Greed and Bad Attitudes

[MrsAforcer]

Hey, I don't post much on PokeGym unless my boyfriend-and-fellow-league-leader links me to a post that seems particularly interesting, but something has been concerning me as of late.

I grew up with Pokemon, and I never really played super competitively -- in fact, I didn't even know there was really "competitive' playing until just a year or so ago, and still I have very strong ties to the casual sort of play-for-fun style of battling. I don't discourage people from playing in hopes of winning, but I do kind of discourage doing so if the sense of fun has been lost. I think having fun (and making sure your opponent is having fun) are very key factors in playing Pokemon, and I think the moment you compromise this, there's really no point left in winning, much less playing at all.

Anyways, enough about me. As I mentioned earlier, my boyfriend and I run a league, and there's been some trouble with kids (I'm talking, like, under 11~13, here) getting very greedy over cards. Whether it be the new promo Claydols, or seeking out less informed kids to con them out of good cards, we have a few individuals that seem bent on obtaining certain cards and will cross quite a number of moral boundaries to get them.

I know this is a discussion that's been had quite a few times on PokeGym -- is it immoral for an older, more experienced player to trade a younger player that will never put a certain card to good use for said card, even if the kid does not benefit from the trade? My personal views on that in particular are a little situational, but in general, I beleive that as long as the kid is aware that the trade is lopsided and still wants to initiate it, it's fair game.

But then, my concern is younger children preying on other younger children -- children that have learned the ins and outs of Pokemon at a young age and are now delving into the darker side of trading to get what they want. I think it's sad that they're learning such cheap tricks at such a young age, and while I'd have no problem going up to a teenager or someone my age and talking to them about proper trade etiquette -- I really don't know how to deal with these kids.

Does PokeGym have any good advice for guiding younger kids that have gone astray back into the right direction? I really hate seeing people that exploit less experienced players, but this is kind of an all new circumstance in and of itself. How do you propose that my boyfriend and I approach this?

 

[niimou]

At a PR I just went to there was a rule that Juniors couldn't trade without either a parent's or the TO's permission. Not sure exactly the reasoning behind it, but perhaps you could implement something similar.

 

[MrsAforcer]

At a PR I just went to there was a rule that Juniors couldn't trade without either a parent's or the TO's permission. Not sure exactly the reasoning behind it, but perhaps you could implement something similar.

Well, we usually encourage this, but a lot of the time the parents are either not their or really don't know how the game works and what's good or not (i.e. "That shiny, new Quagsire from HGSS is much cooler looking than that plain, boring Claydol thing which isn't even shiny -- go ahead and trade it!").

 

[niimou]

: / I see what you mean. And to say that they have to go to okay with just the LL would be ANNOYING. I'm sorry ^^; Out of ideas here, but I'll keep thinking.

 

[EeveeLover]

The Leagues that I work at require all trades be approved.

This allows us to make sure that both players no what they are giving / getting out of the deal. We do this to make sure that no one is getting a bad deal, unless they know they are and still want to make the trade.

We had to start doing this because of kids and their parents taking advantage of other players.

No problems since and the problem traders left as a bonus.

 

[lilliwn]

even if the kid does not benefit from the trade

I do not have a stand on this matter. Just commenting..

Outcomes of a trade is perspective.
Quoting someone else once said, "A voluntary trade only occurs when both party feel that they are gaining from the trade." The 'benefit' differs depend on the individual.

To me, so as long as the trade is not being cohered, intimidated or otherwise forced to occur, i.e. voluntary, it's welcome. Same principle applies when a trade is being terminated (i.e. arbitrarily disallowed), both party are let-down.

(wherever happened to the 'free-trade' principle this world is supposedly thriving on? Personally I find the notion of "intervention is required because I think I know better than those involved" to be frankly quite ignorant. No offense to anybody...as this thought occurs to myself often as well)

 

[Heatherdu]

We do not require that trades go through the leaders at league but we offer it and encourage it to new players. As a LL or prof or judge or even just concerned player, speak up. That's the best strategy. I stepped in at a prerelease yesterday because a swarm of older kids were trying to get a little kindergartner to trade his primes, etc. Now I don't know that anyone was trying to trade unfairly but I'm sure the little one was not as educated on the new set as the SRs. I simply said that he could not trade until his dad was done in the MA round and could approve.

 

[PokePop]

(wherever happened to the 'free-trade' principle this world is supposedly thriving on? Personally I find the notion of "intervention is required because I think I know better than those involved" to be frankly quite ignorant. No offense to anybody...as this thought occurs to myself often as well)

When a kid is going to trade three cards that are essential to their deck for a "tin" Level X, and you know they're going to complain to you every league for the next month until the quit that they can "never win", I don't find it ignorant to intervene.
Kids are not allowed to sign contracts for a reason. They don't have the maturity to make good, informed decisions.

 

[ugly psyducky]

I know this is a discussion that's been had quite a few times on PokeGym -- is it immoral for an older, more experienced player to trade a younger player that will never put a certain card to good use for said card, even if the kid does not benefit from the trade? My personal views on that in particular are a little situational, but in general, I beleive that as long as the kid is aware that the trade is lopsided and still wants to initiate it, it's fair game.

But then, my concern is younger children preying on other younger children -- children that have learned the ins and outs of Pokemon at a young age and are now delving into the darker side of trading to get what they want. I think it's sad that they're learning such cheap tricks at such a young age, and while I'd have no problem going up to a teenager or someone my age and talking to them about proper trade etiquette -- I really don't know how to deal with these kids.

Does PokeGym have any good advice for guiding younger kids that have gone astray back into the right direction? I really hate seeing people that exploit less experienced players, but this is kind of an all new circumstance in and of itself. How do you propose that my boyfriend and I approach this?

I lopped of discussion on the first part of your thread, because I think its been well answered. But the second point where you are asking for advice on dealing with younger kids in your league who are "crossing over to the dark site", that point bears heavily on a fundamental aspect of the game which is building the new player base that has respect for the Core Values of the Game.

The only real advice I have for you here, is build relationships with your younger players so they see you as a role model. From this position you will have considerable power over the way in which they conduct themselves. Make sure you inform their parents of behaviour that is undesirable, such as taking advantage of younger players in trading -- most parents will certainly take action on this, but without knowledge of the game they might not recognize predatory type behaviour -- and finally watch out for the parents that actually condone/encourage this action, although it makes me sad to say it there are those who are old enough to know better. I'd go one stage further than Eevee Lover who said it was a bonus when rules he made cause those players to vacate the venue -- it's the role of the Leauge leader to put those rules in place so those players aren't there to detract from what this game is about.

Best of Luck -- and kudos to you for taking the time to ask for help in this area -- hope my advice helps a little.

Ugly Out

 

[Skitty]

Well there haven't been any problems with rip-off trades at my League, but I thought that I would give my oppinion anyway.

At a PR I just went to there was a rule that Juniors couldn't trade without either a parent's or the TO's permission. Not sure exactly the reasoning behind it, but perhaps you could implement something similar.

There is one little kid at my League and his father won't let him trade unless he is there to aprove it. There is one problem with that though, the father gets his card prices based on the buy-it-now prices on ebay (not the auctions) and he won't let his kid trade anything that isn't one card for one card. And on top of that the father is only there in the last 10 minutes of the League. So because of all of that no-one ever trades with him anymore. It's kind of sad really. :frown:

 

[smacktack15]

I find that trading is a skill in Pokemon that everyone should use (this applies to Juniors, Masters, and Seniors). If a Junior understands that they need a card for their deck and it is worth a lot then why is it wrong to trade whatever they want for it? Now that statement may seem immoral but, who decided that Luxray GL Lv.X is a 40 dollar card? Who decided that card [insert w/e here] is the new OMG ITS THE BDIF!!!1!!111!!??? If I need a Dialga G badly and little Tommy needs my RH Voltorb badly (full holo deck/collection/etc.) then they are now equal value on different terms.

Everyone values a card differently!

I value playable cards (Spiritombs, Dialga G, Luxray GL Lv.X, Uxie, ...) higher because I like doing well at tournaments. I will trade cards that are worth more in value but, less in playability (I will trade garbage Lv.Xs for Uxie/Claydol). I only trade for what I need, want, and what I can flip to make money/get a card I want. Throughout my ways of trading everyone is happy and I am happy. This is an example of trading well.

If a junior trades a Quagsire HG/SS for a Claydol then that is fine too. If that junior desired that Quagsire and would trade a Claydol for it, both parties are happy. As a competitive player, I wouldn't do that above trade but, sometimes you have to trade like that to get what you want. If everyone is happy then nobody got "ripped off".

Also, you can talk to your newer players by teaching them trading ideas, etc. This could be a dedicated League day and you could even invite the parents. You could give good advice and resources for parents/kids so that they will never fell "ripped off".


Just my 2 cents.

~Zach

 

[SD PokeMom]

The Leagues that I work at require all trades be approved.

This allows us to make sure that both players no what they are giving / getting out of the deal. We do this to make sure that no one is getting a bad deal, unless they know they are and still want to make the trade.

We had to start doing this because of kids and their parents taking advantage of other players.

No problems since and the problem traders left as a bonus.

what he said...

i also require trades to be approved by a LL before they are final. and i look *very* hard when a trade is being made by local players who only show up at my league for trading time, don't participate in any way otherwise, and only trade with younger kids. i don't play that game, thank you very much...and the parents appreciate it.

it's your league, you can enforce these rules to protect your players.

jmho
'mom

 

[TheGeneral]

Hey, I don't post much on PokeGym unless my boyfriend-and-fellow-league-leader links me to a post that seems particularly interesting, but something has been concerning me as of late.

I grew up with Pokemon, and I never really played super competitively -- in fact, I didn't even know there was really "competitive' playing until just a year or so ago, and still I have very strong ties to the casual sort of play-for-fun style of battling. I don't discourage people from playing in hopes of winning, but I do kind of discourage doing so if the sense of fun has been lost. I think having fun (and making sure your opponent is having fun) are very key factors in playing Pokemon, and I think the moment you compromise this, there's really no point left in winning, much less playing at all.

Anyways, enough about me. As I mentioned earlier, my boyfriend and I run a league, and there's been some trouble with kids (I'm talking, like, under 11~13, here) getting very greedy over cards. Whether it be the new promo Claydols, or seeking out less informed kids to con them out of good cards, we have a few individuals that seem bent on obtaining certain cards and will cross quite a number of moral boundaries to get them.

I know this is a discussion that's been had quite a few times on PokeGym -- is it immoral for an older, more experienced player to trade a younger player that will never put a certain card to good use for said card, even if the kid does not benefit from the trade? My personal views on that in particular are a little situational, but in general, I beleive that as long as the kid is aware that the trade is lopsided and still wants to initiate it, it's fair game.

But then, my concern is younger children preying on other younger children -- children that have learned the ins and outs of Pokemon at a young age and are now delving into the darker side of trading to get what they want. I think it's sad that they're learning such cheap tricks at such a young age, and while I'd have no problem going up to a teenager or someone my age and talking to them about proper trade etiquette -- I really don't know how to deal with these kids.

Does PokeGym have any good advice for guiding younger kids that have gone astray back into the right direction? I really hate seeing people that exploit less experienced players, but this is kind of an all new circumstance in and of itself. How do you propose that my boyfriend and I approach this?

Just tell Tay to lay down the law :lol:

 

[MrsAforcer]

Thank you so much, everyone, your comments are greatly appreciated. I'll forward this thread to our league's leader later tonight and he can skim it over for some tips. We may have to employ some of these ideas you all have had.

Just tell Tay to lay down the law :lol:

I did, but he doesn't want to make waves, and I don't blame him. After an incident yesterday, I gave him my opinion on the matter on the way back home, and he said hat he felt so cajoled into doing what the kids were asking of him that he just wanted to pacify them (they were asking for him to give them extra Claydols since they had finished their first card, and commented that if they couldn't get any, "they were wasting their time there" -- the statement in particular kind of hurt, and I told them then and there that if that was the kind of attitude they were going to hold, then we weren't going to force them to stay there).

To be honest, I probably would have done the same thing in the same situation, because both Taylor and I are very eager to please others. We like seeing our league members happy and we like knowing that people look forward to coming. Plus, the feeling is amplified when it's a child asking for the favour, because it's a lot harder to say "no." A lot of the time they have either been spoiled or know that if they keep pushing they will get their way, and won't quite until you comply. With older kids, they usually understand when enough is a enough and stand down, but kids are a little more blind to these social cues and are far more driven by their own selfish intentions. Not to say that they are malicious, they simply don't really understand consequences and stuff (or else feign that they don't which is a whole 'nother story).

I guess we just need to learn how to be a little more firm with the kids. It's not that they don't respect us, it's just that we're incredibly generous to them and lenient. Plus, it's kind of scary to have to "parent" a child or group of children if their parent is gone and then potentially have their parent come back the next week reprimanding you to "not parent their kids." I guess I'm just kind of afraid of the liability issues here (not in the legal sense, but just in a politically correct sense) -- unlike many leaders, Taylor and I are only 19, and neither of us really feel like we're in a position to reprimand these kids about morality and fairness.

I will mention to him that we may have to intervene through the parents, though. We just need to be a little more courageous, that's all. I'll do my best to give him a little more confidence if I can.

However, I think I speak for him too when I say that we don't want to make our league a "locked down" environment; we don't want to place restrictions and failsafes on people's trades and behaviour because it causes a vibe of distrust throughout the whole league. Not to say we want it to go completely ungoverned, but I guess it's just sad that we may have to enforce some of these rules. I always thought our league was a very secure, fair place.

But I guess for the safety of everyone we may have to make some changes...

 

[EeveeLover]

Making and enforcing rules at your League is what makes it the secure, fair place that you want it to be.

If you allow players to be cheated on trades, you will lose those players. All you will have left in the end will be the bad traders and when there is no one left for them to prey upon, they will leave as well.

If you make some rules, to help protect your players, they will thank you in the long run. So will their parents.

 

[SD PokeMom]

again, agreeing with the previous post.

the league i run has been in continual existence since the 'fad' years under WotC: 70+ players a week, things stolen right and left every single week. how did it finally stop?

...we started enforcing rules. first and foremost was a rule...granted, this is likely not going to work for most game stores, and i modified it during the time we did meet in a game store....that required a parent or other responsible adult *in the store* during league time for any player under driving age. this dovetailed quite nicely with the bookstore chain's own rules about children being dropped off during their other kids' events.

the result? voila, whole groups of suspected troublemakers stopped showing up because they couldn't/wouldn't get a responsible adult to accompany them...and theft went down to nearly zero, immediately. not to mention the end to <10 y/os being dropped off alone...who were often seen 15-30 minutes AFTER league had ended at 7 pm still waiting outside for their parent to retrieve them =/

the parents whose kids had been previously victimized were very appreciative of the new requirements. those parents talked up the league with the parents of their kids' friends, which brought more players to the league...more than making up for the loss of the few bad apples.

when a game store hosted our league, the procedure was a bit different as 1) the store didn't mind drop-offs and 2) there really wasn't anything for the parents to do there, as opposed to the cafe or browsing available at borders.

so we allowed drop-offs IF the parents understood that doing so was a privilege and could be revoked for their child if they were a behavioral or other problem, if the parents left a cell or other number where they could be reached, and if the parents agreed to pick the kid up by the time league ended, which was also the store's close. for the most part, this worked well for us.

the rules are to make league a safe place for all, young and old. allowing the bad apples to roam unchecked in order to be 'friendly' is not going to keep those taken advantage of coming to your league. create your league rules within the SotG and enforce them fairly across the board: the good kids and families will appreciate it, and the sharks will move on to easier pickings.

ymmv; good luck!

jmho,
'mom

 

[poinko]

unlike many leaders, Taylor and I are only 19, and neither of us really feel like we're in a position to reprimand these kids about morality and fairness.

That really shouldn't matter. Whether you're 19 or 39, the kids are still coming to YOUR league, and it's their responsibility to follow the rules that YOU set, as much as it is your responsibility to make sure they're getting their promos and marks for their games.

I don't know how your league is set up (whether it's in a store or parents are there, etc), but you guys are pretty much "in charge", and the kids need to respect that you're going to be the one in charge.

That probably sounds a bit too harsh the way I put it, but it is something you have to remember. If there's a problem between two kids trading, it's going to be up to you to resolve it amicably.

Ugly and PokéMom's advice regarding this is great, as well.

And I would like to add, everything in this thread can be applied to the older players, as well. Don't feel like you're not allowed to apply rules to them just because they're older; they're still members of the League, and League rules apply to ALL League members.

 

[Pokeplayer]

At my Prereleases...I have a no trade clause until after the PR has ended....I also encourage the younger players when they get a really special card to be sure they tell their parent first abouty any trades for that card...At leagues, I had heard the LL or TO approve trades.......

If it comes down right to it....talk to the kids parents first.....in the long run.....if you had to ..ask the offending kids to leave........

 

[Kayle]

So, I used to be a little like this, and from my own ventures in correcting myself morally, I've noticed an interesting trend that I want to point out.

One of the younger kids at my league recently acquired a Luxray GL Lv. X. It was literally the only one I had ever seen except for the one I had traded for here on the 'gym (we're pretty backwash here). I was the only player who could really play it to its "full potential", so I wanted it, obviously. (It's not fair to say I'm the only one who could play it to its full potential, but that was my reasoning at the time, which I have been trying to do away with.)

Now, I told him that I wanted it, he said he was hesitant to trade it, and I said "Well, here, look at my binder. I'd be willing to trade quite a lot for it." He goes through and picks Infernape 4 X and Blaziken FB X. Decent deal, actually.

However, he was taking it kind of casually once he realized the selection of cards available to him. We started to make the trade, but I was being nagged by that moral fear that he didn't know what he was doing, so I stopped and gave him a short lecture about the value of Luxray - how it's one of the most playable cards in the format, it's worth more than these other two combined, etc etc. (I made sure to speak at his level of understanding though. He got it.)

He still didn't care.

It was actually a pretty good trade for both of us (I think), so it wasn't a big deal - but according to this, should I not have traded him? I was getting something very useful for some stuff that wasn't quite as useful in exchange, and he was giving it to me because he was ignorant to its use. I tried to educate him, but you can't educate people on this, really, can you?

If someone really doesn't believe that Claydol is all that useful, what are you going to do to tell them not to trade it? I mean, it only does 40 damage for 2 energy and has 80 HP. And that's a long, complicated-sounding Pokemon Power. It doesn't seem all that useful.

I like my League and I want all my players to improve now that promo claydols are out there, so I am rather concerned by this and I'm also just kind of curious as to the problems others are having.

 

[MrsAforcer]

Well, I've thought this all over a bit, and I'm going to try running the idea of making an announcement to the league next Sunday by Taylor. I don't want to come off as being overbearing, and I don't want to scare our members, but I think a simple, friendly reminder and an offering of guidance to the younger members is in order. I'll tell you all how it goes.

Thank you all for your advice, and please feel free to continue contributing your advice. If any of you have good ideas as to how to resent this, please feel free to speak up.