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Author
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Topic: Leet-ist problems...
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 16, 2002 09:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveP:
Good Sportsmanship is very important in any competitive event. Trash talking that is intended to humiliate someone is certainly in the arena of bad sportsmanship. Trash talking that is intended to intimidate is borderline. This second form of intimidation trash talking should always be considered improper if directed at opponents that are younger, smaller, or the opposite sex.
Why should it matter what the gender relationship between the two players is? Trash talking is equally wrong for M-F, F-M, F-F, and M-M, as far as I'm concerned. Now, the one thing I haven't seen here is a working definition of what trash talking is. That's obviously because it varies. Mine would be a remorseless, persistent, behavior that causes a general drop in morale.
Onto the next question, is trash talking ever accepable? Can it be done in moderation without causing undue harm? Perhaps it is like alcohol-some people can control their intake, while others cannot imbibe at all without going on until they pass out. Were we to extend that analogy to this game, some would be able to restrict themselves, while others would just be totally self-destructive. However, I don't buy that analogy. No, wheras people who are unable (or in some cases, even appear to be abple) to control their drinking often appear to be less official, people who trash talk are often in a position to appear more official. Such a behavior has a capacity to create cliques, and from my experience, cliques are the last thing this game needs.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted June 17, 2002 12:06 AM
I don't think we're in total disagreement here. Regardless of everyone's definition of trash talking, we all agree that hurtful, crude behaviour is not acceptable.
Back in my military days, we used to attend training sessions on PC (political correctness). You'd be amazed at how offensive some words are to some cultures, cliques, factions, minorities, etc. No matter what you say or do, you're probably going to offend someone.
I've not experienced bad behaviour at our Pokemon league. But, when I went to the 2001 WCSTS, there was plenty of trash talking among the older players (in the side games) that was just plain, good ole fun.
Oh well, maybe someday, someone will invent a form of "fun" trash talking that is politically correct. Until then, it will continue to offend some and not others.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted June 17, 2002 06:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
Why should it matter what the gender relationship between the two players is? Trash talking is equally wrong for M-F, F-M, F-F, and M-M, as far as I'm concerned.
Yoshi, have you never heard/read any of the trash talk that goes on with sexual overtones? The female and/or homosexual slurs used against another player? I invite you to go visit some of the other unofficial, unmoderated/censored Pokémon sites to see this type of stuff; if you've really never heard/read this, you will get an education...and see why so many of us who have heard/read this are so adamantly against its use in this game!
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 17, 2002 09:30 AM
'Mom: Perhaps I should clarify. I meant that I saw no reason to differentiate "wrongness" based on the same variety of trash talking in various Male-Female combinations.
SteveP: There are basically two types of politically incorrect behavior: Intentional and unintentional. The training you mentioned obviously was meant to prevent the latter. Here, we deal with the former.
Now, there appear to be several issues here. One is the impact trash talking has on other players, the other is the impact it has on the perception of the game. You might be able to say that the players are used to it, but to outsiders, it makes us look like a bunch of jerks.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lugia909
Member # 1997
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posted June 17, 2002 10:13 AM
One annoying point here is that the tired old saw of 'political correctness' is now getting dragged out as being an inverse justification of the 'good points' of trash-talking.
But the fact still remains that the problem is NOT one related to this nebulous non-issue, but one directly related to appearances and impressions which this game gives to others. If you have a bunch of people who have been given a tacit nod...to say nothing of outright carte blanche...to act as badly as possible because 'a little of it is good for the game', then you may not be causing problems within the game (although I certainly beg to differ!) but you ARE causing problems for others' perceptions of what this game is about. Plus you still have the problem that 'some' inevitably leads to 'more'; conversely, 'none' leads to 'none'.
Let's not get confused here...this isn't a debate about the spin-item of 'political correctness', nor about some misbegotten ideas about constitutional rights, communism, etc etc etc. This is about _what this game looks like_. period. Die ende. Nothing more than that. It's about the face that we show the world in the name of the Pokemon TCG. If it is good, we can expect to attract players, the game will thrive, people will enjoy themselves all across the board. But if it's bad, then people will _leave_, the game will _not_ thrive, and you'll have a bunch of people having fun at the expense of others. Saying that 'a little is OK' of this is akin to saying that 'a little arsenic in the drinking water' is OK...and I think we all know from pure practical sense that NO amount of any poison is good for you, no matter what it is, despite what certain people may say.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 17, 2002 01:28 PM
Lugia has it dead on. This is about who we are and our public perception. To say otherwise is to deny your own significance (and last I checked, "1337s" aren't the kind of person to deny that).
Trust me, when you talk (trash or otherwise), people hear you.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted June 17, 2002 02:48 PM
Yyyyyyeah. 
Back when TRU was still hosting leagues, I heard a lot of it. There were usually 50-70 players at the largest league I attended. The trash-talkers would only do it when they thought the more intimidating adult members were not around, but I'd overhear it frequently.
I have a thick skin, and I never got personally offended by it, that was not true for everyone. My own daughter quit the game because older boys kept calling her names and saying she "sucked". I tried to talk her into staying with it after the store management intervened, but she was too turned off. Several other parents pulled their kids out of league when they heard stories of mistreatment from their kids. All of the offenders (and there were several)were males between the ages of 11 and 15.
At this point, we are down to just one league in a Metro area of 3 million people. That league is growing steadily now, and the store owner tolerates no bad behavior. She has banned a few of the former offenders. For each kid she banned, we've had several return to the league.
I am starting up a new league myself, this week, at a second location, and I think I've talked my daughter into giving the game another try.
There will be a conduct agreement form that must be signed by any minor and a parent. No conduct form, no season-ending tournament! 
Trashtalk... and by this I mean friendly baiting and razzing... is fine as long as it happens between rivals who consider each other as equals, and it is "kept quiet". Bragging about how you "own someone" is fine with me, as long as they are your friend and peer in age/ability. But, if it's a 14 yr. old boy telling my 9 yr. old daughter she "sucks" and that she'll "never be worth crap because she's a girl", then... 
There will be no trashtalk of that kind at my league. End of story. 
And if anyone thinks this is just about "political correctness" they have another thing coming. 
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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FireFighter09
Member # 3040
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posted June 17, 2002 08:15 PM
I can only say a few words on this.
Sometimes ego's run wild in our leuage but its so rare that we dont pay attention to it.
Sometiems it causes prtoblems and we stop it because it will drive others away whne they start to fell like they are not liked and respected. I hope all problems ego's make can be stopped in leauges.
Like by old buddy LuMaga1 said one time:
"Whats's the point in playing the game if you dont have fun".
[ June 17, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: FireFighter09 ]
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From: Pittsburgh,pa 15212 | Registered: Mar 2001
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Jeremy Badeaux
Member # 58602
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posted June 17, 2002 08:22 PM
I'm glad there are people like LizardOTC, and SteveP that will look at it as something other than 'black and white'.
I'ts not going to attract people if they see nobody is having fun because they are afraid of 'offending someone'... you risk offending somebody just by winning a game(some people just don't care to lose).
Does that mean you won't allow people to play Pokemon at league now ![[Razz]](../tcg/tongue.gif) ?
Nobody condones cussing out a little kid or using racial slurs, but you people are going too far, people shouldn't get kicked out of league because they razzed a friend.
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The Dark Gengar cometh
ÖÖÖ
From: Salem OR | Registered: Jan 2002
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Aelflaed
Member # 1406
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posted June 17, 2002 11:20 PM
Jeremy Badeaux says:
quote:
I'm glad there are people like LizardOTC, and SteveP that will look at it as something other than 'black and white'.
Boy, this is another pet peeve of mine. There should only be black and white, right and wrong. No gray. I am sick and tired of hearing that it's not right to do one thing, but it's ok as long as it's not too bad. Puh-leeze! It's either right or it's wrong, no in between. There is no, semi-right or semi-wrong. Oh, I know that there are many that do believe that there is such a thing. But, just because you'd like it to be so, does not make it so.
I think this stems from the fact that people don't like to be told what to do. Especially the teens, they're getting into that age where they are trying to show their independence. But, throughout life, there will be many, many rules that must be adhered to. There are laws that must be obeyed. There are rules that are followed where you are employed. There are unwritten rules that you abide by with your family. There is never an instance when you can just disobey rules, much less change them to your liking.
These rules and laws are there to let us know what is right and what is wrong. Black and white. I know that our laws have alot of gray area in them, but that a whole different subject that would take up this whole board. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif) All a result of liberal cry-babies that don't like being told what is right and wrong.
*Whew!*
Trash talk is as it is called, trash. Unnecessary, unneeded, useless... There is no need to have this "rub it in your face" attitude. Sure, it's great to celebrate a win, but not by rubbing another nose in it. Ever play baseball? When my sons finish a game, they go over and shake the hand of the opposing team and tell them what a great game it was. This helps to instill good sportsmanship, win or lose, this is just what should be done. There is no difference here. Win or lose, I always shake the hand of my opponent and tell them it was a great game. A loss can teach you things to help you next time to get that win.
Yes, we all play the game to win. That is what you play games for, I have never met anyone who played to lose. And I have never met anyone who wanted a loss shoved in their face.
Do you realize how a newcomer to the game feels like if they are told they suck. That they are gonna get their butt kicked. I certainly would be turned off from playing the game. Heck, I've been playing with my sons now for a long time and I feel like quitting the game because of all this nonsense. I can imagine the newcomer's feelings.
I will say it again: MTM has it dead on about what the Professor's program is. We are here to help the game grow. Which means we are here to help teach the game to all who desire it. To set the example for the upcoming players to aspire to. Do not take this lightly. You are in care of the future of the game. You determine if this game will live or die. It is your choice. Frankly, I want this game to survive. It's rare to have a game that young and old can have equal fun with. The future is truly in your hands. Tread lightly.
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Prof. Aelflaed
Co-Founder of:
Team Dead Sneasel - York Comic & Cards, Parma, OH
Another proud member of:
Team PokéParents - We play Pokémon with our kids!
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power!" -Abraham Lincoln
From: Parma, OH USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted June 18, 2002 07:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Aelflaed:
There should only be black and white, right and wrong. No gray.
Well, it sure would be nice if it were that simple.
Life is not like that.
Imagine two 14-yr.-old long-time friends are squaring off against each other in the season-ending tournament. One says to the other "I so own you, and you know it." A friendly taunt. Not something I would do, but not really hurtful, either.
In my book, this is not a problem.
Now imagine the next match: the winning 14-yr.-old against a 7-yr.-old beginner. If the 14-yr.-old says the same thing to the 7-yr.-old that IS a problem!
It's all about CONTEXT.
In my world, grey IS a color.
I'm sorry, but your need for absolutes goes a bit too far.
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 18, 2002 01:19 PM
I have generally viewed things as such:
When it come to things such as these, each person brings to the debate their notions of what is acceptable and what is not. When the situation falls above or below all such levels, there are few if any problems. In between, however, is where conflicts arise. Now, when the difference is small, the problem is rarely apparent. When the gap is wide (as we see here) many things erupt out of the framework.
Bored yet?
Now, for a person, gray (or gray) area is that region right around that level where it is difficult to judge whether or not things have gone too far. Depending on the situation, the gray area may be large or small.
For a group, gray area is defined by the area bounded by the various tolerance levels.
Of course, that's the scientific way of looking at it. People are pretty good at judging public opinion heuristically.
Mewtwo: Zzzzzz...
Anyway, the main problem I have with trash talking is that people play the role too well, much like that experiment in which college students played the role of prisoners and gaurds.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lord_Ninetales
Member # 386
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posted June 18, 2002 01:39 PM
Aelflaed, I'm sorry, but I have to agree with LizardOTC on this one.
quote:
Boy, this is another pet peeve of mine. There should only be black and white, right and wrong.
As you said yourself:
quote:
...just because you'd like it to be so, does not make it so.
Context means everything, and so there is an infinite number of greys between black and white.
Trash talk, while unacceptable in most circumstances (and certainly not something I would do), while immature, is not damaging, and not of great concern when confined to friends, and kept within certain bounds.
I see a huge difference between jovial banter and boasts between friends, and contempt directed at those unprepared for it.
I wish to make it clear that I do NOT condone much of the behaviour I read here, and taken out of context, I can see how even "innocent" trash-talk can give a poor impression of the game, but this isn't such a digital situation as you make out.
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Back after a long, computer-deprived absence!
From: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: Feb 2001
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Myrddyn
Member # 22247
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posted June 18, 2002 01:47 PM
After reading all this thread has to offer, I find myself reminded of something from my history, neither of which is that good. And could be an example of what might happen if we allow this to go unchecked.
When I was in scouts (You know, with a code of honor and the like); I was in a troop in boyscouts; where after a while the people who had been there and lived locally (I lived in a different town) acted '1337', using fowl language, down-talking me; not necessarilly to my face, and I quit. I did enjoy scouts while I was in it, from my many years of cubscouts, and it took only a month of hearing this to get me to quit.
It is one thing if jovial talk is made at a table; but when labels (derrogatory ones at that) are applied in group, or individually to a person; that those people are less likely to return. WE don't want to get them to leave, we want to encourage more to play! What is most difficult to understand in this type of jovial demeanor; is that it doesn't take anything really serious to hurt the feelings of others and 'force' them to choose to leave.
It's very hard to come up with examples, because everyone reacts differently to simple 'trash-talk'. While it may take one person a full hour of downtrodding speech; it can take a single word to damage the relationship this game and we have with a single player.
Because of that I say that trash talk should be as close to outlawed as we can manage. And the UTR does have clauses for "Unsportsmanlike conduct" which is exactly what this would fall under. So if these '1337' people want to throw the 'book (read bill-of-rights)' at us, we should throw the other 'book' (utr) back at them!
Encouragement, not detriment. Enough said!
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-=-=-=-=-=-
Myrddyn: Member of Team Aerodyneworks
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From: Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Jeremy Badeaux
Member # 58602
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posted June 18, 2002 03:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Myrddyn:
When I was in scouts (You know, with a code of honor and the like); I was in a troop in boyscouts; where after a while the people who had been there and lived locally (I lived in a different town) acted '1337', using fowl language, down-talking me; not necessarilly to my face, and I quit. I did enjoy scouts while I was in it, from my many years of cubscouts, and it took only a month of hearing this to get me to quit.
It is one thing if jovial talk is made at a table; but when labels (derrogatory ones at that) are applied in group, or individually to a person; that those people are less likely to return. WE don't want to get them to leave, we want to encourage more to play! What is most difficult to understand in this type of jovial demeanor; is that it doesn't take anything really serious to hurt the feelings of others and 'force' them to choose to leave.
It's very hard to come up with examples, because everyone reacts differently to simple 'trash-talk'. While it may take one person a full hour of downtrodding speech; it can take a single word to damage the relationship this game and we have with a single player.
Because of that I say that trash talk should be as close to outlawed as we can manage. And the UTR does have clauses for "Unsportsmanlike conduct" which is exactly what this would fall under. So if these '1337' people want to throw the 'book (read bill-of-rights)' at us, we should throw the other 'book' (utr) back at them!
Encouragement, not detriment. Enough said!
Nobody is screaming 'Freedom of speech',nobody is saying they condone racial slurs, and nobody is saying they condone foul language.
What are you mad about(I thought you read the posts ![[Evil Smirk]](../tcg/graemlins/Up_to.gif) )?!?!
Nobody is saying to leave it unchecked.
I'd probably get banned from any number of sites if I posted a list of names I've been called.
Anybody who leaves a game because they get offended by one word is not going to be playing any card game for long(again, not saying I condone mental abuse of players, or cussing at little kids.).
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The Dark Gengar cometh
ÖÖÖ
From: Salem OR | Registered: Jan 2002
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted June 18, 2002 03:23 PM
What some people seem to be losing sight of, is that we are talking about a GAME.
Games are PLAYED to have FUN.
Any behavior that ruins the fun for anyone is not acceptable. My daughter's fun was sure ruined by trashtalk, and the perpetrators knew it... and did it purposely. I am a high school teacher, and I see it all the time. If it gets really out of hand, in an extreme case, you get Columbine.
Conversely, that being said, anything that increases the fun (for everyone involved) is a GOOD thing. Joking around with people who enjoy joking around can make life more fun. Sadly, some people do not seem to be able to avoid crossing the line into hateful and hurtful speech...
...and I'm certainly not in favor of that.
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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda
"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC
"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19
From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 18, 2002 07:16 PM
Okay, on trash talk at our league, I try to stop. At home I try to abstain from it because people have a way of taking it seriously.
Now, for the comment on whether the world is black and white, and if their are shades of grey. does anyone here know what a checkered board with tine (1cm x 1cm) squares of black and white looks like to a newborn? It looks grey. Their eyes aren't developed enough to see it clearly. Even a board with he same checkered pattern in a larger size (say 3" x 3") while, not being a greay blob, will not appear to have the actuall checkered pattern. The squares will be blobs that sometimes are isolated and sometimes run into eachother. I like to use this to illustrate right and wrong. Based on perspective and experience, a lot of things seem to change from good to bad. Now I believe in absolutes. Its part of my religion (relax, I just mentioned the "r"-word to explain the basis of my stance). As such, I have noticed (or deluded myself into seeing-its just my opinion after all) that the world is black and white, [B]but[B] it is not a simple "this half of the page is black and this half is white". It is not even, as a whole, an easy checkered pattern. It is a complex and intricate mosaic. As an example, let us look at stealing. If I ask is it okay to steal your your money, most would respond know. If I added that it was because I was starving and had no deiscrenable alternative, then it becomes questionable. After all, if I had no alternatve, and had lost all of my money gambling it away and refused to work, then it seems that maybe I am getting what I deserved. Now add in that I knew I what i was risking. Now add in that you will starve if I take any of the money. Whew! Okay, back to Pokemon.
I disallow any trash talk because no is perfect. When done in sheer jest with a friend who understands that it is a joke, there is nothing wrong with it. But you can't be 100% sure how everyone else will understand it. So at our league, we ask that you forgo your right to "trash-talk" for the sake of the others, so taht there is no confusion.
Thank you for your time. ![[Smile]](../tcg/smile.gif)
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Imakuni Rules!
You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.
From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 18, 2002 07:40 PM
Well, I suppose another way to look at it is benefits versus risks. At the risk of alienating people you get...you get...well, I don't have a clue what they could be, but they can't possibly be good enough to be worth it.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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jdb728
Member # 60530
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posted June 18, 2002 11:29 PM
After going through this thread, IMVHO it has become a question of should people be aloud to joke around with friends at league, my answer to that question is yes. I agree with you LizardOTC, that trashtalking someone when they don't know you're joking should be banned.
Myrddyn yes, let's encourage people to play pokemon by taking their right as an American of freedom of speech away ![[Mad]](../tcg/mad.gif) .
Qoute from Aelflaed "There is never an instance when you can just disobey rules, much less change them to your liking.", nice to see you think slavery should've never been stopped, because the rules should never be changed. ![[Dropjaw]](../tcg/graemlins/dropjaw.gif) ![[NoNoNo]](../tcg/graemlins/nonono.gif)
[ June 18, 2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: jdb728 ]
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Proud 1st place winner in 3 of the 4 sealed deck tourneys I've participated in.
God bless America.
Waffles.
From: Salem, Or. | Registered: Jan 2002
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Lugia909
Member # 1997
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posted June 19, 2002 06:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jdb728:
Myrddyn yes, let's encourage people to play pokemon by taking their right as an American of freedom of speech away .
I personally am quite tired of seeing 'constitutional rights' dragged out as an excuse for this sort of behavior. As I have stated before, the US Constitution _does not_ guarantee you a right to act like crap. Nor does it guarantee 'freedom of speech' in _private_ gatherings, etc. Under those circumstances, the people running the show have every right to curb or eliminate behavior which they find detrimental. And for that matter, laws exist to make sure it can be curbed in PUBLIC gatherings/speech as well.
Go back and reread the Bill of Rights again; you will find that this is intended to protect PUBLIC SPEECH, things such as speech in the news media, at public assemblies, and the like. Note also that the Supreme Court has ruled numerous times that speech that is deemed 'obscene' by 'community standards' is not protected.
Honestly, it sort of surprises me that so many people on here don't have any idea of how the Bill of Rights works. But then again, given what people have had forced down their throats for the past 20+ years or so as supposed 'government', nothing much surprises me. Bill of Rights toilet paper, anyone? No? OK...well, remember to eat your vegetables, then...all of those pickles, all that ketchup...
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokidad
Member # 135
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posted June 19, 2002 07:14 AM
Well, I have to tell you this story that happen a couple of days at League to me and Eric. Sleeping Bag boy (Luke) and Michael were also there. It is kinda funny and then not but it is typical of some types of "trash talking."
Eric and I were playing a fun game, testing out the new Neo-On Format decks (MF2, whatever) and this kid in League who we don't know comes up and says to us "I'm doing a survey, how much money do you spend a year on buying Pokemon cards?" We tell him and then out of the blue, he says "You guys don't build your own decks, you get them out of magazines." Before we could even respond, this kid walks away very quickly back to his mother who was playing a game.
Well, that was a surprize. A total stranger telling us we don't build our own decks. ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
Later, we see this 12 - 13 year old boy playing games with his mother and younger sister (about 11 - 12). Neither of these kids are paired off with me during League time but there was opportunity. Then I realized, the mother is the same one that came up to me last year saying that my son Tim said to her daughter "Now it is my turn to get you back, take that." Before I heard Tim's side of the story, I made Tim aplogize to this girl. I also told the mother this will not happen again. Later, I found out from Tim that this girl was taunting Tim during the whole game, mostly "trash talking," and Tim had enough but was still polite in his voice.
So, what did I do this day? I played the mother to see what type of personality she had. I played my Neo-on Slowking/Espeon deck and she had a unlimited Blastoise deck with another water evolution. I thought it would be a fast game for me with her winning. I actually won the game but her tone of voice implied that I had the better deck. She also didn't understand why people wouldn't just keep KOing her Pokemon and stop playing trainers and continue to set up their side of the game. I wasn't sure if she was referring to our game or others. It was hard to tell since I felt it was very hard to maintain control playing a MMF deck against a unlimited deck.
As the game went on, I observed how she was very protective of her children and learnt that she was a teacher or teacher aide. As I observed her and her kids, the kids would leave her side and talk to other players and then return quickly to her side (like gorilla war-fare, hit and run tatic and hide for protection). The other players appeared to be annoyed but let it go. Hmmm, same thing that happen with Tim last year. Tim stands up for himself and parent comes to other parent to retaliate (protecting her young).
This time, we let things go, for now. At some point, I will take the parent aside to have a friendly talk with her but I think it might not work. I get the impression that the response I will receive from her is "my child does nothing wrong or she or he wouldn't do that. It is your child that is the problem."
Again, this is the grey area of "trash talking" or specific behaviors we have seen over the years, mostly worst.
Just sharing.
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What happen to my Sneasel? See what happens when you let him out of the box.
From: Falls Church, VA USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 19, 2002 01:52 PM
Pokidad, as the son of a public school teacher, a lot of the stuff you mentioned seems familiar to me (I can't give specific examples, though). Luckily, at my league we haven't seen this, either because there's a sense that it's all just a game and that getting worked up about things isn't the way to go, or the parents are just not that protective.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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jdb728
Member # 60530
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posted June 20, 2002 12:21 PM
Lugia909"Note also that the Supreme Court has ruled numerous times that speech that is deemed 'obscene' by 'community standards' is not protected.", joking around wih your friends is obscene(I can't think of any commmunitys that I know of that deem joking with your friends as obscene, but it's possible I guess)? "Honestly, it sort of surprises me that so many people on here don't have any idea of how the Bill of Rights works.", It was ME, one person, please don't go around using MY mistake against other people . "you will find that this is intended to protect PUBLIC SPEECH, things such as speech in the news media, at public assemblies, and the like.", umm, isn't league a public gathering of people who come to play the game and have fun(I mean, it's not invite only, so the whole public community is allowed to enter)?
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Proud 1st place winner in 3 of the 4 sealed deck tourneys I've participated in.
God bless America.
Waffles.
From: Salem, Or. | Registered: Jan 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 20, 2002 01:13 PM
quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peacably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Now, I see nothing in there to stop a company from restricing its representitves' speech in order to preserve its image.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lord_Ninetales
Member # 386
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posted June 20, 2002 01:44 PM
This "Freedom of Speech" arguement is beginning to annoy me.
Look at it this way, you are free to say whatever you want, but you must also face the concequences of doing so. Be it slander, libel, of being thrown out of a Pokémon League for Trash-Talking.
Democratic countries generally give one a freedom to say what they wish, not impunity from the results. Would any of you consider walking out into the street and insulting everyone you meet, then claiming to those who become annoyed that the Bill of Rights says its OK for you to do that?
...Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
[In an aside response to Yoshi1001, I included libel since, in general terms, freedom of speech often extends to print etc. aswell; slander is the spoken form of libel]
[ June 22, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Lord_Ninetales ]
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Ninetales Volcano is gone... stupid server....
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Back after a long, computer-deprived absence!
From: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: Feb 2001
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