Politoed666
New Member
Where do you get that? It doesn't matter how many prizes are taken... if the opponent has six Pokémon in the Lost Zone and you play Lost World, you win. End of story.
Is Gyarados a Suicide Play for States?
- Thread starter jrwaxman
- Start date
Where do you get that? It doesn't matter how many prizes are taken... if the opponent has six Pokémon in the Lost Zone and you play Lost World, you win. End of story.
Kayle
Active Member
*gulp* Okay, my turn, gonna try this
I have yet to see a list that runs Tomb AR, PONT, Dex and Drawer that didn't have other concerns. Indeed I have only seen one list, in fact, that runs Dex and Drawer. PONT is a pretty rare play.
Lots of the time you need a Setup to get the rest of those things, and Gyarados don't mind taking a few leisurely prizes on Tombs or whatever if they can Seeker their Mesprit and keep lock even under trainerlock.
You did mean AR, right?
It was a weak point, to be sure. Mesprit does not PREVENT setup, it merely slows it. However, when combined with Gyarados' OHKO/2HKOs... it becomes problematic for gengar, and getting 6 Pokemon Zoned is a much greater challenge.
Belted Gyarados = 110
Do I agree with it, iunno. But it's a meritable idea.
Gyarados runs fine without powers mostly because its setup is based on Volkner's and Sableye; Gengar is still slightly more dependent on those Setups, even if only slightly as you claim. Gyarados can almost go without playing Uxie at all.
I can see Warp Point tricks working sort of, but the thing about this trick (which I have never managed to pull) is that it requires two Gengars in play, which doesn't seem to happen all that often.
Gonna play some moar consistent Lostgar before deciding, but if I was set on backing up Apollo, the above would be why.
I have yet to see a list that runs Tomb AR, PONT, Dex and Drawer that didn't have other concerns. Indeed I have only seen one list, in fact, that runs Dex and Drawer. PONT is a pretty rare play.
Lots of the time you need a Setup to get the rest of those things, and Gyarados don't mind taking a few leisurely prizes on Tombs or whatever if they can Seeker their Mesprit and keep lock even under trainerlock.
You did mean AR, right?
It was a weak point, to be sure. Mesprit does not PREVENT setup, it merely slows it. However, when combined with Gyarados' OHKO/2HKOs... it becomes problematic for gengar, and getting 6 Pokemon Zoned is a much greater challenge.
Belted Mew = 140
Belted Gyarados = 110
Do I agree with it, iunno. But it's a meritable idea.
Gyarados runs fine without powers mostly because its setup is based on Volkner's and Sableye; Gengar is still slightly more dependent on those Setups, even if only slightly as you claim. Gyarados can almost go without playing Uxie at all.
I can see Warp Point tricks working sort of, but the thing about this trick (which I have never managed to pull) is that it requires two Gengars in play, which doesn't seem to happen all that often.
Gonna play some moar consistent Lostgar before deciding, but if I was set on backing up Apollo, the above would be why.
Son_of_Apollo
New Member
replies are bolded
Not disagreeing on that, but gengar also runs mesprits. Assuming you're able to use psychic bind first all depends on luck.
Son_of_Apollo
New Member
I completely agree
jjkkl
Front Page Article Editor
@Kayle && @Son_Of_Apollo,
Alright, maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I'm not running across Gengars with really any setup problems unless you're thinking of those blitz lines, upon which they run pretty much 4-4-4-4 Uxies-Drawers-Dexes-R's.
I dun no, maybe Canadians are being radically different from you yanks >:\
Alright, maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I'm not running across Gengars with really any setup problems unless you're thinking of those blitz lines, upon which they run pretty much 4-4-4-4 Uxies-Drawers-Dexes-R's.
I dun no, maybe Canadians are being radically different from you yanks >:\
I think it's a terrible play, the metagame shift is going to kill it. Luxchomp eats the deck, Gengar wrecks it especially if the gengar player runs ts2-devoluter (which they should), Dialga isn't the most favorable match up, and Vileplume variants hurt the deck tons. I think it's a terrible states choice, to be honest I think the deck is dead.
Of course if you run the trainer heavy build you're hurt by dialga, spiritomb, and Vileplume. If you run the Sableye build you're hurt by Gengar prime. If the gengar prime player runs TS2 Devoluter you lose the game.
Of course if you run the trainer heavy build you're hurt by dialga, spiritomb, and Vileplume. If you run the Sableye build you're hurt by Gengar prime. If the gengar prime player runs TS2 Devoluter you lose the game.
Kayle
Active Member
Really confused 'bout this logic broseph.
Firstly Luxchomp does not eat Gyarados and never has eaten Gyarados and that's why the deck did so well and continues to do well. It has a fairly favorable matchup since it can set up decently around spray, slow the opponent with Mesprits, and out-KOs Luxray in all but the luckiest (for Luxchomp) of circumstances. It's not like an autoloss, obviously, but it's not favorable.
Secondly it had at least a decent matchup to Vilegar, certainly survivable.
Thirdly I don't see how Gengar beats it easily, let alone beats it with Devoluter. Belted Gdos needs 2 Cursed Drops before Devoluter does anything scary, so you lose a Gengar, maybe two Gengars, in the process. Oh, by the way, any Cursed Dropping you have to do requires 2 energy, so that can be a huge pain to keep going after I KO you. You'd be best off hoping to hit the t1 Hurl against my hand of Karps. Fail it, you have serious problems.
keep goin, you can say what you like about the matchup and I'm sure you've got better points/logic buried in there somewhere, just waitin to hear it
Jason
Active Member
What have you been thinking as of late? I am sure you claimed it totally wrong. Gyarados have MANY ways to get around a TM-TS devoluter tech. Look, they can do a Seeker/Warp chain while attaching Expert Belt to it, that way you cannot send a Magikarp to the lost Zone, and Gdos have the best consistency (Junk Arm, Pokdrawer+) so it can exploit anything to what they wanted in a pinch. Everything in their deck is searchable and have so many options. Therefore, TM-TS02 is a waste of tech, especially if the Gdos player plays it very smart.
DIALGA? No way! It's depends if that build run Stadiums/Skuntank otherwise Gdos beat it every time. Vilegar? Hard matchup but it is all down to Gdos outs and a smart player would think carefully and plan it out like, utilize a Skuntank G and Seeker up stuff to avoid death while hitting your Gengars for 90 damage with Bat drop and Poison. And Luxchomp? Mesprit chain is too much for them, so a really smart Gdos player can beat them EVERY time and if a smart Gdos player is played against a Smart Luxchomp/Diachomp/Vilegar, it is ALL depends on the hands and what they can do.
Quit suggesting about that bad tech, kid. And you owe me something to make up for wrecking the search results the other night with your spamming of TM TS-02
ProfessorJacob7
New Member
teching a cyrus's conspiracy is pretty good for gyarados against lostgar (idk if this was said already, i didnt read the thread lol). t1 impersonate cyrus for collector/turn/energy if you have it. then collector for stuff to set up next turn. also mew prime is cool if you can force them to lost zone the gyarados
Jason
Active Member
If you are teching in a Cyrus Conspiracy to avoid the risk of Magikarp lost-zoned then it wouldn't hurt to tech in a single Poketurn as it worked wonders with Junk Arm. A water Energy would be fun to tech in xD
yoyofsho16
New Member
Unless they have a specific out of devolving Pokemon, Lostgar really shouldn't be that much of a problem... you just can't use Sableye to get those Collectors. More of the issue is starting with a Karp in the face of a T1 or T2 Gengar. Check another box as to why Smeargle-based Dos is getting better and better.
I'd worry more about Luxchomp, to be honest. More people are turning back to 2-2 Luxray lines in Gengar anticipation, AND more people are playing Expert Belt because it tilts the Dos matchup like crazy.
All in all, I think a LOT less Gengar will be seen than people anticipate. It IS a good deck, but just for the price factor alone I think people will favor their tried-and-true decks for States.
---------- Post added 02/17/2011 at 12:15 AM ----------
Does your Gengar list have the damage option?
I feel like Gyarados keeps a vulnerable bench for Curse Drops and Whatever-GengarX's-Attack-Is-Called.
I'd worry more about Luxchomp, to be honest. More people are turning back to 2-2 Luxray lines in Gengar anticipation, AND more people are playing Expert Belt because it tilts the Dos matchup like crazy.
All in all, I think a LOT less Gengar will be seen than people anticipate. It IS a good deck, but just for the price factor alone I think people will favor their tried-and-true decks for States.
---------- Post added 02/17/2011 at 12:15 AM ----------
Does your Gengar list have the damage option?
I feel like Gyarados keeps a vulnerable bench for Curse Drops and Whatever-GengarX's-Attack-Is-Called.
@Bromo Kayle
keep in mind a few things with the Luxchomps in my area. Since the players around here are wise to dos they're luxchomp decks run 3-1 Lux, 1 Lucario, 2 Contest Hall and 2 Belts. It eats gdos alive, granted the lock helps a little against it if they don't start cyrus chain or lose the cyrus chain. Also at least in my build of Genlost I ran Cyrus, turns, and Bats. In order for me to get off the devoluter knock on a belted dos all it took was 1 bat drop or 1 turn and a cursed drop. The Sableye build runs a much better chance against vilegar and if it's a good gdos player who knows to only discard 2 Karps than the match up is winnable, problem with running the sableye variant is that your match up against genlost now becomes a lot more dangerous.
The wait is over son, the wait is over.
@Broediah Jason
Number one the dos player is gonna get hit with pitch dark x amount of turns. Keeping up a consistent Seeker lock isn't exactly like keeping up a Cyrus chain, especially considering the deck has a heavy reliance on it's other supporters. You go mesprit lock I go pitch dark a few times and I think I end up winning that one. I have never seen a Dialga list that didn't run counter stadiums, the match up is in your favor but not by much stadium hate still hurts and trainer lock is a cuss.
You act like you're gonna have this Mesprit chain the entire game like your playing gigas or something. Unless your list runs 4 seeker and 4 vs seeker and 4 Junk arm to get your vs seeker back so you can vs seeker your seeker the chain isn't going to last. Since when did gdos have the consistency of Plox to power lock?
The truth is out TS-2 Devoluter is sneaking in and taking your jobs.
keep in mind a few things with the Luxchomps in my area. Since the players around here are wise to dos they're luxchomp decks run 3-1 Lux, 1 Lucario, 2 Contest Hall and 2 Belts. It eats gdos alive, granted the lock helps a little against it if they don't start cyrus chain or lose the cyrus chain. Also at least in my build of Genlost I ran Cyrus, turns, and Bats. In order for me to get off the devoluter knock on a belted dos all it took was 1 bat drop or 1 turn and a cursed drop. The Sableye build runs a much better chance against vilegar and if it's a good gdos player who knows to only discard 2 Karps than the match up is winnable, problem with running the sableye variant is that your match up against genlost now becomes a lot more dangerous.
The wait is over son, the wait is over.
@Broediah Jason
Number one the dos player is gonna get hit with pitch dark x amount of turns. Keeping up a consistent Seeker lock isn't exactly like keeping up a Cyrus chain, especially considering the deck has a heavy reliance on it's other supporters. You go mesprit lock I go pitch dark a few times and I think I end up winning that one. I have never seen a Dialga list that didn't run counter stadiums, the match up is in your favor but not by much stadium hate still hurts and trainer lock is a cuss.
You act like you're gonna have this Mesprit chain the entire game like your playing gigas or something. Unless your list runs 4 seeker and 4 vs seeker and 4 Junk arm to get your vs seeker back so you can vs seeker your seeker the chain isn't going to last. Since when did gdos have the consistency of Plox to power lock?
The truth is out TS-2 Devoluter is sneaking in and taking your jobs.
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Jason
Active Member
Look kid, Pitch dark does not worry me much if I can get a collector off the bat and still maintain a power lock at the same time. You may not be aware but I run 2 Mesprits, not just 1. That allows me to set up and maintain a lock at the same time. Also I run a Judge which I can nail it if I need to plus don't forget I also have 4 SSU which I can use it before choosing a supporter mainly to try and hit heads on them to reuse my Mesprits mainly. And remember, your arguement about TS TM-02 would NOT do justice. It may be in the early stage but it will be countered with ease, and don't forget, your Bats would be useless if I keep an unbreakable power lock and blahblah...Smart player know how to beat the hell out of Lostgar.
Protip: Lostgar will NOT win States.
/thread.
Protip: Lostgar will NOT win States.
/thread.
BrightRush
New Member
I agree, Lost Gar wont win any states in (Masters). Maybe 1 Lost Gar deck will get lucky through Swiss and Top Cut but I highly doubt it. So my guess to how states LostGar will win is 0-1 in week one. Maybe If LostGar starts to become more popular after week one (which I doubt) it will see more play and maybe win a few but the current builds/deck is not great in the current meta mainly because of the vast variety of problems (SP Variants (Dchomp/Sablelock/Luxchomp), VileGar (Trainer lock cripples the speed engine which is imo the best way to run the deck) , and Dark Decks).
Pitch Dark'll work wonders against that SSU mesprit lock. Test against a lost gar that runs 1 Mesprit, 2 Crobat, 4 Cyrus, 3 Turn, 3 Twins, and 2 Devoluter and let me know how it goes. You'll find yourself making threads asking if Gdos is suicide for states.
A Supporter-heavy Gyarados may have trouble to do well, but then again it´s never been the best version.
Pure Trainerdos, meaning the engine is mainly trainer-based? I haven´t tested this one (does anyone have a skeleton list?), but I can imagine it encountering large issues with trainer and power lock, which will be quite active.
At the moment I´m testing a Gyarados with a balance of Supporters and Trainers, with Poké Drawer+ of course.
It has some space issues meaning Special Darks are more difficult to fit in, but it should be doable.
Devoluter? What on earth is bad about Devoluter? One Magikarp in the Lost Zone changes nothing. Two means you have basically lost the game, but Gyarados runs SSU, Junk Arm, Seeker, VS Seeker and all of that. (Anyone crazy enough to play Poké Healer+?)
Xicious´ deck example isn´t that scary. The power lock hurts, and sure enough it can devolute a Magikarp once, but I don´t see a method to get two Magikarp in the Lost Zone with Devoluter.
Simply put, I don´t think Gyarados is a suicide play at all.
Lostgar probably won´t see as much play as expected, and it´s proven: it can win tournaments. Why not States?
Pure Trainerdos, meaning the engine is mainly trainer-based? I haven´t tested this one (does anyone have a skeleton list?), but I can imagine it encountering large issues with trainer and power lock, which will be quite active.
At the moment I´m testing a Gyarados with a balance of Supporters and Trainers, with Poké Drawer+ of course.
It has some space issues meaning Special Darks are more difficult to fit in, but it should be doable.
Devoluter? What on earth is bad about Devoluter? One Magikarp in the Lost Zone changes nothing. Two means you have basically lost the game, but Gyarados runs SSU, Junk Arm, Seeker, VS Seeker and all of that. (Anyone crazy enough to play Poké Healer+?)
Xicious´ deck example isn´t that scary. The power lock hurts, and sure enough it can devolute a Magikarp once, but I don´t see a method to get two Magikarp in the Lost Zone with Devoluter.
Simply put, I don´t think Gyarados is a suicide play at all.
Lostgar probably won´t see as much play as expected, and it´s proven: it can win tournaments. Why not States?
When exactly are you going to pitch dark? At the beginning of the game? Ok, well then you can't lost zone anything until you break the trainer lock, unleashing gdos's set up. What I am talking about is starting a power lock a little later, after set up. Then, your lostzoning ability will be crippled. Is that when you're going to pitch dark? Then I'll just knock out the ghastly every turn making it awfully hard for you to build gengars.
As for devoluter, it would obviously hurt gdos. Just not as much as people think. Cursed drop then a surpise flash bite+devoluter would really hurt a gdos. But that requires you to build a lostgar with devoluter and crobats! You're sacrificing more important matchups for a deck that was never the bdif or your worse matchup, and that will be played less than ever.
As for devoluter, it would obviously hurt gdos. Just not as much as people think. Cursed drop then a surpise flash bite+devoluter would really hurt a gdos. But that requires you to build a lostgar with devoluter and crobats! You're sacrificing more important matchups for a deck that was never the bdif or your worse matchup, and that will be played less than ever.