well afterwards.
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From: TEXAS... Giddy up! | Registered: Nov 2002
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NoPoke
Member # 42315
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posted December 01, 2002 05:56 AM
Matthew you have missed an important point. Don't argue with the head judge! You may try to negociate, but an entrenched position especially when there is a suspicion of cheating isn't going to get any player much further than a DSQ and ejection from the tournament.
You are right that it IS a potential problem, but I personally think that the benefits will outweigh the difficulties. We have to remove the blocks that hinder the games growth at an international level.
(Biased European view there I ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS
some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL
-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------
'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.
From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001
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ShadowCard
Member # 2104
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posted December 01, 2002 10:37 AM
Well, you could just buy a translation book for pokemon cards. Mines only goes threw gym challenge though, i've yet to find one that has neo and E translations. Anyway, i'm at the piont that if you showed me a japanese card that i could tell you a generalization of the attacks and pokemon powers because i've seen most of them for so long. Especially because most were raved about at some point in time that when they came up in conversation, you had to recall what card the person was talking about based on part of the attach or pokemon power. Like:" that pokemon that says you cannot brings cards back from the discard..." (talking about neo revelation parasect). While that's partially incorrect, you had to be able to recall it and corrent them. Besides, if you had a question about what you think is a false interpretation of the card used by your opponent, its your responsibility to ask the gym leader/judge before the match ends.
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"And there came a hero who said: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, nor the very fabric of time, but the hero would not prevail...nor would he surrender."
Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted December 01, 2002 11:28 AM
Quote from TTLOTP:
quote:
This kinda possible cheating has always disgusted people at my local league, so we set up a rule where if you p.ay with Japanese cards, you must AT LEAST have 1 american version in your deck, so you may switch out the Japanese card for the US one. Of course, you would shuffle your deck VERY well afterwards.
You can do just about anything at league play I guess. However, if this is happening at your DCI-sanctioned tournaments, then someone is doing a big 'no-no.'
matthewssandslash, read what the European players are saying. They, more than anyone, know how bad the previous local-language rule was.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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matthewssandslash
Member
Member # 74650
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posted December 02, 2002 03:12 PM
Then make it legal for Europe (and perhaps for European players in non-European tourneys) and most of the rest of the world. I'm sure that the benefits there exceed the downsides. But in the USA and probably Canada, if you make the new language rule legal there (which it already is!), it'll just open the way for cheaters. (If you can't get English cards over here but you can get German cards, you need mental help or something. )
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Top 75 in the WORLD in Limited! =)
14-5 overall at Worlds in side events, 3-3 in Team Legendary Sealed, 5-2 in Theme Deck challenge (using Trouble!), 11-2 overall in one-player events... 6-0 in Gym Draft! =)
www.pojo.com/pokemon.html is the COOLEST site ANYWHERE.
And for anyone who cares, I discovered the Strength Charm misruling. You all won your STS', but I discovered the strength Charm misruling. So there.
From: Here, I think... I'm not sure though. =/ | Registered: Apr 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 02, 2002 03:32 PM
Promotes cheating? I think you underestimate how much common sense kids have. In addition, this is a crummy method of cheating-it can be proven after the fact, and it takes a lot of practice to pull off. Were I into hitting below the belt (and of course I'm not), I would probably choose something easier to do.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted December 02, 2002 03:37 PM
hey matthewssandslash, come to Worlds 2003. I want to play you with my all-Japanese deck.
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted December 02, 2002 04:07 PM
quote:
If you can't get English cards over here but you can get German cards, you need mental help or something .
Have you not seen the "bargain packs" of cards at places like Target or WalMart? Multiple foreign-language boosters at bargain prices; were I in need of cards from those sets, YOU BET I'd buy the foreign-language ones and use those. In fact, I DID do that when vendors had Japanese cards for $1 or $2 per pack...same cards, PLUS a holo ? Sounds good to me!
'Mom
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Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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matthewssandslash
Member
Member # 74650
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posted December 02, 2002 04:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
Promotes cheating? I think you underestimate how much common sense kids have. In addition, this is a crummy method of cheating-it can be proven after the fact, and it takes a lot of practice to pull off. Were I into hitting below the belt (and of course I'm not), I would probably choose something easier to do.
Actually, it can't be proven. Like the guy above me said, "they just took advantage of my ignorance"... they won't claim he cheated, and it's an unprovable claim if they DO (which they won't). This happened to me, too, when to save time I asked the guy "Do you know what Time Capsule does?" and he shuffled non-basic energy into the deck without telling me. That led to a REAL mess. Fortunately, I still won. And you're not into cheating? Could've fooled me ( : runs away screaming) ![[ROFL]](graemlins/roflmao.gif) Speaking of which, isn't it a coincidence that 1001 is exactly half of 2002, where we are right now? (hint hint)
And 'Mom,...
Japanese packs are really stupid, I think, because I've never seen them CHEAPER than American (although I suppose occasionally they may be). And besides, you just proved my point about mental health! ( : runs away screaming from both yoshi1001 AND SD_pokemom)
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Top 75 in the WORLD in Limited! =)
14-5 overall at Worlds in side events, 3-3 in Team Legendary Sealed, 5-2 in Theme Deck challenge (using Trouble!), 11-2 overall in one-player events... 6-0 in Gym Draft! =)
www.pojo.com/pokemon.html is the COOLEST site ANYWHERE.
And for anyone who cares, I discovered the Strength Charm misruling. You all won your STS', but I discovered the strength Charm misruling. So there.
From: Here, I think... I'm not sure though. =/ | Registered: Apr 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted December 02, 2002 04:46 PM
Perhaps proof was the wrong word. More like sufficient evidence. If someone plays a local-language card incorrectly, it's simple misrepresentation. Most likely the card was just read wrong. For a foreign-language card, one has to assume the card was checked first (virtually no one will put a card in their deck if they have no idea what it says). Therefore, the player should know exactly what it does. If the person is wrong, and it benefits them, a good judge can read the scenario and determine whether the act was intentional or not.
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