Greed and Bad Attitudes

[csponsler]

I've been playing trading card games since 1999. (Pokemon, Dragonball Z, Magic: the Gathering, World of Warcraft, etc. I've also played a ton of miniature games as well that have trading elements: Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Axis & Allies Minis, etc)

...and in my youth I got ripped off, it happened. At the time I was very happy with my trades and it took me literally years and years later to understand what had happened. In retrospect I just sort of look back and laugh, yeah I was an idiot for trading 1st Edition Base Set stuff for Gym Leader crap back in the day because I thought Gym Leader Pokemon were "cool" but at the end of the day I was still quite happy. I'm 22 years old now and a much more intelligent trader these days and I can owe that to learning from my mistakes, not from being coddled and having my trades approved.

Granted if you have something ungodly malicious going on at your League like a Master trading a Junior a handful of commons for Lv.X/Primes/Legends...then I wholeheartedly support some sort of action. If you really care that much, don't make League members come through you for a trade, instead try to educate them in the value of cards and have your players look out for one another. Pokemon isn't such a huge community that the questionable people can't be pointed out almost immediately.

I hope you realize your being very hypocritical right here.:nonono:

 

[Leaf]

I think this kind of trading is almost a necessary evil, or whatever the phrase is.

I got ripped off a lot when I first started. I did not know I was getting ripped off at the time, but now that I do, it's made me a bit of a better trader. It's all an experience. Also, from most of my experiences, most kids know they are getting ripped off and dont care because they're just in it for the fun of it.

People fall down, and they get back up, no big deal.

 

[ugly psyducky]

The behavior of bad people often causes us to make laws and rules that limit our freedom. 9/11 is a classical example.

At our league, we take a more passive approach to trading. I warn everyone one upfront that inappropriate trades may result in expulsion. That caveat has been sufficient for us, but I can understand how it might not be sufficient for other leagues.

I often trade sealed boosters for cards I need. My store owner and PTO has no problem with that. Sometimes, I end up on the better end of the trade, sometimes not.

OK, I have a HUGE problem with this type of this trading, particularly when its the older player trading a Junior player. This almost always leads to a case of buyers remorse :

"Here kid I'll give you X packs for this Lvl X card"

Kid is like a crow who can't resist the shiny object. Rip / Rip / Rip and there's nothing in the packs, now you have a dejected kid. And this is the best case scenerio. This is prototypical gambling behavior, and there's a reason we prevent kids from gambling because it is extremely easy for them to greatly over-estimate the size of the potential reward for a given cost.

Now I am going to note that you said sealed boosters. From this I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this means you take a sealed box and infront of the people you are trading with, you open the box, because bringing loose packs to league for trading brings up a completely different set of issues. We all know that you can open a box, knowing the pull ratio, open until you've depleted those cards and then place the other packs to the side. Trading for depleted packs is absolutely anti-SOTG, period and giving the difficulty in ensuring that such trades are on the level makes them unacceptable IMO.

I actually got into the game because my eldest kid who was 6 (he's now 11) at the time got ripped off, and I thought I'd educate myself on what those silly little cards were all about. So I'm not going to dispute that being ripped off is part of the game, but there are definitely casulties out there that lost their interest because of predatory behaviour. I have no problem with shrewd trading among equals but trading between experienced/older individuals and younger players -- this requires some form of regulation.

 

[Squidwina]

Again, advising players on trades, is one thing, but to not allow a trade where both parties are happy is somewhat silly.

You're misunderstanding how the rule is applied.

As I said above, at our league, we do not disallow trades.

We try to make sure that trades are fair. And we try to make sure that kids understand what the value of the cards are, in terms of playability and sometimes cash value.

To use your example--if some kid really really wants that Wailord, he's allowed to give up his Claydol for it. The other person has to throw in other cards to even things up.

As a LL, you can stop that trade for 1 day, but the next day they would just trade the claydol away anyways.

Some would. Some wouldn't.

Over the years, I have taken the attitude that certain league players are just waiting for those cards to be taken from them.
....
As much as I try to warn kids from trading core cards, they still do. "Why don't you have Roseanne's"... "oh because I traded them." And if you traded them a pair to help them, next week you find out that those kids traded those Roseanne's away and now they don't have any again.

I hear you, and agree that this is REALLY frustrating. (And it's even worse when the kid has a Roseanne's or a league Uxie in his binder and not in his deck, refuses to put it in his deck, and blames his losses on bad luck. But I digress...)

But you can still try and ensure that the kid gets something with some value in return for that Roseanne's, even if it's things that you and I would consider worthless because they're unplayable.

This is a freedom thing, when people say YOU ought to do this, and WE SHOULD MAKE THEM DO THIS, it is anti-Freedom.

Anti-freedom? You've got to be kidding me.

Outside of league, people can make any trade they want.

At league, they have to follow the rules, which include no swearing, no open beverages on the table, and no trades without approval.

(Or are you going to tell me that my LL is anti-freedom because he doesn't let some kid keep an open can of coke in the play area?)

 

[SteveP]

OK, I have a HUGE problem with this type of this trading, particularly when its the older player trading a Junior player. This almost always leads to a case of buyers remorse :

"Here kid I'll give you X packs for this Lvl X card"

Kid is like a crow who can't resist the shiny object. Rip / Rip / Rip and there's nothing in the packs, now you have a dejected kid. And this is the best case scenerio. This is prototypical gambling behavior, and there's a reason we prevent kids from gambling because it is extremely easy for them to greatly over-estimate the size of the potential reward for a given cost.

Now I am going to note that you said sealed boosters. From this I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this means you take a sealed box and infront of the people you are trading with, you open the box, because bringing loose packs to league for trading brings up a completely different set of issues. We all know that you can open a box, knowing the pull ratio, open until you've depleted those cards and then place the other packs to the side. Trading for depleted packs is absolutely anti-SOTG, period and giving the difficulty in ensuring that such trades are on the level makes them unacceptable IMO.

I actually got into the game because my eldest kid who was 6 (he's now 11) at the time got ripped off, and I thought I'd educate myself on what those silly little cards were all about. So I'm not going to dispute that being ripped off is part of the game, but there are definitely casulties out there that lost their interest because of predatory behaviour. I have no problem with shrewd trading among equals but trading between experienced/older individuals and younger players -- this requires some form of regulation.

You're being way too cynical about trading sealed boosters for cards.

1. What's the difference between "gambling" away $$$ for a random booster or trading away comparably-valued cards for the same?

2. You've incorrectly elevated or reduced the "value" of a sealed booster based on after-knowledge. By your same logic, we could claim TPCi is not following SOTG when they sell us sealed boosters that don't meet our $$$ expected value.

3. Your cynical comment about depleting-the-goods shows how the predatory behavior of a few degenerates can taint how some people view the normal world.

4. If others differ from what you feel is equitable, somehow they've violated SOTG or are unethical.

Whenever I buy a sealed box, I open everything. The only sealed boosters I trade are those I get from promo blisters or from prize/staff support when I already have way too many cards from those sets. It's absolutely random.

Anyway, my PTO is a store owner. I would never trade sealed boosters at his store without his permission because it could potentially impact his business. But, he's given me his blessing, and I find it to be a very fair and equitable way to trade with kids. Heck, even some of the adults like it.

Don't be so cynical. :nonono:

ADDED COMMENT

Perhaps it wasn't proper for me to say "sometimes, I end up with the better deal, sometimes not." I understand how that can be viewed negatively. At the moment the trade occurs, the trade is equitable. Just like there's no implied guarantee when you buy a sealed booster, there's no guarantee when trading for the same. I always make sure kids understand this. And, you know what? Kids already seem to know that.

BTW, I usually only trade boosters for holes in my collection or 4-set, cards that most kids (players or not) don't want anyway. "One man's junk is another man's treasure." :thumb:

ADDED COMMENT

@ squidwina. I'm with SLOW DECK on this issue, to an extent. Trades should be monitored, kids should be advised and educated, but in-the-end, if both parties are happy, why should a gym leader change or halt the deal? That's not just anti-freedom -- that's totalitarian.

 

[richkid50000]

well heres my small info on this.

when i just started in mid july i went to a league for the first time. one of the people there had a Luxray GL(regular). i knew the X was worth a lot so i tried to get it. in the end i got it but it was a complete ripoff on me. i lost a charizard and a bunch of other stuff. so well now that i have found gym and beach i know the values more

that same person that i traded with is now my friend. i am 14 so i am basically in the same age group that gets greedy over cards.

i went to a league and really wanted claydols. i got one from the Ll and one from another person. then i traded with the LL for some more.

as for my normal league that same friend that ripped me off did the same to others:

he traded a palkia X tin for a gengar X when it was worth a lot. then the kids parent asked around if it was a good trade. 3 of us said no(including me). so then we convinced him to either add mroe to the trade or trade back. he didnt want mroe so he traded back. my friend was really mad at me for awhile. however you have to "lay down the law"

at PR's:

This was a bad day for me so some of my trades i wont list........
this family that comes to league came to it. one of then had donphan prime and the other had gatr Prime. once i saw that i told their parent to NOT let them trade that no matter what. she listened for now. hopefully if league happened tonight she remembered. (i couldnt go)

their is also another person there. he is personally really annoying to me. he has wanted my Luxray X for so many weeks its not even funny. i waved it in front of his face just to annoy him. but at PR's one kid pulled alph lithograph. he wanted it so he tried to trade a gardy X for it. i jumped right in there saying i wanted it. then i told the kid that the litho was going to be worth alot. so he didnt trade.

personally for me i would say have a policy of trades go through a few trusted people so they know if its a good deal or not. we have about 33% of each for juniors/seniors/masters. then we have a group of VG players. so its incredibly varied every week. as with PR's now ending juniors will have good prime and legends. masters who like to take advantage of them will go for it. so then a bunch of kids get "good cards" for actual good cards. but thats just my view and personal stories.

 

[Squidwina]

@ squidwina. I'm with SLOW DECK on this issue, to an extent. Trades should be monitored, kids should be advised and educated, but in-the-end, if both parties are happy, why should a gym leader change or halt the deal? That's not just anti-freedom -- that's totalitarian.

Are you seriously telling me that kids in your league let themselves get ripped off if you tell them they're being ripped off?

That if some kid runs a trade by you and you say "you know, you could get a lot more for that Claydol," that the kid is going to say "no, I only want the Wailord" instead of saying to the other kid "so, what else have you got?"

Maybe the kids at my league are savvier than the kids at yours, but they're not "happy with a deal" that's a bad deal for them.


ETA: Nobody expects experienced/knowledgeable players to run trades by LLs. And the LLs don't police the table to make sure all trades are being approved. People follow the rule because they like the rule.

 

[SteveP]

Are you seriously telling me that kids in your league let themselves get ripped off if you tell them they're being ripped off?

That if some kid runs a trade by you and you say "you know, you could get a lot more for that Claydol," that the kid is going to say "no, I only want the Wailord" instead of saying to the other kid "so, what else have you got?"

Maybe the kids at my league are savvier than the kids at yours, but they're not "happy with a deal" that's a bad deal for them.

At our league, we educate, then let the kids make their own decision. Certainly, we let new kids know that Uxies, Claydols, and LuxrayLvX's are worth more than a straight-across rarity trade. But that's where we stop.

That's where our league differs from yours, I suppose. We don't dictate -- we educate. Free agency is not supressed. :tongue:

Here again, the core of someone's thinking relies on the cynical attitute that traders try to rip each other off. Why so cynical?

 

[Alazor]

I think trading can definitely vary from league to league. Maybe where trading is "more competitive" you get a lot of back and forth. I'll trade for this and this, but then I want this... and the list goes on. Trades and counter trades. And then end up in a different league and then they're like yeah sure I'll take that trade with you. It can completely catch you off gaurd. I hope someone knows what I'm talking about. But bad trades can literally cause players to quit. Maybe not always being the person being ripped off.

 

[SLOW DECK]

Let's clarify hear, A win win trade is when both people get what they want, and people gave up what they think was of value to get what they wanted. Everyone learns from good and bad trades. I think everyone here on the GYM should be those who give fair trade value and fair advise to new players.

I agree with everyone who says we should encourage fair values from vet's to newbie's, but that could be 4 rare candies for that new player for a New Prime pokemon. The rare candies for players who have none is gold, even though that older player might have 20 of them. So be it.

Again, the hard line approving of trades and running the league is a slipperly slope. If someone want's to do it in their league, fine, but I don't want to do that. Make a few mistakes gives people expensive educations. I know I have had many expensive educational experiences in my life, pokemon is a great game that kids can do without the nets.

 

[thephoenix]

I'm surprised one of the most objective but very true posts here has almost been completely ignored. Value IS in the eye of the beholder. I remember being younger when Pokemon came out and I made some trades that would seem like a rip off from a third party perspective but I traded what I had and didn't use for what I needed. Even just recently, I traded a Gengar Lv X for 4 holo raichus from older sets. Was the value the same? Not even close. Did I get "ripped" if you count up general value? Yeah, I did. But I wanted those Raichus, I had no need for the Gengar, and got exactly what I wanted. I've had people scoff at the trade I made and I still couldn't care. I got my Raichus, I'm happy.

The fact that people want to have league leaders and professors check every single trade may sound good in theory but would just be tedious and difficult to control. Do I think that ripping off kids by "lying" or "coercion" is right? No, but I had a kid that BADLY wanted my RH Energy Gain and RH Arceus Charizard and offered me a Raichu Lv X and 2 Lv Max's for it. I needed those three cards for my deck, he needed those two for his. He saw value in what he was getting, and so did I. Again, from an outsiders perspective, it could be seen as I got the better deal, but he made the offer and I was happy to accept. I've traded with everyone from the age of 8 to 63 (we got some older guys that come to our tourneys out here) and if both sides are happy, as long as there is no forcing, lying, or anything shady going on, who is to say it's right to step in and go "let me see this trade...no, this is unfair."

Again, you have to sit down and ask yourself in a trade...what are these cards worth to ME. An HGSS Raichu is worth more to me than any Lv X or Prime card, because I really need them for my deck. Some people may be trying to complete collections. It doesn't matter the reasons, it just matters that both sides are happy. If you step in and say "wait, this seems a little uneven due to the general value" then THAT completely destroys the good spirit of the game. Trading is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game and if both sides are happy with a trade, why should there need to be a middle man?

Now, if someone is purposely pushing a kid to do a trade, that's wrong in every way...however, I don't know about you, but most kids at the leagues I go to are MORE strict about the cards they have and the trades they make than seniors and masters are. Even I was that way when I was younger...you get used to learning values because the cards tend to mean a great deal more when you're younger, so you want more for them. Most times with Seniors or Masters I go "you want this, I want these, sound like a fair trade" and the answer is "sure". With Juniors its "you want this, I want these, sound like a fair trade" and I spend the next 10 minutes waiting to get a yes or no as they scour my binder for more things for me to throw in. It's actually kind of humorous at times too.

 

[EricDent]

Whenever there is a question about a trade, I would suggest getting somebody else involved in it.

When I trade, I am usually just trying to collect the cards for a set. Not really to play competively.

If they want more of a certain card, then tell them to earn it through league play. Or to buy some packs.

If the kids keep doing this kind of thing, then you could always warn them about it. If they keep doing
it then you do have the right to ban/suspend them from the league.

 

[afstandopleren]

I'm surprised one of the most objective but very true posts here has almost been completely ignored. Value IS in the eye of the beholder. I remember being younger when Pokemon came out and I made some trades that would seem like a rip off from a third party perspective but I traded what I had and didn't use for what I needed. Even just recently, I traded a Gengar Lv X for 4 holo raichus from older sets. Was the value the same? Not even close. Did I get "ripped" if you count up general value? Yeah, I did. But I wanted those Raichus, I had no need for the Gengar, and got exactly what I wanted. I've had people scoff at the trade I made and I still couldn't care. I got my Raichus, I'm happy.

The fact that people want to have league leaders and professors check every single trade may sound good in theory but would just be tedious and difficult to control. Do I think that ripping off kids by "lying" or "coercion" is right? No, but I had a kid that BADLY wanted my RH Energy Gain and RH Arceus Charizard and offered me a Raichu Lv X and 2 Lv Max's for it. I needed those three cards for my deck, he needed those two for his. He saw value in what he was getting, and so did I. Again, from an outsiders perspective, it could be seen as I got the better deal, but he made the offer and I was happy to accept. I've traded with everyone from the age of 8 to 63 (we got some older guys that come to our tourneys out here) and if both sides are happy, as long as there is no forcing, lying, or anything shady going on, who is to say it's right to step in and go "let me see this trade...no, this is unfair."

Again, you have to sit down and ask yourself in a trade...what are these cards worth to ME. An HGSS Raichu is worth more to me than any Lv X or Prime card, because I really need them for my deck. Some people may be trying to complete collections. It doesn't matter the reasons, it just matters that both sides are happy. If you step in and say "wait, this seems a little uneven due to the general value" then THAT completely destroys the good spirit of the game. Trading is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game and if both sides are happy with a trade, why should there need to be a middle man?

Now, if someone is purposely pushing a kid to do a trade, that's wrong in every way...however, I don't know about you, but most kids at the leagues I go to are MORE strict about the cards they have and the trades they make than seniors and masters are. Even I was that way when I was younger...you get used to learning values because the cards tend to mean a great deal more when you're younger, so you want more for them. Most times with Seniors or Masters I go "you want this, I want these, sound like a fair trade" and the answer is "sure". With Juniors its "you want this, I want these, sound like a fair trade" and I spend the next 10 minutes waiting to get a yes or no as they scour my binder for more things for me to throw in. It's actually kind of humorous at times too.

Quoted for truth. Remember people, they are only pieces of card board with glitters in the end. If you are willing to 'pay' some other piece of paper for it with some sparkles, colors and numbers on it (aka money) then it's all your choice because you (somehow) believe it is its value and you are willing to spend those hard earned pieces of paper for more cardboard because you think you need it at all costs.

 

[dave321]

My opinion is very similar to StevePs and some other users'.

I think that the OPTION to ask for a comparison in value is vital to trading but it shouldn't be universally enforced. I'm not even talking about older kids, I do mean in trading between younger and older kids as well.

I think the example that speaks best is something like this:
Say for example I'm offering a kid ABC Lv. X for his XYZ Lv. X. Currently, ABC is worth about 10$ and XYZ is worth about 20$. However, I know for a fact XYZ is coming out in a tin in the near future or will otherwise significantly decrease in value for some other factor (a card that is being released that will become a staple will counter it, etc.). I'm only trading ABC because I don't want to trade a lot for a card that will significantly decrease in value. A league leader that might not be privvy to something like this forcing me to trade almost double the value of my card for something like XYZ is completely ridiculous. In this case I AM offering a fair deal and it would be the ignorance of the party that says "TRADE FORBIDDEN" that creates a problem.

It is impossible for one person to know all values and know how they will fluctuate. If people want to put their faith in you and use you as a moderator it should definitely be permitted, encouraged even, but it should not be infalliably enforced. Just like I ask my friends what the think of trade before I do it or they ask me, it's up to they player to investigate and ask for help. I think I might be just as upset if I was on the opposite side, and lost out on a trade because the other person didn't want to increase the value so I lost out on getting, say, that 200HP Wailord for my extra 80HP Claydol.

I know it goes along with the whole "MY LEAGUE MY RULES SO GIT OUT IF YOU DONT LIKE EM" thing but I'm just trying to say, keep an open mind that there are other factors than current value. If parties want to trade and neither had the interest to search out a moderator for their trade then I think it's wrong to intervene.

 

[NoPoke]

Perspective matters. The league rules about trades aren't to ensure that trades are fair or equitable. Rather they are to ensure that trades are not so grossly unfair that either side can justly feel agrieved or ripped off. As much as possible you want an informed decision by both sides, by having such there is much less chance of the trade going sour.

 

[vegitalian]

I find that trading is a skill in Pokemon that everyone should use (this applies to Juniors, Masters, and Seniors). If a Junior understands that they need a card for their deck and it is worth a lot then why is it wrong to trade whatever they want for it? Now that statement may seem immoral but, who decided that Luxray GL Lv.X is a 40 dollar card? Who decided that card [insert w/e here] is the new OMG ITS THE BDIF!!!1!!111!!??? If I need a Dialga G badly and little Tommy needs my RH Voltorb badly (full holo deck/collection/etc.) then they are now equal value on different terms.

Everyone values a card differently!

I value playable cards (Spiritombs, Dialga G, Luxray GL Lv.X, Uxie, ...) higher because I like doing well at tournaments. I will trade cards that are worth more in value but, less in playability (I will trade garbage Lv.Xs for Uxie/Claydol). I only trade for what I need, want, and what I can flip to make money/get a card I want. Throughout my ways of trading everyone is happy and I am happy. This is an example of trading well.

If a junior trades a Quagsire HG/SS for a Claydol then that is fine too. If that junior desired that Quagsire and would trade a Claydol for it, both parties are happy. As a competitive player, I wouldn't do that above trade but, sometimes you have to trade like that to get what you want. If everyone is happy then nobody got "ripped off".

Also, you can talk to your newer players by teaching them trading ideas, etc. This could be a dedicated League day and you could even invite the parents. You could give good advice and resources for parents/kids so that they will never fell "ripped off".


Just my 2 cents.

~Zach

They are only ripped off in the first place because people view other people's cards as fair game.

If someone doesn't have a concept of money, you could easily trade a 1 dollar bill to them for a 20 dollar bill, but at the end of the day, how does that make you feel? Now picture that person being a 7-8 year old and you a grown man (or at least a teenager). This is EXACTLY the same, as you could eBay your crappy Level X's for $1 each and some of their better cards for $20 each.

My belief on the matter is negligence vs. taking advantage. If two players are new and trading cards, they might make some pretty unfair trades, but at least no one knows better.

What taking advantage involves is knowingly ripping people off, claiming that a card is worth a lot when it is common knowledge that it isn't, lying by saying their good card is worth nothing (Feraligatr Prime HGSS ring any bells?), preying on the fact that the other party will make a less educated decision, and making sure no good players are around when you make the trade.

You certainly sugar coated your opinion Zach.

I agree with League Leaders making the decision to authorize trading with Juniors/Some Seniors. If you want to keep people playing the game, your best bet is to let them keep their good cards so that when they finally come to, they don't have to start from scratch. It's a deterrant when you can't play competitively because you traded your playset of Claydols away for a SR Articuno.

 

[SteveP]

Good comments by all those above. The only exception I have to the "helicopter" GL-attitude is the practice of authorizing or approving trades when kids are involved. I think it's very admirable for GLs to provide opinions and recommendations. IMO, that service is a must for any decent GL.

Nevertheless, I compare this to parenting. You teach your kid life-skills, then you often let them fly solo, providing tid-bits of advice as appropriate. There are plenty of "helicopter" parents out there. The only problem with this kind of parenting is when they can't occasionally hover off in the distance without swooping in to save their kid from stubbing their big toe. :smile:

 

[Squidwina]

Perspective matters. The league rules about trades aren't to ensure that trades are fair or equitable. Rather they are to ensure that trades are not so grossly unfair that either side can justly feel agrieved or ripped off. As much as possible you want an informed decision by both sides, by having such there is much less chance of the trade going sour.

That is exactly what I was getting at. Only you said it in many fewer words.

Why so cynical?

I'm not so cynical. I usually don't see people trying to rip each other off at my local league. If they want to make a very unbalanced trade, it's usually out of ignorance.

But there was one incident very close to when my son and I started playing that made a big impression on me. A older kid tried to trade my kid an MT Uxie for a LA Uxie. He tried to sell the MT Uxie as being better because it was a reverse holo. I had previously told my son to run any potential trades by me first. The other kid tried to stop him from doing that. Fortunately, my son stood up to him and showed me the trade, and by that time I definitely knew the difference between the two Uxies. I asked a few questions, and it was clear that the other kid was trying to put one over on my son.

I reported him to the league leader, who responded by making the rule, chastising the kid, and having a word with the kid's parents. I didn't necessarily expect that rule to be made and I certainly didn't ask for it, but the LL's strong reaction made a very good impression on me. If he had treated it as not such a big deal, I would have probably come away with a negative feeling about the league and by extension, the Pokemon community. ( I also would have ended up $25 poorer because we only had two Uxies between us at that point and I would have needed to replace the card.)

I think the key element here is that the other kid tried to prevent my son from running the trade by me. I think he was 10 or 11 and my son was only 6 at the time. It's very easy for a ten year old to railroad a 6 year old. Having the rule in place makes it easier for someone to stand up to a person that's aggressively trying to push a trade through.


SteveP: It seems like you're either making assumptions about how restrictive this kind of rule is and/or exaggerating in an effort to prove your point. Remember--it's up to the kids to seek out the LL or another knowledgeable adult to review a trade. Therefore, the helicopter parent analogy is flawed.

Besides, doing it this way IS teaching the kids "life skills." It's teaching them to do their research before making a deal.

 

[ryanvergel]

the problems i have to this are:

1. slippery slope- when is it no longer fair? when is it a rip off? at what point? at what age?
2. assumptions- one has to assume values for secondary-sale items, one has to assume playability and format rotations, and one has to assume personal value, which can combine to poor calculation and error. what are the values being used for cards? person to person resale? person to vendor resale? person as a vendor resale (eBay- garage sale, personal store), bulk resale (trading 20 holo energy for a Palkia G X), expected value (seeing DCE in JPN sets made its expected value rise dramatically, even though nothing had physically changed. after seeing the scans on the beach of the *** cards would you allow a kid to trade 2 DCE for a roseanne's? what about after we get english scans? what about after the set release?), etc. too many factors. one person can value a holon transceiver at 1 dollar (a little kid ignorant of its value- seeing a stupid trainer card), another five knowing they need it for their deck, and another at 10 because he knows he can sell it on ebay for 10 bucks. that is a pretty rare example, but over time, and with larger trades, discrepencies in values can be huge- when is the LL/advisor stepping out of bounds? possibly MISinforming?

when is it no longer one person getting a good deal and it becomes one person ripping another off? would we allow the trade of a dialga G for a charizard GS now but not a month before possible rotation (right before the price of a card 'might fall')? when is it no longer helping and assisting and becoming coddling, counter-productive and inhibiting?

i would rather SUGGEST to inexperienced players (of any age) that seeking a second opinion, especially from a legitimate individual, a league leader, might help prevent ridiculous ripoffs, and if they sought a second opinion from the LL it would be appropriate and perfectly fine. but taking it any further, and interrupting trades, etc. is just bad.

would you also do this 15 minutes before a tournament? during a tournament? if you saw a kid trade 3 RH claydols and 2 RH uxies for a tin mewtwo X would you step in at league? what about a side event? what about at a CC? before a CC? after a CC? lunch break? between rounds? it seems like at each time we can have different cases for jumping in/not jumping in, and this just shows the all too vague status of trading. its hard for me to see a mandation for approval as something completely great and sound when there is such an overwhelming number of variances and possibilities. i can definitely see the benefits in the act of advising on trades by LLs, however, i definitely think there are a lot of problems to the solution as presented.

 

[SLOW DECK]

I think the key element here is that the other kid tried to prevent my son from running the trade by me. I think he was 10 or 11 and my son was only 6 at the time. It's very easy for a ten year old to railroad a 6 year old. Having the rule in place makes it easier for someone to stand up to a person that's aggressively trying to push a trade through.

Pressuring is wrong.(I and others hit this before) .... But the other answer is that 6 year old shouldn't be allowed to trade the Uxie LA in the first place. If it would make you mad that your 6 year old makes a bad trade, don't let them trade, or only trade with a trade binder that you have your tradeable cards designate. If you have to approve the trade, doesn't that really mean you(we the parent) have to make the trade ultimately.

I say this because.....I personally have a rule that since Dad(me) finances our hobby, and I am a competitive player, and I do CARE, thus all trades are basically done with me. (If at all.) Since I have enough money for this hobby to buy a few boxes and e-bay cards for our family card collection, I don't bother much with trading because I don't want to trade for cards that I can more easily just get off of e-bay, and then I don't have any sort of guilt of getting someone's Claydol's that I knew where valuable. I am very good at identifying core cards and e-bay them at a good price before the market get's good at pricing them.

I am reminded often that this is a child's card game. Trading cards and the negotatition of those trades is a growing experience. For kid's with more limited resources, trading is the only way they are going to get cards and get a competitive decks. Good for them. Some kid's that can't figure out(or don't really care) which cards are needed for a competitive tournament deck so be it.

There is a league near our house where it is mostly dominated by NON-TOURNAMENT playing younger kids.( I haven't been there) By all accounts, the kid that go do enjoy that league, but many of their parent's don't take the next step and go to tournaments. Some of the older kids that I do know do go there and get many good cards from trades and such. Those older kids are competitive players and have limited resources for cards, and do have to rely on making trades to get there decks made.

The question is if they go and trade for spiritombs, for non competitive rare cards..., those spiritomb's might NEVER ever see there way into a non-competitive 8 yo players deck, is the world a worst place for it?

A violin is just pieces of wood and string, but needs a violinist to bring out the music. It is same thing with good cards. If the players who have certain cards can't understand the value (not money, but worth in a deck), and someone else does appreciate there use in a deck and trades something that the other player want's to aquire it. That person now with that resource now win's tournament because of that trade, isn't the world a better place.

This is competition and capitalism versus socialism sort of analogy. The value creators create value by having a vision and acting upon it. They create value in this world that other didn't see or care to see. As long as transactions are done without undo pressure, it is good for those get those done, unless you happen to be one of the players that player beat because of him having that spiritomb. If you disagree with this, then you basically have to go to the extreme and say, everyone play with a starter deck, because by allowing someone to have better cards/deck than another is wrong.