Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community

[Porii Sames]

The point of the thread, I believe, is to discuss donking. That is what we are doing.

I believe that donks can give you a bit of a rush if you play a donk deck. Of course, this is over when you know how bad your opponent feels. But still, donks are, imo, good for the game.

 

[baby mario]

No, I was reading it like "Well, I almost took back the donk and let him survive..." You don't almost take it back. When there's that much money on the line, I would never take it back. I don't know how you can "almost" not donk someone.

What he said was . . .

My idea of donks is that they're frustrating, unfair, unhealthy, and totally not fun. It's the reason I gave a look of disgust when I donked Con Lee in the top 2 at Nats. I nearly asked if we could have it not count.

There's no need to be so ridiculously literal. It is obviously just another way of saying that he didn't want to win in that way.

All people in this thread that have purposefully donked people sound like hypocrites to me. I play to have fun; winning is OK.

Hypocrite is a strong word to throw around with no justification and it's pretty obnoxious of you to do that. We all play within the rules and take the opportunities that the game gives us. That doesn't mean that we have to like every single aspect of the game, or throw away a win just because it doesn't come in the way we would like.

But still, donks are, imo, good for the game.

Mind explaining why you feel that way?

What part of the experience is made better by donks? I mean, if you actually enjoy playing out games in an interactive way with your opponent, or think that skill should be rewarded, they don't seem to be all that beneficial.

 

[Yoshi-]

Porii, why dont you just stay home and play your deck against a mirror or something? This way you can enjoy donking and no ones day will be ruined

 

[Porii Sames]

You know what, I really don't feel like posting in this thread anymore. I've been getting mild flames, and no side is really convincing the other so I think this whole arguement in general is pretty pointless/

 

[baby mario]

I've been getting mild flames

Maybe if you didn't go around calling half the posters in this thread hypocrites?

Which (ironically) is itself a 'mild flame'.

 

[Raen]

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1880697#post1880697

People should read that to see how donks are bad for the game. I'd be pretty unhappy in this kind of situation.

 

[chrataxe]

I have to bring up a sentiment that was highlight early in that I don't mind getting donked by a donk based deck liek Uxie or SHuppet if I have a passable field for my deck (if i flip over Unown Q, well..that's just suck xD). But its when you flip over your 60 HP Spiritomb, preventing trainers from being played and decreasing the chance of the donk and get turn 1 Ambipom + 2 crobat gs to the bench, by a bad LuxChomp list.

Is LuxChomp designed to get T1 Ambipom and start wrecking havoc? No. Really, Ambipom isn't even included for that purpose. he's a Cheap Garchomp C counter who can take out unsuspecting Dragonite FBs if you bright look them up, and has the ability to move away important energy to something you can either snipe/Bright Look away or on something like Azelf who'll be stuck with it. Its attacks even have synergy for that! It serves those functions well, better than any other avaiable card to do the same. Its not supposed to donk. The attack even has the enrgy clause which allows any Pokemon to escape with 1/3rd its power if they have an energy making it easy to stop...if you gett he chance to.

Now if you whiff on energy, and then get donked for it, that's one thing. Decks today play much lower energy count in general than they once did (not like Base Set once did, just a while back) and your loss can be attributed to your decks underpreformance. But when you miss a coin flip and go second just to see your opponent play 4 total cards and win against a card designed to slow the opponent down, that's the kind of donk that leaves grapes sour. Its not that it can't be prevented, its that it isn't supposed to happen, based on the cards inclusion of the deck. Cards like Hopip and Unown Q and Magikarp come with that sort of thing tied to them, you know the risk of running these low HP basics and its your choice to deal with the possible outcome. But cards like Dragonite FB, Garchomp C, Machop, Smeargle and Azelf? Ambipom and Crobat with a DCE can endgame all of those cards without the same kind of dedication tot he deck Shuppet and Uxierush require to do the same. There's no pentaly to it, like when players used Riolu DP to donk Castform, in that you had to play a Lucario based deck and even then could only win if you got a coinflip.

TO summate all the rambling i look at it like this: If you play against Shuppet and you get donked, that's one deck preforming correctly. If you start with Unown Q, or whiff energy against Ambipom, that's one deck underpreforming. If you flip over and your opponent utilizes a card with purpose in the deck besides donking vs a Pokemon of yours with relatively high HP (50-60+ range) and you don't get a turn to react, that's the kind of donk that so many players recoutn tails of with despair. Its not that it isn't fair, its that it isn't a projectable occurance. If Ambipom for some reason or another could NEVER revenge kill a Garchomp C or Dragonite FB and could only surve to donk, would people still play it? Would those that do have greater succes than those who don't? Would you?

I have to say I completely disagree with this. getting beat by a donk deck is where the bitter berries come from. if someone randomly and accidentally t1's me, that's life. I play steelix. and, ill donk anyone I can with chansey given the opportunity. being as I only run 2 and 2 expert belt and 4 dce, the probability of that happening is pretty low. if I can do it, I will and won't feel bad about it....but that doesn't mean I will enjoy the win. also, I can say that I will never run a donk deck. there are also a few situations I don't think people should be allowed to gripe about.

1. sabledonk. sableye is a prevalent card, don't run anything under 60 hp, you know the risk.

2. unown q/ magikarp/hopip donks. you know there is a good chance you will start with them. when you do, take it on the chin.

3. any vilegar player. the pontential to t1/t2 shadowroom donk is always pretty good. that and playing 2 cards (3 actually) that just by virtue of having them in play and by doing nothing, you can win (trainer lock and fainting spell).

but, in all fairness, what isn't broken? Gyarados is autopilot with donking ability. all sp are autopilot with donking ability. machamp is luck of the draw (your opponent) and is either auto win or autoloss(more or less) depending on that draw.

 

[SLOW DECK]

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1880697#post1880697

People should read that to see how donks are bad for the game. I'd be pretty unhappy in this kind of situation.

This is a short cliff note deck report after I played Uxie at a cities. Top 4'd I have since obviously sworn off the deck since realizing what bad games these really were for the health of organized play.

Played it today in our Deerfield City.
Round 1 - Cliff and his Unown Q, and he goes first. I win, he was some what surprized on how long it took to get the damage out. 1-0
Round 2 - Adam Vernola, I go first, he get's a 2 Garchomp C, a Blaziken, and a mew and Uxie on the board. I don't have enough resources to get everything, I had to play conservative to coax out his power spray, that hurt the pace of the turn, but did get to KO both his Garchomp's that turn. I win 3 prizes to 0 when time is called, he is just too slow to get any bite to his line up. (This is Ice'd Cold's Sour Grape Match) 2-0
Round 3 - Colin - He starts with Mew(60HP), Mew(60HP), Infernape(90HP), Smeargle(70HP). I get them all. Put down 140 damage on damage drops. 3-0
Round 4 - Alex Brossard (Big Chuck) - I go 1st, He get's Dialga and Deafen Lock his turn 1. 3-1
Round 5 - Jason K (Ness) Ness starts with Unown Q, Magikarp, Regice, Smeargle. I get them all. 4-1 (This is Ness's Sour Grapes match)

Finish Swiss at 4-1 I think I am 4th.
Top 8 - Josh Wittz (JWittz) Josh is playing Gyrados tech. I go 2nd, he starts with a Dialga, Smeargle, and Uxie or something. I get them all first game. Game 2, he belts a Unown Q, with a bat drop to Donk my Unown R. Game 3, I donk a pair of Sableyes. (JWitz had some sour grapes here also)
Top4 - Steve B (Vile Gar) I helped him with his deck at battle roads, he was undefeated today, and needless to say. Good Game with Trainer Locks.

So game results
7 wins; 6 donks (1-single donk, 2-double donk, 1-triple donk, 2-quadro donk); 1 time win
4 losses; 1 donked ; 3 trainer lock

I felt the urge to demonstrate the deck, but I feel guilty playing it because there isn't a single good interactive match among them. How can anyone say that this sort of match had any sort of excitement. Pairing, Shuffle, Cut, Deal, Lay Basic(s), Flip Coin, Turn, Turn, Wait 10 to 15 minutes, sign Match Slip. (Or lock me)

 

[cpeterik]

Glad to see you have retired it, Rob!! I no longer have to travel to tournaments where you wont be.. haha.. just kidding.
Also, it's Colin, not Kyle

 

[Box of Fail]

It is the responsibility of the player to assess how donk-able their deck is. Maybe you want to refrain from using the 2nd Q or the Gyarados deck. If its a big problem, reconsider having ANY unown Qs. Play call energy. Play more basics.

Back when people had Jumpluff decks (often sporting 2 Qs) to see them donked out of top cut at a big tournament made me smile. In that situation, it really is your problem - what does one expect? If you run dialgachomp for example, if you cut the Q, your lowest HP Pokemon is probably a pixie, and 70 HP is harder to donk than 30 by a long shot.

Though thousands of disgruntled players will tell you otherwise, there is more to donks than luck (most of the time). If you're running 70 HP basics, sorry about that. If you're running Unown Qs and Magikarps, keep it in mind next time you build a deck.

 

[yoshi1001]

no side is really convincing the other

I've generally found that debates aren't really about one side trying to convince the other. Rather, the goal is to communicate to the people not involved in the discussion who haven't made up their minds one way or the other. If someone truely switches sides, it's generally because of something outside the debate.

One problem worth mentioning here is that it seems like not only are there a lot of competitive decks capabale of donking, but there don't seem to be many competitive decks without such a possibility leaving those wishing to avoid donking other players while remaining viable with few options.

 

[poinko]

Poinko, I’m just going to ask you right quick to consider me as a human being and fellow player of this game. I don’t think many people – even if they are adamantly against donks – would give up the chance to win thousands more in prize money to instead make some moral stand against donks. What would it accomplish? No Japanese card maker is going to see it and go, “Wow, I really applaud that guy, and I’ll never print another ‘donk’ card again.” The story might be passed around about the decisive stance that was made against donks, but most people would just criticize that person anyway (“Real players do whatever it takes to win, I don’t understand why he just passed when he could have won the game on turn 1… what an idiot”). In reality, it wouldn’t change anything other than the payout for that player.

I think maybe you missed the part of my post where I agreed with the action you took. I understand that you wanted to win for your family, and so you took the path that would help guarantee it. I would do the same. On the other side of the same coin though, I am also calling your actions hypocritical, not you personally.

Donks have been around since the beginning of the game and are quite obviously a viable strategy in the playing field. You're right that no one's going to stop and say 'oh man, we'd better stop printing cards that have the ability to donk!' because it's restricting a specific strategy to fulfill a win condition. Even if on the off-chance PCL were to somehow remove donks completely from the game, people would still find a way to build decks that do lots of damage turn one to hobble their opponent.

 

[Kayle]

I think maybe you missed the part of my post where I agreed with the action you took. I understand that you wanted to win for your family, and so you took the path that would help guarantee it. I would do the same. On the other side of the same coin though, I am also calling your actions hypocritical, not you personally.

Donks have been around since the beginning of the game and are quite obviously a viable strategy in the playing field. You're right that no one's going to stop and say 'oh man, we'd better stop printing cards that have the ability to donk!' because it's restricting a specific strategy to fulfill a win condition. Even if on the off-chance PCL were to somehow remove donks completely from the game, people would still find a way to build decks that do lots of damage turn one to hobble their opponent.

It seems like you're harping on a very black and white point while we are subjectively making the call that donks are too easy to achieve.

We have the power to make that call since, you know, we play the game. We're a pretty big part of what makes it go.

 

[eriknance]

I think maybe you missed the part of my post where I agreed with the action you took. I understand that you wanted to win for your family, and so you took the path that would help guarantee it. I would do the same. On the other side of the same coin though, I am also calling your actions hypocritical, not you personally.

Donks have been around since the beginning of the game and are quite obviously a viable strategy in the playing field. You're right that no one's going to stop and say 'oh man, we'd better stop printing cards that have the ability to donk!' because it's restricting a specific strategy to fulfill a win condition. Even if on the off-chance PCL were to somehow remove donks completely from the game, people would still find a way to build decks that do lots of damage turn one to hobble their opponent.

Poinko, I'm done here with this discussion. I'm honestly very surprised that anyone would take issue with what I said like you did. And yes, I see that you agree with the action that I took, but you still point it out as being hypocritical (not to mention coming off as sounding like you were attacking me, whether you meant it or not). I have no moral anguish over my decisions. I see your point, though if you could find me more instances of people foregoing the donk to help their opponents out, it would help me understand why you felt the need to single me out and question my intentions and call my actions hypocritical.

To get back on topic, one could very well argue at this point that Japan recognizes how unhealthy the format was with Uxie, Crobat G, Poketurn, etc. After all, they've decided to go through with a card rotation mid-season, something they've never done before. Obviously, they have a bit more experience with those cards than we do. This is why I actually changed my idea about the lack of Lost World in Triumphant. After being upset that it didn't get included in the set, I recognize that part of the delay may have to do with seeing how it works in Japan before letting the rest of the world get their hands on it. I just hope the rest of the world follows Japan with a mid-season rotation. I doubt this would happen, but it would make me very happy, as I think it would help promote a more healthy format. Which means more fun, less donks, less SP...

Also, I personally want to thank SLOW DECK for being very honest and open about his hyper Uxie donk deck. He does a good job of explaining why he doesn't want to play it anymore and why he thinks it's bad for the health of the game. While a lot of people have thoroughly defended donking in today's format (which is fine even if I disagree), SLOW DECK seems to have given more thought and attention to the nature of donking and why it's unhealthy for the format.

Finally, to sum up what a lot of people have said, it definitely is worth putting those Call Energy back into your deck and experimenting with Spiritomb or other trainer locks if you're worried about being donked. I'll never throw Spiritomb in my SP decks, but that's only cause I won't be playing SP anymore this season. On the other hand, it's futile to expect people to go through some consistency-crushing changes to help protect against the donk. In the past, the answer to speed was basic consistency, which never hurt a deck. Today, the solution of adding Spiritombs, Call Energy, Mr. Mimes, etc. into a deck that doesn't even need them is just kind of silly.

Oh, one last thought. Part of the reason that I'm so adamant about donks being unhealthy for the game is because there's a very real fear that the new B&W rules may be implemented to a MD-on format. I know a lot of people here would think that it would never happen, but trust me, it could. P!P hasn't always made the best decisions for the game, and sometimes the players have helped voice their opinion enough to make actual changes happen. If this thread helps get their attention about this issue, then maybe greater consideration would be made concerning the health of the format. It doesn't take a genius to see how messed up first-turn trainers would be in an MD-on format (Sableye/Crobat G/Uxie donks would terrorize), so I don't think there's any harm in just typing up a few thoughts about the issue. I would hate to see a bunch of players drop out from the game right before Nationals or Worlds because of a failure on P!P's part to listen to the players.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Finally, to sum up what a lot of people have said, it definitely is worth putting those Call Energy back into your deck and experimenting with Spiritomb or other trainer locks if you're worried about being donked. I'll never throw Spiritomb in my SP decks, but that's only cause I won't be playing SP anymore this season. On the other hand, it's futile to expect people to go through some consistency-crushing changes to help protect against the donk. In the past, the answer to speed was basic consistency, which never hurt a deck. Today, the solution of adding Spiritombs, Call Energy, Mr. Mimes, etc. into a deck that doesn't even need them is just kind of silly.

To protect yourself against donks indeed adding Spiritomb and Call give you some "protection".
But that isn't enough, you still have to run more Basic Pokemon as what you normally would do.
Beside avoiding the donk, you will find another problem on you way if you survive the donk. (and if you don't want to run decks everybody is using aka Luxchomp/Gyarados/Vilegar)

Against Luxchomp/Gyarados you need Vileplume to stand a chance which makes it another 6 cards extra into your deck. If you want to run 1nrg/high damage attackers who can use Rare Candy , Vileplume and Spiritomb will hurt you more than it helps. Against Vilegar you need something to avoid that disgusting Fainting Spell.

Are we really talking about a "diverse" metagame? Don't make me laugh.
We have around 1400 cards in the format and only a handfull of those are used.
Why do we need 12+ sets?
I really really hope we will get a midseason rotation, at least we will see some other cards being used.
Still there always will be some cards who perform way better in any format, but after facing Gengar for the the third season, Luxray being around for ages.
I won't cry to see them go.

Rotations are good, they force people to think about new decks and not using that "Golden Oldie" with some adjustments.
While any format might have it's "best decks" with fast rotations you are at least not forced to see them around to long.

 

[Pikabruce]

...Donk deck games are essentially solitaire games...
...why dont you just stay home and play your deck against a mirror or something?

To argue as "devil's advocate", for a moment:

Some players, in order to play a good deck effectively, need to feel really comfortable with the deck. They need to "play test" the deck against a variety of opponents who are playing different decks. That way, when their own deck presents them with a choice to be made, they will make the most effective choice available for those circumstances, and they can also tweak their deck to improve it.

But some players have very few opportunities to play Pokemon TCG with others, even though they enjoy playing the game. So they may find themselves going to a tournament and playing a deck they really aren't that familiar with, or comfortable with.

But if they are playing Uxie Donk, then they can indeed practice using the deck, and get comfortable with it, even though they don't have any opponents to practice with. Uxie Donk is essentially Pokemon solitaire. Players can practice alone, and then still go to a tournament and play the deck effectively.

I think Uxie and Crobat G should never have been released in their present form because they are so abusable (with either card, using their Power should have immediately ended the player's turn). But since they are legal, they should be used and abused until they are not legal.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

To argue as "devil's advocate", for a moment:

Some players, in order to play a good deck effectively, need to feel really comfortable with the deck. They need to "play test" the deck against a variety of opponents who are playing different decks. That way, when their own deck presents them with a choice to be made, they will make the most effective choice available for those circumstances, and they can also tweak their deck to improve it.

But some players have very few opportunities to play Pokemon TCG with others, even though they enjoy playing the game. So they may find themselves going to a tournament and playing a deck they really aren't that familiar with, or comfortable with.

But if they are playing Uxie Donk, then they can indeed practice using the deck, and get comfortable with it, even though they don't have any opponents to practice with. Uxie Donk is essentially Pokemon solitaire. Players can practice alone, and then still go to a tournament and play the deck effectively.

I think Uxie and Crobat G should never have been released in their present form because they are so abusable (with either card, using their Power should have immediately ended the player's turn). But since they are legal, they should be used and abused until they are not legal.

However, if Uxie ended a players turn, Evo decks would get even worse...

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Actually if Uxie and Crobat both had something like Gardevoir's old Telepass where you could only use the power once in a given turn no matter how many you had then both cards would have fewer issues than they do now.

Similarly if we didn't have some of our current trainers this would be less of an issue.

Honestly LA, SF, & PT are the sets that break our current format the most. All of these are pretty old. This is the 3rd year we will have had SF for Cities. That's a really long time.

 

[Ness]

This post was actually well-written. The bottom line is that donks are indeed bad for the game. Why? Because no one likes it. Losing first turn just leaves you feeling bitter, almost cheated. So many people spend so much money to attend tournaments like Nationals & Worlds. For Worlds, they play the whole season, changing their deck, practicing, trying to earn that Worlds invite. Then, imagine showing up to Worlds and getting turn oned the first game you play in. You'd have to not be human to take that lightly. For me, I can still remember to this day each & every time someone turn oned me. It just isn't a fun experience. Ultimately, some people will not play the game because of it.

However, I think complaining about it will not accomplish anything because Japan makes the rules and cards, not us. Can't put it better than this:

except...all these suggestions as to "what POP can do" are actually the types of changes that can only come down from japan...

jmho
'mom

So our choices are to 1) deal with it, or 2) find a new game. Sometimes a lot of things in Pokemon get frustrating to the point that I consider #2, but in the end, it's still the most fun card game in the world, so I'll stick around.

 

[Box of Fail]

Actually if Uxie and Crobat both had something like Gardevoir's old Telepass where you could only use the power once in a given turn no matter how many you had then both cards would have fewer issues than they do now.

Similarly if we didn't have some of our current trainers this would be less of an issue.

Honestly LA, SF, & PT are the sets that break our current format the most. All of these are pretty old. This is the 3rd year we will have had SF for Cities. That's a really long time.

^IMO power spray would break the game in that case.

And of course I have had my share of sour grapes, but it really depends on deck choice. People who play Gyarados, cite statistics that show they "shouldn't" start with lone Magikarp/ Q because of their various donking countermeasures, then get donked deserve little pity imo. I know I keep harping on Gyarados but that's due to the fact that people call it the BDIF, then feel like a Magikarp getting donked is pure misfortune.

Donkability is a valid reason to opt not to play a deck.