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Author
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Topic: Leet-ist problems...
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Aelflaed
Member # 1406
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posted June 10, 2002 08:58 PM
This is a recurring problem that we have a our local league. And, from the sound of things, is a problem elsewhere.
The problem is the "leet" players. We have a select few kids that are quite good players. Just not very good sportsman.
A usual tourney will have these players bashing the opponent that they are paired against. Talk of, "They suck, I ownz jooz" and so on prevail.
These same players, during regular league session will not play any of the newer/younger kids. This has had alot of new kids turn away from league. We used to have 120 kids signed up for our league, now we are down to 39. This is atrocious! And it's due to these players that have no respect for other players, let alone the game.
I just wish these kids could see the harm that they are causing for the game as a whole. There was once a time when they were the new player. It seems like they have forgotten this. I remember when everyone had a "fun" deck that they would use to play these new kids. They would help these new players, teach them the basics. No one was worried about ranking our losing DCI points.
Now, these very same kids, play only for rank. They are afraid to play these "noobs" because their ranking will plummet.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of these kids. I refuse to play them, not that they would want to play me, since my ranking is nothing to shout about. And, it's to the point where some of us are about to throw in the towel and call it quits. It's not worth the added aggravation!
I am an assistant GL and the other assistant GL and head GL and I are at a wits end as to what could be done about this. So, I thought I'd see what the 'poggers have to say about this. I'm not going to mention some of the things we discussed, since alot of these players are here on Wizpog. I am hoping that they read this and see how idiotic their behavior is.
[ June 10, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Aelflaed ]
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Prof. Aelflaed
Co-Founder of:
Team Dead Sneasel - York Comic & Cards, Parma, OH
Another proud member of:
Team PokéParents - We play Pokémon with our kids!
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power!" -Abraham Lincoln
From: Parma, OH USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jeremy Badeaux
Member # 58602
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posted June 10, 2002 09:26 PM
Make sure you handle it properly.
My league location used to have some good players that would only play against little kids (and if you keep getting anihilated it's not much fun).
Trash talk is a part of the game (as long as it stays clean and stays within the game), just make sure they know not to cross the line.
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The Dark Gengar cometh
ÖÖÖ
From: Salem OR | Registered: Jan 2002
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Aelflaed
Member # 1406
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posted June 10, 2002 09:56 PM
True, trash talk is there, but does not have to be a part of the game. It's one thing when it's kids of equal age doing it to each other, which is still not good IMHO. But it's another when a 13 year old is doing this to a 7 or 8 year old. The younger kid doesn't know what to make of it and feels very intimdated. Hence, the dropping of league attendance that we have.
Plus, I forgot to mention, these players will whine and moan about being paired with these younger/newer kids. It's the ranking that they are worried about. PUH-leeze!
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Prof. Aelflaed
Co-Founder of:
Team Dead Sneasel - York Comic & Cards, Parma, OH
Another proud member of:
Team PokéParents - We play Pokémon with our kids!
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power!" -Abraham Lincoln
From: Parma, OH USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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bulbasnore
Member # 703
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posted June 10, 2002 10:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Aelflaed:
Plus, I forgot to mention, these players will whine and moan about being paired with these younger/newer kids. It's the ranking that they are worried about. PUH-leeze!
The ranking for the end of season tourney, right? Are you doing DCI sanction for the end of season tourney? If you were, they'd at least have to behave there, or you could caution/warn for unsportsmanlike.
I wonder how Wizards would feel about you giving points for the tourney ranking for being 'welcoming' to new players. I know its out of bounds officially, but maybe if these folks saw that there was a payoff for doing the right thing, you might be able to slow this destructive behavior.
If an adult was acting this way, he/she would be under discussion for kicking them out of league. What about making an example with a couple of the 'leaders' of this faction and give them a 1 week ban.
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Pokemon TCG is a game for all ages.
6th Place June 2002 WCSC Professor Draft
Now planning to see you at San Diego Comic Con, July 17-20, 2003
From: Where you play a kid's game and never T8 in it! | Registered: Feb 2001
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Joshman
Member # 1220
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posted June 10, 2002 10:11 PM
"Trash talk is a part of the game (as long as it stays clean and stays within the game), just make sure they know not to cross the line."
Trash talk is an uncouth strategy used in tourneys, but it has no business whatsoever in League play.
As assitant GL you should be addressing penalties for unsportmanslike conduct and taking care of the newer players. From the sounds of it, you need those new players more than you need a bunch of "leets" that are turning away members from your league.
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"Spoken like a true loser! If you're not playing to win, you shouldn't even bother playing!" ~ Bertie, Sailor Moon ep.64
"You missed it. All reality has come to an end. Yes, I, Thanos of Titan, am responsible. But I did not destroy the universe for the reasons you would assume. You see, I gained complete mastery over all there was, and then... discovered my achievements were naught but an insane joke." --- Thanos, Marvel: The End
From: Virginia, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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SauroN
Member # 373
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posted June 11, 2002 03:02 AM
I usually call people who often use the words, I 0wNz y00, Randoms =\
[ June 11, 2002, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: SauroN ]
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The Highgrounds: One giant step for man, one giant leap for the end of humanity.
Yes! Jumpluff DOES own you!
Cursing is good for your health.
I hate it when people edit my posts ...
Number of posts edited since day 1: Lost count after 237 ...
From: Sweden | Registered: Feb 2001
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Noah Weiss
Member # 59265
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posted June 11, 2002 06:37 AM
The nerve of some people! They just have to make "newbies" or "randoms" feel bad because these people are too concerned about their ranking. This is completely absurd! There are some people who can only have pleasure off other people's pains...
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Just call me Noah121... I accidentally mixed up "Login name" and "Displayed name..."
Link to My Forums: go.ezboard.com/bgameshowboard . It's a forum for Pokémon and game shows.
*Supporter of Rogue Decks*
*Opposer of Trainermon*
From: Lincoln, NE | Registered: Jan 2002
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted June 11, 2002 06:54 AM
I don't allow trash talk at my League. Period, end of sentence.
Sounds like you and the other GLs need to put the hammer down on these guys: after all, if they aren't "allowed", for whatever reasons, to play at your League and/or it's tourneys, what will happen to their precious DCI points then? ![[Devilish]](graemlins/diablo.gif)
Make an announcement: trash talk is not allowed. Refusing a pairing is not allowed. Intimidating a younger/less experienced player is not allowed. League is supposed to be FUN, and a place to LEARN to play or learn to play BETTER...how will the newer/younger/less experienced players improve, otherwise?
If there are kids sitting around, I will pair them up. Making another kid sit out because the only other "free" player is waiting for someone else's game to finish is not acceptable, IMHO.
Write up rules and/or a code of conduct for your League, which also includes the penalties for violating the rules. Announce it, over and over...and make sure each player gets a printed copy. If you'd like, make a "tear-off" section which the player must sign (and you keep), stating that s/he has read, understands, and agrees to follow the rules. Then, enforce it.
Hope this helps...and you've got my sympathies for your situation. Please feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss any of this off the boards!
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokenaut
Member # 189
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posted June 11, 2002 07:00 AM
I see the problem as Aelflaed sees it, only I am willing to be a tad more specific:
There are actually MORE than a "select few" good players as Don put it. York Comics is home to quite a few of the smartest, most inventive and most ruthless players this game has seen in a while. Let me see...so far players that frequent York have won four trips to this year's upcoming Worlds in Seattle. This is not to mention quite a few others who have gone to QT and come very close. This is not to mention two top-2 finishes in 15+ tourneys at QTs this year. Seven Professors in attendance says a lot. If I had to put a number on it, I would place the actual figure at around 10 players who qualify for what THEY would consider the "L337" group.
In this group of 10 there are several older players who are not part of this problem and can often be seen playing offbeat decks during League and accepting challenges to play from the younger, inexperienced members.
The others, though, often come to a League session and stand around and talk CRAP, not even playing if they consider the participants that day not worth their time. Every single time I hear one of them turn down a request for a game it makes me cringe. While my ranking in somewhat higher than Aelflaeds (HA!), I still usually have a number of young kids waiting to play me for a chance to beat the GL. As I usually have 6-10 decks made, it's easy to give them a good game and at the same time present some game mechanics to them they may not have seen before, all the while explaining what I am doing during the match to help them learn.
It is at the Saturday sanctioned play where the "group of 10"'s rank can be affected, and during tourney play they cannot chose who they get paired with, so that part of Aelflaed's arguement I will have to disagree with. They aren't refusing to play or trash talking because it affects their rank.They are doing it because it makes them feel like they are superior. They do it because they think it's funny. How this unwillingness to play younger players and mentor them DOES affect rank is this; During our twice-a-week League sessions these kids DO get discouraged by the trash talking. They DO get discouraged by the "no" response they get when asking for a match. This discouragement, WILL affect whether the EVER show up on a Sat. to try their hand at a Tournament. Maybe this is just what the leetist players want, to discourage the "randoms" from showing up Sat. and even having a CHANCE of winning and causing THEIR rank to plummet. Manipulation through intimidation.
Don't get me wrong. I am VERY proud of the players at York and what they have accomplished at this game on a National AND local level. The four trips to Worlds and the past STS results were well earned. Participating in SO MANY Saturday Tourneys with such high-level play has prepared them well for the pressures of the high-caliber events, and I wish them all well at Worlds in August.
Now, though, is the time to relax and give something BACK to our League and the newer players. York League has done MUCH for them in providing an environment where they could learn and succeed. Now they OWE it to York to make sure that the younger players feel welcomed and wanted. Only with this will we continue to have such great success there in the future.
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Ç...What if the Hokey-Pokey is what it's REALLY all about....Ç
Proud member of Team Poképarents- we play Pokémon with our kids!
Founding member of Team Dead Sneasel-Our team's home is York Comics and Cards in Parma, Ohio
~Being an insomniac dyslexic agnostic, I often stay up all night wondering if there really is a doG~
From: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Gymbo
Member # 30832
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posted June 11, 2002 09:22 AM
This is a VERY good topic guys. It's something that continues and continues to plague this game. Think logically about this for a sec. Once you, the older players are done and gone, who's left? The younger players that grow into the game. Killing the interest of young players through fore mentioned methods is downright AWFUL. How would you like it if someone nearly twice your age made fun of you, refused to help you, and ignored your desired growth in something you enjoy? I'd quit and play Yugi-Oh too. This game has been taking to levels not intended by it creators. Now, not to be hypocritical, I LOVE competition and I love to win, but in the same aspect I try to help my fellow leaguers when I CAN get there. In my mind winning or success is not enough to belong to any group or organization. One has GOT to be a team player.
And also, in my mind, there is no such thing as someone that is "1337". That concept is just some funky internet slang. If you aren't willing to help those that need it, you shouldn't be considered a player. Pokemon is a KID'S game, it's been proven and marketed THAT way. As far as trash talking, I wouldn't tolerate it at ALL. Gym leaders across the nation, just like Pokemom says don't allow it PERIOD. Cussing and trash talking is something that is not needed around young kids. Do you part to be more than a winning player, be a winning teacher, even those of you that aren't offical Wizards Professors.
Finally, as DCI Ranks go, I have feelings on that as well. If you are THAT insecure not to "risk losing your points" then just quit playing. Are you that worried that you can't win again? In my mind a "1337" player is one that can win/lose regularly, allowing not only growth in the game, but growth in life, teaching one how to become a winner/loser. Also someone that is a good team player. Face it guys, you're envolved with groups until the day you die. You have school, then a job, and then kids of your own. IF you are a good player, people will know you're a good player. In my mind, DCI Rank means nothing. All it does is increase ego, and in some cases earn "Byes" for events. I'm begging you players, place your ego and Rank aside and try something new. Do you have any idea how BORING it is to get the same decks from soooo many players asking for a fix?
So, in closing, be a "member" of your league. Do more than show up and beat everyone with your cookie-cutter Feraligatr deck. Teach and assist the Gym Leaders. You may come away with more than a high Rank, but also a feeling of dignity.
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=Pokemon Professor Jim Ferrell=
*AKA The Publically Acclaimed and Talented Deck Mechanic Gymbo*
*Accomplished Rogue Player*
*Second Place Finisher at the Ohio SBZ '03*
*Creator of Espeon Decks*
*Innovator of Expedition Feraligatr*
*Current Project: Skyridge Analysis*
DCI: 2032
AIM: XGymbo01X
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted June 11, 2002 09:23 AM
Well, I'm fortunate to be at a league where disciplinary problems are at a minimum. I just don't get what people can't realize that Pokémon is just a game played with objects that are nothing more than pieces of paper with writing and pictures on them, and that it's far more important what kind of person you are, because in the end that's what really matters.
Of course, as a fellow board member once pointed out to me, dollar bills also are just pieces of paper with writing and pictures on them, and the things people do for those...
Well, first of all, talk to the people. Tell them if they contiue their behavior, they will be punished. They may be a lost cause, but you do have an obligation to warn them. Set up rules as to what will happen if the behavior does not stop. That would be a good start.
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AIM: yoshi1001
From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Pokenaut
Member # 189
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posted June 11, 2002 09:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by yoshi1001:
Well, first of all, talk to the people. Tell them if they contiue their behavior, they will be punished. They may be a lost cause, but you do have an obligation to warn them. Set up rules as to what will happen if the behavior does not stop. That would be a good start.[/QB]
Problem here with doleing out punishment: York Comics is not your typical Pokemon League. The average age is higher. The average experience level is higher. The standard of play is higher. Trust me...I know this is fact. Yes, we do have young inexperienced players that need instruction on playing and deck construction. I, as a GL see this and provide where and when I can said instruction.
Were we to actually start banning for trash talking and rough-housing and general lack of maturity actions rather than just ASKING constantly for it to cease, we would quickly lose these same players. The same players actually think that if we kicked 'em out, ....FINE...they would go play at another location. Our success at York has been a symbiotic one. We VALUE these players for the reputation they have given York,and the owner values them for the business they provide. I THINK they value York for the location and personel (Gym Leader, Judges)given to them. I often feel that this same group of players in question take what we do for the game VERY MUCH SO for granted. One look in WizPog's League and Tourney forum will show ANYONE that there are MANY places both here in the US and abroad that would KILL for a location like York.
Perhaps myself Becky and Aelflaed HAVE been too easy and permissive with poor behaviour. Perhaps it IS time to put it in writing and enforce it. If this is to be corrected, I KNOW there are some that will not like what will be done.
To those of you from York reading this and thinking "Is Dan talking about ME?...nahhh", be forewarned now. Some changes have been discussed before, and this posting may accelerate the process.
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Ç...What if the Hokey-Pokey is what it's REALLY all about....Ç
Proud member of Team Poképarents- we play Pokémon with our kids!
Founding member of Team Dead Sneasel-Our team's home is York Comics and Cards in Parma, Ohio
~Being an insomniac dyslexic agnostic, I often stay up all night wondering if there really is a doG~
From: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Mr. Popo
Member
Member # 85457
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posted June 11, 2002 10:26 AM
Dan and Don I agree with you both and I disagree with you both.
Yes the better players often say no to younger less experienced players in free games on Mondays and Thursdays. I often do it and yes I know I shouldn't.
I disagree with you saying that the younger players get made fun of. The older players make fun of eachother all the time but I very rarely hear or see any older player make fun of a younger player. It happens but not very often and when it does happen it seems like its always the same people doing it (coughdrewsometimescoughjeremycough) and a younger player that makes fun of everyone (coughjustincough).
Your son Spencer gets picked on a ton but I'm almost positive that he knows no one is serious and he thinks its funny most of the time.
Like Gymbo said this is a very good and important subject.
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If I had $1 for every brain you don't have I'd have $1.
York Comics Rules!!!!!
Garden City Gym Challenge 11-14 Champion.
16th Place 2002 Pokemon World Championship 11-14 Age Division.
I was FTKed by Tyrogue 6 Times in the 11-14 Championships.
From: N.E.O. 20 Minutes from York | Registered: May 2002
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Dark Psyduck
Member
Member # 41067
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posted June 11, 2002 10:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Pokenaut:
To those of you from York reading this and thinking "Is Dan talking about ME?...nahhh", be forewarned now. Some changes have been discussed before, and this posting may accelerate the process.
HAR
I honestly do not know what you guys are talking about. I've never seen someone out and out 'complain' about being paired with one of the younger players. Honestly, I can't think of a SINGLE person at York who's actually concerned about their DCI rank enough to be mad when there's an opportunity for it to drop 15 or so points. There is one who comes close, but he still plays his games, and isn't one of the people who needs archetypes to win.
And sometimes on Saturday's I honestly have a headache from thinking so much into certain games, so I don't want to play fun games. Also, it has occured before that I'm watching a good match or having a discussion with someone, and I'll turn down a game. I usually will play the person later after the tourney though.
I haven't gone on Mondays and Thursdays due to how it's too far away on school nights (but I might show up now), and how, honestly, there's no need to go. Sure, play the game for fun. Work on decks. Thats what I do at home. I'm constantly playing on Apprentice (AIM me at SiriusBomb), and IMing, discussing, or posting decks to get feedback from others.
I've also never heard any serious trash talking. Obviously it's all in fun when Tom or someone else and I talk each other up before a match, even though we know a good game is ahead. Of course, I wouldn't trash talk anyone who I think might take it seriously.
And NO ONE at York plays only for rank. Period. To even say that is a complete lie. We're all friends there, and everyone has a good time every Saturday. Maybe you guys should relax a bit, and just tell jokes, laugh, and enjoy playing the game in a highly competetive tourney. I sure do.
[ June 11, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Dark Psyduck ]
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FIRST LC PACK: REVERSE FOIL PSYDUCK
~First Banned Member of the Pokemon Ruins~
~Team Dead Sneasel~
4 Trips to Worlds and counting!
~Champion 11-14 Central Stadium Challenge (Toxicity)~
I'll be gladly accepting Psyduck cards, signed or not, at Origins and Worlds.
From: Ohio - about 40 minutes from York | Registered: Aug 2001
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ShuckleGod
Member # 15488
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posted June 11, 2002 10:51 AM
It's not even so much about the "1337" players at York, it's just the immaturity in General. After Torunaments, kids, as old as 13 or 14 (you know who you are) can start randomly bothering other people while they play, steal their cards or dice and start throwing them, or just run around obnoxiously like a 5 year old. Not to mention the horrible language shown by the younger players. I occasionaly get mad and swear under my breath, (who doesn't?) But some players (Dan knows who I'm referring to) will openly, for no reason at all, just cuss you out.
It's not always this bad, sure, don't get me wrong, but more serious actions must be taken to help league attendance. Becky was so close to throwing some kid out of the league on Saturday because of his mouth. I seriously think she should have. Stuff like that doesn't belong at the league. Period. The game is fun, don't get carried away. ![[Bored]](graemlins/dozey.gif)
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Another proud member of York Comics league, Parma, OH.
List of Bizarre Rogue decks played in DCI tournies (tourney record):
-Alakazam/Steelix (7-0) (7/27/02) (1st place)
-Ampharos (3-2) (7/20/02) (10th place)
-Mew/Electabuzz (3-3) (7/13/02) (5th place)
-Ampharos (2-2-1) (7/6/02 Origins)
-Nidoking (2-3) (6/29/02) (8th place)
-Light Jolteon (3-3) (6/22/02) (8th place)
-Pidgeot (5-3) (6/15/02) (3rd place)
AIM: ShuckleGod
DCI: 1856 (7/17/02)
~Show your true skill. Be Unique.
From: Broadview Hts. Ohio (about 20 mins. from York) | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pokenaut
Member # 189
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posted June 11, 2002 10:59 AM
To Brian Six aka Dark Psyduck:
Your response, beside being typical for your mindset, is irrelevant. You are never there during regular League sessions. The reasons for you not coming do not matter. Even your infrequent Saturday Tourney attendance doesn't give you much viable input on this problem. Seeing as how your entire post revolves around YOU, it makes you look like you feel somehow guilty of being part of the problem.
As far as you saying that no one at York cares about rank...you are off-planet with that one ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ June 11, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Pokenaut ]
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Ç...What if the Hokey-Pokey is what it's REALLY all about....Ç
Proud member of Team Poképarents- we play Pokémon with our kids!
Founding member of Team Dead Sneasel-Our team's home is York Comics and Cards in Parma, Ohio
~Being an insomniac dyslexic agnostic, I often stay up all night wondering if there really is a doG~
From: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted June 11, 2002 11:08 AM
And there in lies the problem folks. Some just don't realize how they act/react effects others. If you can't see a problem then one does not exist right?
Have seen it at the Events we hold too often. Ego's get in the way of sportsmanship. To say it does not exist is ridiculous. Now to what degree that is another matter.
Unfortunately good sportsmanship is something that one has or does not have.
No reflection on you DarkPsyduck. I do not know the circumstances of your particular league. I just know what I have observed at many events and leagues that I have attended.
It is a problem at some of these.
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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LeagueMom
Member # 53859
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posted June 11, 2002 12:26 PM
As the GL for York I figured I should add my two cents here.
Let me start off by saying that as Don and Dan have already stated, we do value the players at York. We want them to win, we want them to be the best. We do our best to provide as much opportunity for them to grow and to succeed as we can. That said, we do seem to be having increasing problems with the behavior during league meetings.
The attitude that any league is going to survive, much less grow without new members is ludicrous. However it appears that some players would prefer that we shut our doors and didn't allow any new players in, especially young ones.
As to the statement that the players don't care about their rank, that doesn't even deserve a reply it's so absurd. As the TO, I hear nothing but whining about rank, pairings, etc.
As Shucklegod points out, the maturity level seems to be a real problem. (It's not the little kids shooting the rubber bands,etc.)
As for trash-talking the little/new kids, it happens, believe me. I find myself asking people to show respect more and more. Perhaps everyone has forgotten that once upon a time they were the new players.
I think that Don, Dan, and I now recognize that perhaps we have been too lenient and too forgiving in our efforts to build a strong league.
Please don't get us wrong, these are truly wonderful players who deserve respect for their talents and abilities. We genuinely enjoy their truimphs and try to console them in their defeats.
We try to show respect to each and everyone of them, all we ask is that they return at least a little of that respect to others.
From: Broadview Hts. Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Tyranitar-666
Member # 87284
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posted June 11, 2002 01:26 PM
oooohhhhh man. This entire thread is making me SICK. Excuse me while I go vommit so hard I might kill myself. First off, while I have probably the BIGGEST ego on these boards and would be imagined by many to do this to alot of kids, I dont. I do not go to York anymore, as its way too far. BUT, i have seen what you are talking about, and let me say this. These so called LEET players you speak of dont do it to get rid of attendence etc etc etc. They go to the store to play against there friends and playtest the decks they plan on using for BIG tournements. I dont care what you say, there are a good deal of players who dont just play " for the fun of it ". I know the next response. Well, they should. IT IS NO ONES BUSINESS WHY SOMEONE PLAYS THE GAME. Just because you play it for fun etc etc etc doesnt mean you have the right to tell everyone that. There is a very good competitive level to this game. I understand FULLY why people dont play the younger kids. For one, they go to get better and tweak there decks and explore teh formats. What do they gain towards that end by playing someone who they would beat with just about ANY deck ? They want a challenge to improve there skills. As "unkind " as you say it is, they go there to socialize as well as play I am sure. So lay off of them already. Player attendance is down EVERYWHERE drastically, so stop over reacting. As for trash talking the little kids, that doesnt happen. The most that happens is they get ignored while the older " leet " players talka nd play amongst themselves. So if who you talk to is allowed to be forced upon you by the Gym Leader, i think I may go throw up again.
I have to agree 100% with D Psyduck here. ALso, just FYI so you dont go and rip on me, i do ALOT to help the local kids at my league. We have a decent deal of kids who are decent, not in nearly as large of numbers ( and also, I as well as i am sure a good deal others are SICK of hearing about it too btw ) I have made countless kids decks, as well as battling all of them when they ask. Plus, I have donated many cards to them. Alot of them respect me and I do my best to be nice to them. It gets annoying ALOT i will say, but I control myself. If i dont wanna play someone, I simply say : Nah, not right now, or Nah, im busy in a game already, or Im trying to finish up my deck by trading, sorry " or even if im just playinga gainst Trump Bunny etc etc I will simply say I am play testing for the next GC etc. And I have also noticed something else. I have seen MORE players leave after playing the " leet " players over and over by being discouraged than by playing among the lower level players.
So I feel this topic is mute and pointless. There is nothing you can do to control how people act. It is not as big of problem as you claim. Try looking at it through the eyes of the other players instead of just the kids. Go ahead and " kick out " all the older players...see how long the rest of the players stay... they wont.
and DK Psyduck- you and i both know Tom plays for ranking and stuff solely ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) lol.
also, trash talking among friends RULES! lol.
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1st place at the Columbus QT and GC, as well as the Cleveland QT and Cincinatti QT.
2nd place at ECSTS 2001 day 1
7th place at ECSTS 2001 day 2
2nd place at CSC 2002 ( notice a trend? )
Not so Proud Member of Team NEO
From: NEO | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pokenaut
Member # 189
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posted June 11, 2002 02:12 PM
Rather than responding the way I would like to Tyranitar-666's reply (which I cannot...board rules and all) I will just let it sit there and fester unchallenged. It's almost like listening to Mike Tyson speak. You THINK you know WHAT he means to say, but you laugh because he just cannot say it without making matters worse.
The forest for the trees and all.
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Ç...What if the Hokey-Pokey is what it's REALLY all about....Ç
Proud member of Team Poképarents- we play Pokémon with our kids!
Founding member of Team Dead Sneasel-Our team's home is York Comics and Cards in Parma, Ohio
~Being an insomniac dyslexic agnostic, I often stay up all night wondering if there really is a doG~
From: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Tyranitar-666
Member # 87284
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posted June 11, 2002 02:22 PM
ah pokenaut. i cannot say what id like to about u on these boards...but i can on the NEO site ![[Smile]](smile.gif) and oh i plan to maybe even make a main page banner for it. I may or may not. Depends.
As for Mike Tyson, that guy is hilarious. Its so entertaining to listen to what he says. That is a great man. *Bows to Tyson*
Im sorry Dan, but you cant change people to be exactly as you want them to be. Sorry to burst your bubble dude.
Also, I will admit York has some VERY talented players, and a good deal of them...but why do you keep bragging about them when you arent one of them?
As for the actual topic to keep on track here... unless the players decide to act differently, there is nothing you can do. AND, pressuring them into it is the WORST way to go. Trying to get a group of adults to convince kids and teenagers to do something is about the LEAST successful method. It only irritates them more and MIGHT even further complicate the matters. I have talked to alot of the people I am sure you are referencing and all this is doing is making them mad. It wont help doing it like this. and THIS I am saying to try and help. I want to see the game succeed as well as any other. As a teenager myself, I will tell you that threads like these dont work. This wont get anything changed. This will have the same effect as if you basically made it a store rule...they will get frusterated and LEAVE. There are other stores. Dont mess with the amount of talent you have accumulated already guys. You guys have Brad, Joe, Dave M, Stas, Drew, Tom, Brian, Jim??? and many others.
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1st place at the Columbus QT and GC, as well as the Cleveland QT and Cincinatti QT.
2nd place at ECSTS 2001 day 1
7th place at ECSTS 2001 day 2
2nd place at CSC 2002 ( notice a trend? )
Not so Proud Member of Team NEO
From: NEO | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pokenaut
Member # 189
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posted June 11, 2002 02:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranitar-666:
Also, I will admit York has some VERY talented players, and a good deal of them...but why do you keep bragging about them when you arent one of them?
I brag about them because, as a GL at York for several years now, I am proud of their achievements. Is that so hard to understand?
QB]
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Ç...What if the Hokey-Pokey is what it's REALLY all about....Ç
Proud member of Team Poképarents- we play Pokémon with our kids!
Founding member of Team Dead Sneasel-Our team's home is York Comics and Cards in Parma, Ohio
~Being an insomniac dyslexic agnostic, I often stay up all night wondering if there really is a doG~
From: Shaker Heights, Ohio USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted June 11, 2002 02:35 PM
T-Tar: The word you wanted was "moot". Sorry. Pet peeve of mine.
As for the attitude of "it's nobody's business"; Well, it certainly is the business of the store and those that run the league. They run it with their eye on the total experience of all the participants. As LeagueMom points out, the long term viability of the league does indeed need to be considered.
It does not have to be mutually exclusive. Save your GC deck for the strong players and whip out a Seaking deck for the kids. You don't have to take up the whole league time with them, but if all you want is to play with one or two players, invite them over to your house and play there. League is a "take on all comers" enviornment.
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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SD_PokeMom
Member # 97
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posted June 11, 2002 02:40 PM
*sigh*
O...kay..another good discussion gone down the tubes, because of personal attacks.
I will comment on one quote, this one, before locking: quote:
I understand FULLY why people dont play the younger kids. For one, they go to get better and tweak there decks and explore teh formats. What do they gain towards that end by playing someone who they would beat with just about ANY deck ? They want a challenge to improve there skills. As "unkind " as you say it is, they go there to socialize as well as play I am sure. So lay off of them already.
I know that the person who posted this is a Professor...and my suggestion is that the players with this attitude go back to the Professor Program page and READ MTM's description of just what a Pokémon Professor is supposed to be: quote:
In the world of the Pokémon TCG, there are two types of participants. There are the young trainers that spend their time learning and mastering the art of being a Pokémon trainer, and there are various mentors, such as Nurses, Police, and Professors.
This second group is made up of people who have already mastered the game-play aspect of training Pokémon and who now work toward sharing their knowledge and experiences with younger trainers. This group of people also helps to maintain the overall structure of the Pokémon world. That is the kind of activity that the Pokémon Professor program is designed to emulate and reward.
There are three main attributes of a good Pokémon Professor that this program will attempt to train and reward: knowledge, participation, and skill.
Knowledge, for the purposes of the Pokémon Professor program, is defined as knowing how to play the Pokémon TCG, knowing how to judge the Pokémon TCG, and knowing the Pokémon tournament rules. Knowledge is the foundation on which being a Pokémon Professor and being a good judge are built. Without it, you cannot effectively teach younger players the finer aspects of the game, and, in turn, those younger players will not learn the game as well as they should.
Participation, for the purposes of the Pokémon Professor program, is defined as active nonplaying involvement with the Pokémon TCG community. Your participation is measured by how much you work at the local- or premier-tournament level as a judge or tournament organizer or by whether or not you submit playtesting reports and website feedback. Without your participation, the Pokémon TCG Leagues and tournaments will dry up and will not be as productive as they could be with your help.
Skill, for the purposes of the Pokémon Professor program, is defined as game-play skill, as well as skill at handling people, keeping tournaments fun and fair, and aiding in Pokémon research. Professors are rewarded for their skills through exclusive Professor-only events, the Professor Championship, and the Wizards Professor Challenge, as well as the opportunity to participate in playtesting as needed.
It is through the recognition and training of these three characteristics that you can become a Pokémon Professor. The Pokémon community needs your skills, maturity, and prowess to continue on into the future. Thank you, in advance, for your help.
Michael Gills (Master Trainer Mike)
Pokémon Professor Program Administrator
[all emphasis, mine]
Just some food for thought. Locking the topic...
Edit: upon reconsideration, and requests from the professors who posted to this thread, I'm going to move this to the Professor Forum.
[ June 11, 2002, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: SD_PokeMom ]
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Master Professor/Tournament Organizer/Pokémon League Gym Leader,
Adventure Games and Comics, Poway, CA
Nothing endures in this world. Everything changes according to karma. But, like the ocean, underneath the restless existance of the countless waves there is one boundless stillness that embraces and gives life to all the moving waves. Namuamidabutsu...
From: San Diego, CA --location of WCSTS-2001 and West Stadium Challenge 2002 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Lugia909
Member # 1997
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posted June 11, 2002 08:02 PM
I've been reading this with considerable interest, as it regards a subject which I find to be perhaps the most problematic of all of issues facing this game at present. It's also, for far too many players, an issue which does not get the proper scrutiny.
I think I can give a very compelling argument why all of this supposedly 'part of the game' stuff must stop. It concerns a principle known as the "Broken Window Syndrome".
The "Broken Window Syndrome" concept precludes that if small detrimental changes occur, this will give tacit permission for larger ones, and larger still, and so on until a state of extreme degeneration has been reached. The name comes from the idea that one broken window showing in a building will give people the idea to break more, and so on.
With attitudes such as 'trashtalk is part of the game', etc, we have some of these broken windows already in place. And as has been seen, these lead further toward more attitudinal problems, such as the whole '1337' belligerence syndrome, hostile behavior toward 'rand0ms', etc. And yes, this game has even tipped over into violent outbursts at times, sadly. Ultimately, this sort of nonsense makes people leave Leagues, diminishes tourney participation, and makes people give up the game altogether. Why do something unpleasant...even if you love it, right?
So people leave. They're just 'n00bz' and 'rand0mz', right? Well...maybe. But some seasoned players can and have left, also, due to the same sort of reasons and general disgust. At any rate, NO ONE should be leaving, should be compelled to leave, should even have a reason for leaving that comes from sportsmanship issues, period.
Some people think they have a right to do as they please in this game. I've even seen lame attempts to banty the First Amendment of the US Constitution around by some rather uninformed types as an 'excuse' to commit all of the ill behavior they please. Hate to tell ya...but that's not what Tom, George, Alex, John, Ben, and the rest of 'em had in mind with that Bill of Rights jazz. Fact is, if you're going to play this game, you do so as something of an 'ambassador' of this game, especially if you hold a title or a high DCI ranking. You are Pokemon's 'face-it-shows-the-world'. And if that face is attached to someone who's insisting on being a total jackass, then it paints ALL of us, and the GAME, with that same jackassish color.
When you boil it all down, you get back to the point that THIS...MUST...STOP. Simply put. Otherwise, when/if this game gets abandoned and discarded because it's not fun to play 'those guys' anymore, those of you who made all of these unreasonable demands will definitely have yourselves to blame as the cause for Pokemon's demise. And no...that's NOT all that farfetched. It's more plausible than you'd think.
I think it's time to start reining-in this mess. It's harming the game...and if you're a responsible player who loves Pokemon as much as the rest of us, that's not what you'd want to do, right? Let's give the whole 1337 mindset the heave-ho...and if there's some people who can't, perhaps we should heave them over the side as well. We could stand to lose a few who won't play nice in order to get many more in or back who will, IMHO.
From: Greater Metropolitan Rankin, IL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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