RULES UPDATE: Game two tie breaker changed. +3 Clarified
- Thread starter NoPoke
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Physics Squirrel
Active Member
While, this is true about Lost World decks, it is also true about decks trying to use any other win condition (as someone already pointed out).
There's another worthwhile point about how this will likely not affect Lost World decks very much:
Games where one player is going for a 6-prize win and the other is going for a Lost World win should (I think) finish a lot more quickly than normal games for the following reason. A normal game of Pokemon is a war of attrition. You are each knocking out each other's Pokemon, thus hindering their set up and making them run more slowly and require more effort to continue taking Prizes.
Against Gengar Prime, since he's probably not knocking you out very often, opting instead to Hurl Into Darkness, your setup is largely unaffected, allowing you to take 6 prizes much faster, as your power hitters are remaining alive. This implies that the Gengar Prime player is also capable of winning at a faster pace, since he's on a race to the finish with his opponent.
Their objectives don't intersect as much. It's more like a race to the finish than a game of tug-o-war, so it'll be over more quickly.
The result is that games go faster and it is unlikely that a 50 minute game 1 would happen in a game involving a Lost World-based deck.
That being said, anything that hinders Lost World-based decks is fine by me. They are attempting to exploit an alternate win condition, and that will rightly come with hurdles.
Kayle
Active Member
Twenty bucks says it's in the next set.
ok maybe not this is a kid site BUT I'M PRETTY DURN SURE.
Mystery Thing
Administrator
Yeah, we had a game at a CC top cut a few years back go 53+ minutes. (In a funny twist, the player that won game 1 also won game 2 in less than 3 minutes, and it wasn't a donk.)
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Speculating on how Lost World would effect the rules is just as meaningless as speculating on how the B/W rules will effect SPs. There's absolutely nothing to say that we will ever even have the situation arise.
Bolt
New Member
Ness' first post in this thread pinpointed the major idea.
Player A can win a long, well-thought out game one 6-0 in 57 minutes. The players take 2 minutes to shuffle and prepare. Player B takes a quick prize with SF Sableye and time is called. Player A can't quite hit the 60 damage mark. Sudden death game 3 - player B gets another quick prize with Sableye and wins the match.
Why should it be possible for one player to completely dominate an hour-long match and still lose it?
As for Dialga & Palkia Legend being the meaning for this change...really? It hasn't seen play in a sanctioned event yet. It gives up the same amount of prizes it puts down for its attack as when it is KOed, and it could easily be errata'd for a 6 prize max, which would balance it out for match play. (If you can't use the attack early, you're liable to lose the match by sending it active too early.)
So no, I can't really believe THAT'S the reason.
Player A can win a long, well-thought out game one 6-0 in 57 minutes. The players take 2 minutes to shuffle and prepare. Player B takes a quick prize with SF Sableye and time is called. Player A can't quite hit the 60 damage mark. Sudden death game 3 - player B gets another quick prize with Sableye and wins the match.
Why should it be possible for one player to completely dominate an hour-long match and still lose it?
As for Dialga & Palkia Legend being the meaning for this change...really? It hasn't seen play in a sanctioned event yet. It gives up the same amount of prizes it puts down for its attack as when it is KOed, and it could easily be errata'd for a 6 prize max, which would balance it out for match play. (If you can't use the attack early, you're liable to lose the match by sending it active too early.)
So no, I can't really believe THAT'S the reason.
You are forgetting that there is still a +3 on the end of time for that "short" game 2. So, you would get a few turns to try and get a KO back. Just sayin'
Keith
I'm not saying the rule change is perfect, was just pointing out it wouldnt count w/ a sableye donk (unless he was benched also). You still had +3 to return a KO.
Keith
fuzzywuzzy229
New Member
Umm, I'm guessing I came to this thread too late and seriously don't understand anything that is going on here so please excuse me asking my question (I want to learn this game as much as possible
)
@ Physics Squirrel
You said "If Player A is playing Player B in the top cut of a tournament, and Player B's deck can't get an early prize
easily, Player A will no longer play to win game 1. He will play to make game 1 last as long as possible. When time is called at the beginning of game 2, Player A automatically wins games 2 AND 3." How is it that time will be called at the beginning of game 2? I thought all games go 30+3. It's not like it says that all three matches have to be finished within a certain time period right?
)@ Physics Squirrel
You said "If Player A is playing Player B in the top cut of a tournament, and Player B's deck can't get an early prize
easily, Player A will no longer play to win game 1. He will play to make game 1 last as long as possible. When time is called at the beginning of game 2, Player A automatically wins games 2 AND 3." How is it that time will be called at the beginning of game 2? I thought all games go 30+3. It's not like it says that all three matches have to be finished within a certain time period right?
Umm, I'm guessing I came to this thread too late and seriously don't understand anything that is going on here so please excuse me asking my question (I want to learn this game as much as possible
@ Physics Squirrel
You said "If Player A is playing Player B in the top cut of a tournament, and Player B's deck can't get an early prize
easily, Player A will no longer play to win game 1. He will play to make game 1 last as long as possible. When time is called at the beginning of game 2, Player A automatically wins games 2 AND 3." How is it that time will be called at the beginning of game 2? I thought all games go 30+3. It's not like it says that all three matches have to be finished within a certain time period right?
In topcuts aka SEF, the matches are Bo3 within a set time frame. (minimun 45 min) There is no time limit for any single game, except the end of time for the entire match. Ergo, if the Bo3 match was announced to be 60 mins (fairly common), game 1 could drag out to say, 50 mins or so, unless one player wins outright OR the other player scoops (concedes game 1) to save time for a game 2.
Hope that helps.
Keith
PS The 30 + 3 is for swiss rds only. The SEF will have a +3 at the end of time for the match, IF there is a current game still playing.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
Explanation of 21.3?
Couldn't there be? Re-reading section 21.3 of the tournament rules, I'm kinda confused:
Thoughts:
Couldn't there be? Re-reading section 21.3 of the tournament rules, I'm kinda confused:
Thoughts:
- Interesting that single-game matches aren't constrained to 30 minutes. Only "minimum"? So can a PTO choose 40 if they wish?
- Bof3 is 45 min minimum. So you're saying they're typically an hour. But "no maximum time limit"? Isn't 1 hour a maximum time limit?
- Then that paragraph says "The specific time limit for each round's matches..." Does it mean each round in the Bof3, or in the whole tournament? If the latter, strange that this sentence doesn't have its own paragraph. Because I was initially reading it that the time limit could be set (30 minutes) on each of the Bof3 games within the hour.
Ness
Member
Agreed with not only what you say, but also your reasoning.
Rainbowgym
Active Member
If you set a time for rounds you have 2 options.
in Swiss you have 2 types of rounds: Gameplay (best of 1) or Matchplay (best of 3)
If you use Gameplay it has to be at least 30 minutes for each round (but you are free to make it 40 minutes each round)
If you use Matchplay (which is Best of 3) it has to be at least 45 minutes for each Match (and a Match consist out of 2 or 3 games)
You don't set a time for each game in Matchplay, it's the total time a player can use to play their 2 or 3 games.
When time is called the + 3 turns are to be played for each game still in progress
If you can't play around this rule than that's your fault. After time is called there's still 3 turns to be taken, if you can't win in those 3 turns than maybe you should lose games 2 and 3. I think this comes down to player skill and deck building, I've got nothing against it. I'm not going to complain about a ruling just to make winning easier for me.
NoPoke
Active Member
How can anyone using a set-up style deck that typically goes behind by a couple of prizes early game "play around" this rule?
What happens when a fast deck meets a slower deck?
Game one: with this rule change if the fast deck is loosing they should play it out doing everything they possibly can to reduce the amount of time available for game 2. Five minutes before time they concede and the set-up style decks' fate is sealed by the rule change.
What happens when a fast deck meets a slower deck?
Game one: with this rule change if the fast deck is loosing they should play it out doing everything they possibly can to reduce the amount of time available for game 2. Five minutes before time they concede and the set-up style decks' fate is sealed by the rule change.
Obviously you never played when Scramble Energy was legal.
I'm really tired of POP's constant flip-flopping of rules every season. It really shouldn't take 7 years to come up with a system that works. Why do even basic rules have to change so much? Anyways, I thought the whole point of the four-prize rule was to prevent stalling. Adding three turns isn't going to be enough. Look at it this way:
An intense Game 1 takes 45 minutes to complete and Player A wins.
After shuffling up and dealing, Game 2 starts with 10 minutes left on the clock.
Each player gets two turns off before time is called (generous the first couple turns, tbh).
Player B takes a prize on their turn.
Player A takes a prize on their next turn.
Player B takes a prize on their turn and wins by one prize.
The match goes to sudden death.
Player B opens the nuts and wins going second on T2.
That's why this new change is terrible. At least before, you would have a four-prize game determine a winner. I didn't even take the worst possible scenario, either. I simply provided an example where a close match turns into a complete donkfest in games two and three. There is no legitimate argument against saying it isn't this way, either. There are so many variables that come into play after three turns of a game. You can't consistently outplay anyone or outbuild someone in three turns. Give me a break.
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