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Author
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Topic: What should we do to bring about 15+ play back into tournaments?
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Freddy K
Member # 24380
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posted June 20, 2002 08:04 PM
Hi everyone,
I kind of wondered, what with all the topics involving the major upsets across the ocean, how much of it will in fact affect the rest of the world.
I think I'm right in saying that the 'Dallas' fight slashed 15+ tournament play everywhere, but it did so not just in the US but in Europe also. We had around 15 places last year across the continent with 15+ tournaments alongside the 10- and 11-14, this year we only had one venue sending one person through the Prof tourney at Amsterdam. A lot of players were excluded but I believe they can be convinced back into the game. I also wonder if it had an impact on Pokémon sales globally.
Although we do have side events and Professor tournaments at major events, that got me thinking how we could all come together to try and figure out how we could have things back the way they were with 15+ playing alongside 10- and 11-14 at Challenges, and at the same time still have the Professor tournaments and Programs in place. I think that there's room for both and I'd like to see us as an international community try to plan what our next steps should be, to perhaps have an influence on those who control what still is to me the game I most prefer to play above all others.
Whether you think it's a good or a bad idea to do so, I'd love to invite your thoughts. I know I'd like more chances to come and play amongst what I honestly believe some of the best players on the planet in the US major events, and I'd like to know what I can and should do to make it so.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) -fK
[ June 20, 2002, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Freddy K ]
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AIM: TEFr3ddyK
Features writer, Pokémon World Magazine.
GENCON-EUROPE 2003
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From: Slough, England UK | Registered: May 2001
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PojosamaWannabe
Member
Member # 74186
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posted June 21, 2002 07:47 AM
Freddy K,
I agree with you 100% on the fact of 15+, as do all of my pokemon friends I've met. Many of us are turning 15 in the matter of months. Once we do, there is really nothing left of pokemon.
IMO, the Professor Program is not anywhere close to being a 15+ division. It is just something to hold off the 15+ uprising that wants to be included with the 14- in GC/SCs. I don't understand why the more dedicated players (15+) are denied large scale tournaments that have prizes such as trips and invitations. Yes, the Professor Drafts had such things but everyone knows it's not the same. Someone should tell WotC that being 15+ does not mean being able to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, and food for 2-3 days halfway across the country.
In the future, I hope WotC will once again include the 15+. It would be a smart move for the future of this game and the interest of the company. Every year more and more 15+ will be leaving the game because they don't have the big tournaments to go to. 15+ would be a smart move for everyone involved.
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Winner of Cedar Grove AQ SBZ
Winner of Rockefeller Center SK SBZ
DCI Rating: 1814+?
From: Central New Jersey | Registered: Mar 2002
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ssjvegeta0405
Member # 24493
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posted June 21, 2002 08:58 AM
Yes, they should probably do something about the 15+ thing. I think giving the 15+ tournies and trips would be great, but in the state pokemon is; I highly doubt any help from Wizards on this subject. It would be a great move; but some people say that is why Wizards won't do it.=/ (not me)
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)Y( Vegeta
IM me at ToneDogg0405
White Lightning!
400 and 800 runner- think you can catch me??
From: Hammond, Indiana | Registered: May 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted June 21, 2002 09:08 AM
Given the current state of affairs this thread comes with exceedingly bad timing. The issue may have merit, but now is not the time. 
[ June 21, 2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: LizardOTC ]
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lugia909
Member # 1997
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posted June 21, 2002 09:51 AM
I'm really sick and tired of seeing the same straw man arguments dragged up to say that the Professor Program is a sham.
1) We DO have trips. You can get to go to Seattle. You even get a special division event there...in UNLIMITED, which is now the only Unlimited sanctioned high-level event!
2) There ARE invitations. Beyond the trips that get won, a goodly number of Profs are being invited to Worlds due to their efforts and/or participation in the game and its events.
3) We DO get our own top-level event. At Origins, in just a couple of weeks in fact. And it'll also be a 'first'...the only multi-stage format tournament in Pokemon.
And then everyone complains about 'But it's not at _Worlds_!" No...it's not at Worlds. It's at the world's premiere gaming trade show and is INTENDED to showcase the game not just to other gaming people, but to other firms in the industry. In other words, WotC is wanting us to be their 'prime example' of what the game can be...and not just for the normally-assumed target market of the younger crowd.
WotC and the MTs especially have bent themselves into a piece of rotini to get this for us from a bunch of people in Japan that would have much rather seen us out of the way. No, it may not satisfy everyone...or rather, we KNOW it won't satisfy everyone, because some people have been raising hell about what they 'lost' since the program was introduced in January...but what we got is way more than we assumed we'd ever have. Compared to what we could've wound up with, this is pretty damned good.
The only grave flaw that I see right now with the 15+ division is that one segment...along with another segment that's part of the 11-14 division...seems to be seeing fit to attack another part of 15+ based on what appears to be a lot of nebulous crap, peer pressure, cliquism, and otherwise poor judgement. Now, if you want to talk about something that'll wreck the game...you've got your cordon bleu game-wreckage issue right there!
If 15+ is left to grow and thrive from what we have now, we could have it so good.
However...
If 15+ is ripped apart by a band of dissenters exercising their 'right' to selfishness, immaturity, and some utterly-warped ideas of what's 'fun' but which is in fact very poor sportsmanship, then we may wind up with nothing.
Let's not make a mistake here, therefore, about what the real issue is and where things should...and should NOT...lead for the future.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted June 21, 2002 06:42 PM
SPEAKING of which, the great Ness himself has now spoken:
NESS SAVES THE DAY
Is that not a fine example of constructive crisicism? 
NO? Perhaps it's just more foul breath from the Loch... 
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 21, 2002 07:01 PM
Actually, the unlimited event is not sanctioned so that WotC employees could play.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted June 21, 2002 07:45 PM
Addendum to the classic "Nick15's Guide To Economy":
What's the best way to show TPC 15+ support of the game? Wizards need not be convinced, they've known that 15+ players love the game for quite some time. The solution is ... MONEY. Money and player numbers, but more emphesis on money. Why?
Well, truth be told, most of anything in the world is kept alive because it's profitable. Sure people like things, but they show that they like it by BUYING it. TPC is keeping the card game alive in the US, as far as I'm aware, because the game continues to sell well here. (Wizards gets the profits, but TPC still gets a number of the green through licensing fees, which I feel is all of this is revolving around.)
If you want to show the TPC that 15+ players love the game, just keep pumping money into the game. Sure getting into fights over free trips could hurt things, but only because that's not a profitable image which TPC would wish to support.
BUY the new sets! BUY the new theme decks! BUY boxes of them, if you can! No freeloaders here (although Wizards seems to be pretty keen on GIVING AWAY product at events!). Buy it until you run out of money... then raid your little brothers piggy bank and buy some more! (OK, kidding on the piggy bank thing. Stealing is wrong, etc.)
Just as long as you flash the green, and can keep flashing the green for new sets, then there's no reason why TPC would ever want to stop selling the game. Frankly, maybe TPC would loosen up on Wizards if it means the game will sell better. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Now if you're not exactly rolling in dough to support the game financially, there are plenty of other proving points for TPC.
Wizards is doing as much as it can do, provided TPC's limitations. Wizards HAS free trips to events (I nearly got one in San Diego!). Wizards DOES give out invitations. Wizards WILL set up a top-level event for older players. All of which doesn't seem to be prevented by TPC or anything else. The best thing ANYONE of us can do is to get our butt over to any (or all) of these events and play play play (and buy buy buy if you can as well)! Numbers alone can show TPC that there are plenty of potential buyers of the game, and the more 15+ players there are, the better chances we have to getting increased support from TPC.... as if free Professor Trips aren't good enough to begin with. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Still though, at this point all we can do is show our numbers. Wizards has bent over backwards to keep this game going (so none of any of you should be saying that Wizards isn't doing anything). The best thing any of us can do is just keep on playing the game.
So what's up for the future? Utopia, that's for sure.
I estimate that within the next 3 years or so, we'll see a MAJOR shift from 11-14 players to 15+ players, as many 11-14 players get OLDER. And the more older players we keep in the game, the better chances are that OTHER older players would see their fellow age group playing Pokémon and would want to join the fun.
Better yet, the more Wizards tries to push this game at high level events (Origins, GenCon maybe?), the better chances are that other gamers would see Pokémon a more serious light than when it first came out.
But this is all just guesstimations based on what could happen.
So how can we lead the game into this wonderful future? DON'T GIVE IN. STAND ON YOUR GROUND AS A PROUD POKÉMON TCG PLAYER. No one said that supporting Pokémon would be a one way trip to easy street. No one said that you could do your duty as a player sitting down. No one said that you can ONLY play the game if you have other people to play with. Frankly I've been winging the Pokémon TCG for the past 2 years ALONE with no one to play with. Despite that, I haven't given up on it, because one day I KNOW that there'll be more players than ever before.
(Being a Mac user really has helped me in dealing with the "dying" concepts. Time to rally the troops for Pokémon!)
And if you've stopped playing, get back into it! You haven't fallen off the horse THAT far to not be able to get back into the game! That's Magic player talk there!
... Maybe I should set up an EvangeList for Pokémon, a la Guy Kawasaki.
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I am Nick15. And you are you. Isn't that cool?
FakeCard.com - Pokémon TCG Fake Cards galore. Neopets TCG fake cards coming soon.....
From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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Raikou
Member # 80
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posted June 21, 2002 08:14 PM
I'm quite pleased with how things are going at the moment, but the only thing I'd like to mention is that 11-14 and under-10 get about 32 or so free trips to seattle while the 15+ get 4....4...thats about 1/8th of what the other age groups are receiving, not to mention one of the trips will costs even more to try to iwn due to it being held at origins where there is already a $20 entry fee. Some more chances to win trips to even be judges would be great. Maybe I'd start dishing out more money if there was more for me to do IRL with pokemon, but with everything being so far away from me, all I have is a league with about 10 people that like all they dod is bring gameboy and sit for 2 hours and play. Our gym leader is even gone, so we don't even get points anymore(but I'm gonna see something about that to get it changed). I'm on the verge of quitting Pokemon IRL and just playing a few games here and there with friends online. I used to play trek, which was made by decipher and it was fun to play with the few people that played it around here. When everyone around me stopped playing, I left for online play and won a few tournies, getting REAL cards for prizes. That was fun, and I was able to talk about it, but even after that It got boring and I stopped totally, just going to decipher's site to look at cool new looking cards...I don't want this to happen to pokemon. I want to be able to get to a good tourney to enjoy myself IRL. I don't want Pokemon to end up like I did with stccg. Even if the challenges were a good 4-6 hour trip away, I'm sure if it gave me a REAL incentive to go, I could get my dad to drive me, but at this rate, it's looking shabby. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. All I am saying, is that perhaps giving some more trips as judges will help the 15+ section of Pokemon.
Other than just adding some more Professor trips to the roster, I'm quite pleased with the Professor Program. Too bad I couldn't do more to help out in local tournaments, but they're just too far away. At least I have something to look foward to in a week...A somewhat close sanctioned tournament at the Raleigh GC...though I will probably judge the 11-14 instead of playing...
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~David Friedlander
aka General Raikou
DCI Rating - 1987, 2nd in Raleigh, 3rd in NC, 110th Global...OMG GENCON IS UPLOADED...1940,2nd raleigh, 7th NC, 220nd global =\\\\\\\
AIM - DaveJfr0
"I resign...this time for good" =/
From: Raleigh, NC, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted June 21, 2002 09:03 PM
I must say that I don't really understand your 'economic point of view' nick.
TPC wants people to buy, ok. But if the players they don't want anymore (15+) keep on buying, why sould TPC change their minds ? 'We don't want people, and they still buy our product, they must be happy with that !' could be a natural reaction.
I'd just like to give two information :
1. there are big events for 15+ this year, like in Seattle and GenCon. A plane ticket (hotel, food, ... not included) from Europe for these events costs between 1000 and 1500 USD. Do you realize the budget that we need if we want to play such a tournament ? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
2. 10 of the DCI ranked top 20 players in Belgium have stopped playing in the last 8-12 months. They are all 15+, and only 1 of them is playing Magic now.
3 of the 10 players in activity are 15+, 2 of them have their child ranked in the top 20 too and play 'in family'.
Most of the players who have stopped played in big events, not for trips, but because they had the opportunity to meet friends and players from different countries. I'm sure they would have played there even if the prize wouldn't have been a trip.
There were a lot of 15+ players at the STSQ in Europe last year. No 15+ event this year and really less players in under 15 categories. Is it a link between these figures ?
I know it will probably be difficult to know, but I wonder if sales, amount of players in the leagues, at local or big events, ... are higher or lower than 6 or 12 months ago. And it will be more difficult to know the impact of the 15+ on these figures.
The Prof program is really great, and I know that the people at Wizards are doing their best for all the players, younger and older. When I see all the efforts they make, all the things they propose to the community, I think that the only thing we have to do is to thank them for that.
Please, no '15+ war' on the boards again. Attacking people, insulting people, ... will not help, we all know that.
It's maybe not the best time, it's maybe an old subject, but it's maybe not that bad to do, from times to times, the point on a subject that concerns a lot of us
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
Judge at the Gym Challenge Rainham 2002 - Gym Challenge Antwerp 2002 - Gym Stadium Amsterdam 2002 - Worlds Seattle 2002 - GenCon UK 2002 - Gym Challenge Lucca (IT) 2002 - Gym Stadium Antwerp 2003
http://www.pokemonteambelgium.be.tf
POKEMON TEAM BELGIUM
BattleZone BRUSSELS - Belgium loves Pokemon too ! ! !
From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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GymLeaderPhil
Member # 455
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posted June 21, 2002 09:08 PM
The Professor Program
OR IN OTHER SIMPLER WORDS
WotC: "I scratch your back, you scratch mine"
Since we're on the topic of money and how it affects Pokemon, lets look at the cost saving efforts of the Professor Program. The Professor Program is used to help others in the game, players and Wizards of the Coast. The Professor Program benefits the community and WotC with extra money, which can go to the licensee (TPC) or the player community.
How do the Professors save money? Primere Events no longer need hired organizers and judges. Imagine the cost of training these independent employees, flying them across the country to every event, accomidating them with room and bath, and then paying them for doing their job...
This was the case for the Poke Tour 1999 and the first STS Qualifiers. I could see that Wizards would be able to afford this then, but since Pokemon right now isnt "the thing" for every short attention spanned seven year old, we have to cut back.
Why was the 15+ Trips eliminated? Money would be the only sound reason, personal problems do not reflect the community as a whole. Some of you are over exaggerating the fact that some quote on quote very good players did something wrong, the rest should pay dearly because they are in the same boat. If anything, the only reason Wizards would stop 15+ from playing would be if every person over 15 and with a DCI Number started violating everything possible on purpose. The money could be the case, or TPC never learned of these small incidents at these WotC Events. Though I highly doubt they did not learn of them.
Professor Program is basically how the older players work for their rewards through building a player base with tournaments and making the game more appealing to all (and less confusing, example ditto). Everyone else, the only thing you can do to help Wizards have more special events is to purchase WotC products. I talked with Kierin Chase at Magic US Nationals a few weeks ago, I brought up that other countries have less events. He then said... It's all about support.
These programs like the Pokemon League are not flawed, they have their problems, but the main reason some of you think we arent doing so hot is because everyone is NOT supporting. Stop complaining about formats, less events, and build your local player base. What are you sitting around reading this for! Support our game! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
-Phil
[ June 21, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: GymLeaderPhil ]
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THIS is truly thinking outside of the box!
Check out Florida's Pokemon Website
From: Where ever the ladies take me | Registered: Feb 2001
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CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak
Member # 37400
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posted June 21, 2002 09:52 PM
Everyone is talking about pumping money into the game. Yes, we all should be doing it. I do it on a regular basis. There's about $500 missing out of my college expense account that boxes of cards have taken.
But only one thing is wrong here. There is also talk about more TRIPS and INVITATIONS. Those aren't the answer.
Money being returned is.
General rule of thumb: Magic players (the really great ones) can live off of their tournament winnings! Pokemon players should be able to do the same.
Winners of high-scale Pokemon tournaments (in this case, Worlds) should be getting somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000. A lot of people (the highly competitive ones) that quit playing stopped because there wasn't enough to keep them around FINANCIALLY. Not because it didn't interest them. Not because they didn't like the game. Because they had no chance of recuperating some/all of their card money from a tournament as Magic players do.
I will gladly continue to pour money into this game whether or not something like this happens...but think of it this way: What if, for every pack bought, a nickel or a dime was added to a fund specifically for cash prizes? I know I'd be a LOT more into the game than I am now (which is hard to believe because I got expelled for a month for threatening a Columbine because someone was dissing Mewtwo)!
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What, like the pro-archetype attitude is supposed to be restricted to THIS company, and THIS TCG?
All card games run on archetypes. Magic is 90% archetypes. YGO is 90% archetypes. Pokemon was, for the most part, all archetypes before and during MF2. Pokemon will be archetype-based during MF3. Pokemon will be archetype based when it is under Nintendo.
Viva la unoriginality!
From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 21, 2002 10:00 PM
If we could get more people to play by offering cash prizes...I wouldn't want them. Not that breed of player.
[ June 21, 2002, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted June 21, 2002 10:35 PM
Cash prizes?
![[Dubious]](graemlins/dubious.gif) Good lord: if people think that there are problems with sportsmanship, cheating, etc., etc., etc. NOW...just what do you think would happen if there were not "just" a trip to Worlds, but cash prizes on the line?
May that day NEVER come... ![[NoNoNo]](graemlins/nonono.gif)
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 21, 2002 10:51 PM
Trying to bring back young adults into a game that is generally targeted for young kids is NOT an endeavor I wish to undertake.
I find that my 14+ year old likes to do things that his friends like to do. Very few of his friends play Pokemon now. So, I don't see him maintaining the same level of interest he had the last two years when more than half of his friends played.
Many 15+ have left Pokemon in past couple years. I understand that many of their comments are often harsh and 'hard to hear.' Nevertheless, if anything is to be done to bring them back, they are the ones to ask (and listen to).
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted June 22, 2002 01:48 AM
Back again, jiggiddy jig.
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Michel:
TPC wants people to buy, ok. But if the players they don't want anymore (15+) keep on buying, why sould TPC change their minds ?
The TPC would see the 15+ as a profitable venture and expand upon it.
A company may be fan based. Be that as it may, profit still motivates it.
If the TPC sees more 15+ players SUPPORTING the game by buying cards, it will most likely change TPC's opinion on 15+ players. Much like mice can be led by a little bit of cheese, profit can lead TPC to increased support of 15+ players. And as long as there's more money to be gained by 15+ players, TPC would do almost anything to keep the riches flowing.
And as long as 15+ players are DROPPING OUT and not SUPPORTING the game, the TPC will go on thinking nothing of 15+ players... and most likely tighten their 15+ decisions, nay RESTRICTIONS, even further.
..
1. there are big events for 15+ this year, like in Seattle and GenCon. ..... Do you realize the budget that we need if we want to play such a tournament ?
If you live in Europe, I wouldn't exactly expect you to visit NORTH AMERICAN events. However, it WOULD be quite beneficary for YOU and your fellow European players to visit and PLAY in tournaments and events in your area. Make the extra effort to show up there. Show Wizards of Europe that you're willing to spend what you can to visit these events. If you can show Wizards of Europe (and ultimately TPC) that you are willing to go so far as to support the game, you alone might actually be the one to tip the scales in your favor.
In short: Visit local Events and play in them. By being there, it's shows your support for the game a LOT more than NOT being there.
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CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak:
Magic players (the really great ones) can live off of their tournament winnings! Pokemon players should be able to do the same.
See, only one SMALL minor detail about that.... Magic players have to pay to play in events. As far as my experience can take me, I went down to a Magic qualifier and had to pay $15 JUST TO GET IN. That burden isn't forced upon Pokémon players..... yet.
Wizards isn't weighing heavily on fees for playing Pokémon. And even if there are any fees, you get that back in cards. Sure the San Diego draft set me back $10, but I got 6 packs out of it. When I went down to the last Magic qualifier, I paid $15 and got nothin'.
But sure, there are more fees to play Pokémon now than in the past. HOWEVER, there isn't enough to justify a $50,000 prize, yet. However I wouldn't doubt as the general age of Pokémon players gets older, along with sets and game play geared towards older players (this being if TPC allowed Wizards full control), that such a prize would be feasible.
However.... many players prefer Pokémon OVER Magic just because it ISN'T Magic. Quite a delimma, isn't it?
..
A lot of people (the highly competitive ones) that quit playing stopped because there wasn't enough to keep them around FINANCIALLY.
Ah, but one of the many lessons of LIFE is that no one can make anyone happy. If Wizards continued without cash tournament prizes, then people would hate them and leave. If Wizards decided to give out cash tournament prizes, then people would hate them and leave. Frankly, if Wizards decided to do a jig, then people would hate them and leave.
Cash prizes would not change much. All it would do is force people who don't like the ultra-competitive nature of Magic in Pokémon to leave, and allow people who DO like it to join. Ultimately, nothing would be lost. However, how much or little is lost is all based on proper marketing. But at this stage of Pokémon and how it's being aimed for younger ones, this may be the type of marketing Nintendo wishes to avoid. I'd give it some time though.
Unlike Magic, Wizards has to bow down to the wishes of Nintendo and TPC, which is tough. Truthfully, I wouldn't doubt for a second if someone told me that Wizards WOULD want to give out cash prizes at Pokémon events, but can't because TPC and/or Nintendo won't allow it.
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SD_PokeMom:
just what do you think would happen if there were not "just" a trip to Worlds, but cash prizes on the line?
I've never seen it be a major problem with Magic players.... most people choose not to bicker over such because so many of their peers won't allow it. But with a particular lack of 15+ players to frown upon the idea, cracks in the more "adult" players are a lot more visible.
Again, I'd give it some time for the general playing age to mature and, for lack of a better word, evolve into proper gamers. That alone could change things for the better, and open up a whole lot of oppurtunities for the game's future.
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SteveP:
Trying to bring back young adults into a game that is generally targeted for young kids is NOT an endeavor I wish to undertake.
Their bones are brittle... snap them back into place!
... One thing that I've learned about being a Mac person is to deal GREATLY with crap just for being different. Just for owning a Mac, I've been ostrasized by my peers, teased by Windows users, and sneered at greatly by online chums. Nevertheless, I remained a Mac person, and even though I was going against the grain of other Windows users, I survived.
Now replace "Mac person" with "Pokémon player", and "Windows users" with "Magic players" and you'll get an idea of what I'm trying to get at.
Frankly, being a Pokémon player at the age of 15 and older isn't the icebreaker it was at one time. Playing the game is easy, but being a player is hard. Still though, if you TRULY love the game you play, then nothing can stop you from playing.
Back on subject.... if no one wants to take the challenge of convincing other gamers to try Pokémon and to stick with it (yet you want to support the game), then that won't do the game and it's players an ounce of good. You need to take rejection with a grain of salt (Mac users can understand), and keep trying nevertheless. Get fellow Pokémon players and PLAY right in front of other gamers. Better if you have a whole lot of older players ("older" relative to the other gamers). When inquired, explain the amount of work Wizards is putting into a game that Wizards doesn't actually own. Discuss the Professor program, and how there isn't something exactly like that in Magic (or other games).
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Frankly, as part of the Pokémon TCG community, we are UNPAID, UNCOMMISSIONED AVERTISERS, trying to sell the game to potential buyers. And as long as we duck out because "oh! no one else is playing, so why should I?", we do nothing but bring pain for other players.
If anyone should leave the game because of whatever stupid reason, then us players are better off without them. The LAST thing we need is someone who'll switch their allegiance in a blink of an eye just because something doesn't go right for them. We need to stick to our guns, keep playing the game and NEVER be embarrassed just because we play a "stupid kids game".
.... OK, I'm done ranting. I'm still thinking about setting up a mailing list for Pokémon like this. :-D
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I am Nick15. And you are you. Isn't that cool?
FakeCard.com - Pokémon TCG Fake Cards galore. Neopets TCG fake cards coming soon.....
From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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Super Psyduck
Member # 921
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posted June 22, 2002 02:29 AM
Giving cash away as a prize i think is just stupid.
Can you emagine sitting in a final and knowing that one of you two will get 50.000$ for winning the turnament. That must be so strange.
But if your sitting in the final and playing for a trip and representing your country or state that's more fun i think.
Pluss what fun does a 15 year old buy get by winning 50.000$. Becous4e he can't use it he must wait until he's 18. Is that right? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Putting cash as a prize makes this more gambling. That's what i think. And we do not need gambling.
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**Proud member of Team Europe**
*Proud to be a Gym leader
*Proud to be a Professor
*11-14 2nd place ECSTS Qt * Norway 2000 *
*15+ Ranked as 17 at Gothenburg qt, * Sweden 2001 *
*Ranked as 11 at the Prof. Tournament at the Amsterdam SC. * Netherlands 2002 *
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From: Norway, Nesodden :) | Registered: Feb 2001
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted June 22, 2002 10:25 AM
quote:
However, it WOULD be quite beneficary for YOU and your fellow European players to visit and PLAY in tournaments and events in your area. Make the extra effort to show up there. Show Wizards of Europe that you're willing to spend what you can to visit these events. If you can show Wizards of Europe (and ultimately TPC) that you are willing to go so far as to support the game, you alone might actually be the one to tip the scales in your favor.
OK, since april last year, I've been with my daughter to the STSQ in Paris, Barcelona, Gilze Rijen (Holland) and Amsterdam (and 2 STS).
This year I've been with my daughter to the GC in Rainham UK (where I was judge) and been judge at the GC in Antwerp and Stadium in Amsterdam.
I organize at least 2 tournaments every month and I attend, with my daughter, all the tournaments run in Belgium (except if 2 are run on the same day )
I have a website for the players community, come very often on the boards and collaborate as much as I can with the European office.
Sorry, but I can't do more ... still have to work to earn money to buy cards ... and with all these things, I still can't play with US players and friends
Once again, winning trips is not the most important. Meeting friends from other countries, playing all together, ... that's important. But if we want to do that, we need tournaments.
And unfortunately, like I think it's the case in the US, players will not make hundreds of miles to play a local tournament, even if he's gonna meet some of his friends.
Cash prizes ? No, thanks. Another topic talks about cancer inside Pokemon ... IMO money would be worse than cancer.
[ June 22, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Michel ]
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
Judge at the Gym Challenge Rainham 2002 - Gym Challenge Antwerp 2002 - Gym Stadium Amsterdam 2002 - Worlds Seattle 2002 - GenCon UK 2002 - Gym Challenge Lucca (IT) 2002 - Gym Stadium Antwerp 2003
http://www.pokemonteambelgium.be.tf
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From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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Bo_Dragon
Member
Member # 75780
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posted June 22, 2002 01:07 PM
I do not know if this would be completely relevant to the topic; however, could the lack of 15+ tournaments be the cause of some Pokémon Leagues to be disbanding now beacuase of low attendance?
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AIM: BoHockeyDragon, Pranger103
E-mail: [email protected], [email protected]
From: Greenville, SC | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mew35
Member # 82996
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posted June 24, 2002 01:39 PM
I like to say this
In whole Europew therewas just one trip to win for 15+
And that was in Amsterdam
I had to leave because of my responsablties
(Medicine and the kids ) so
There goes my trip to Seattle
So just bring back the old thing so we can play next to the two younger categorys
What do you think all the kids are getting older
and are quitting because of the fact they don´t want to take the test
(they have enough with their school work)
So then Pokemon is going to stop ???
I don´t hope so but it seems to go that way and those 15 plussers are just the ones we need to get the younger kids to play to learn them and so
that is my point why they should bring it back to the old thing Three Categories (Maybe even 4 the vetraens 30 plus ) ![[ROFL]](graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Registered: May 2002
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Michel
Member # 286
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posted June 24, 2002 05:16 PM
As far as I know, the '15+ decision' (like many others) has not been taken by Wizards ... but by TPC and I'm not sure :
1. these people read the Pokegym
2. they realize that we are not japanese and that we have another mentality, another way of living and thinking
3. they're concerned about us as long as the sales are high outside Japan
It's probably a stupid idea (it will not be my first one ), but wouldn't it be possible for Wizards to develop their own game, closer to the one we play (I'm not talking about piracy or copy !) ?
Games like Star Wars or Champions are maybe interesting, but are quite far from Pokemon.
OK, the name 'Pokemon' is very well known and selling Pokemon is probably easier thanks to that name, ... but was Magic the Gathering known 15 years ago ?
I'm sure Wizards could propose us a really great game. They have the people to develop it, the experience of MtG, ... and of Pokemon.
And they would be as free as with MtG to release sets, organize events, make the rulings, ...
But I'm not sure that, in the contract between TPC and Wizards, that idea has not been mentioned ![[Evil Smirk]](graemlins/Up_to.gif)
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Proud member of the Professor Program
Proud member of Team Europe
Judge at the Gym Challenge Rainham 2002 - Gym Challenge Antwerp 2002 - Gym Stadium Amsterdam 2002 - Worlds Seattle 2002 - GenCon UK 2002 - Gym Challenge Lucca (IT) 2002 - Gym Stadium Antwerp 2003
http://www.pokemonteambelgium.be.tf
POKEMON TEAM BELGIUM
BattleZone BRUSSELS - Belgium loves Pokemon too ! ! !
From: Brussels - Belgium | Registered: Feb 2001
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BigChuck01
Member # 78755
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posted June 24, 2002 09:55 PM
I never thought I'd see the day where people would shoot down the idea of money as a prize. Maybe it's just because I'm 15 and I wanna get an awsome car, but I think money would be a great thing to have as a prize in the game. I could actually go to school and not get made fun of for playing pokemon, cause I win money. It also makes the game more competitive which is bad the smaller kids and their parents, but better for the people who take the game seriously. We need to get to the point where the "Little Kid" sterotype is taken out of the game.
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Friends:1*
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Central Stadium Challenge Professor Event - 1st
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Registered: Apr 2002
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nick15
Member # 142
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posted June 24, 2002 10:15 PM
I agree; I don't think Magic had it easy during its first few years, nothing far from what Pokémon is like. I guess it would be best to just sit things out and see how the game matures on its own (obviously while still buying the cards).
An interesting thing to point out: Demand for a Wizards based set has grown a lot in recent months. I mean besides my own protests, I don't recall hearing people talk about how Wizards should make their own sets as much as I do now. Could this player demand for one actually make it happen a lot sooner than it would have? Hmmmmm...
And yes, Wizards does read what's going on here. Even before the original 'Gym was shut down last year, Wizards has a presence there. As for the TPC, I'm aiming that they hear about these forms either through Wizards, or from their American subsidary "Pokémon USA" (or both). I don't doubt for a second that they try and keep up to date about what's going on here.
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I am Nick15. And you are you. Isn't that cool?
FakeCard.com - Pokémon TCG Fake Cards galore. Neopets TCG fake cards coming soon.....
From: Dukhovskoknabilebskohatsk, Russia | Registered: Feb 2001
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Mew35
Member # 82996
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posted June 25, 2002 01:46 AM
What about my point
Or am I invissible like the other times I made a point
I don´t like it when there is an discussion about how to get the 15 + back and then beginning to talk about money prizes
I don´t care abbout money
I just want the old 15+ categorie back
[ June 25, 2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Mew35 ]
Registered: May 2002
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ukpokemonpro
Member # 518
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posted June 25, 2002 02:35 AM
To quote Lugia909
quote:
I'm really sick and tired of seeing the same straw man arguments dragged up to say that the Professor Program is a sham.
1) We DO have trips. You can get to go to Seattle. You even get a special division event there...in UNLIMITED, which is now the only Unlimited sanctioned high-level event!
2) There ARE invitations. Beyond the trips that get won, a goodly number of Profs are being invited to Worlds due to their efforts and/or participation in the game and its events.
3) We DO get our own top-level event. At Origins, in just a couple of weeks in fact. And it'll also be a 'first'...the only multi-stage format tournament in Pokemon.
And then everyone complains about 'But it's not at _Worlds_!" No...it's not at Worlds. It's at the world's premiere gaming trade show and is INTENDED to showcase the game not just to other gaming people, but to other firms in the industry. In other words, WotC is wanting us to be their 'prime example' of what the game can be...and not just for the normally-assumed target market of the younger crowd.
WotC and the MTs especially have bent themselves into a piece of rotini to get this for us from a bunch of people in Japan that would have much rather seen us out of the way. No, it may not satisfy everyone...or rather, we KNOW it won't satisfy everyone, because some people have been raising hell about what they 'lost' since the program was introduced in January...but what we got is way more than we assumed we'd ever have. Compared to what we could've wound up with, this is pretty damned good.
The only grave flaw that I see right now with the 15+ division is that one segment...along with another segment that's part of the 11-14 division...seems to be seeing fit to attack another part of 15+ based on what appears to be a lot of nebulous crap, peer pressure, cliquism, and otherwise poor judgement. Now, if you want to talk about something that'll wreck the game...you've got your cordon bleu game-wreckage issue right there!
If 15+ is left to grow and thrive from what we have now, we could have it so good.
However...
If 15+ is ripped apart by a band of dissenters exercising their 'right' to selfishness, immaturity, and some utterly-warped ideas of what's 'fun' but which is in fact very poor sportsmanship, then we may wind up with nothing.
Let's not make a mistake here, therefore, about what the real issue is and where things should...and should NOT...lead for the future.
I think what is really going on is the same old round of USA A OKAY rest of the world DOWN THE PAN. It is no good telling us in Europe that we have the same chances to play that you have in the US... we don't fact.. we got one chance to play in a tournament for a trip to worlds.
Fact the professorship does not fit everyone in the old 15+ category .. as I have said before not everyone wants to be ,or is capable of being a professor.
I have seen 6 players at my league turn away from the game because they feel excluded by professorship not included.
The answer I believe is to offer 15+ lab technichian status, let them help teach the game and play in tourneys and advance to full professorship if and when they want..
At the moment I can only see professorship appealing to those of us willing to make a real effort .. and we would have done that anyway! For other 15+ players there is nothing.
And outside the US even less .. please understand where Freddy K is coming from .. a Europe where WotC employees now work in Hasbro offices under an increasingly large workload with little or no budget. A Europe where a complete league kit is a mythical thing lost in transit and wrapped in legend. A Europe of separate offices organising competing and conflicting events.
So yes the USA is ok but the rest of us are still slugging it out with what little we have .. and sometimes the natives get restless.
[ June 25, 2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: ukpokemonpro ]
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ukpokemonpro
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From: Gillingham, Kent, UK | Registered: Feb 2001
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