SP Hate
- Thread starter Porii Sames
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Porii Sames
Active Member
Wait...
Are you saying that SP is overpowered...by SP?
Luxchomp is by far dominant (yeah I still think Sablock is the black horse but w/e), but the point is that plenty of other decks have a chance.
Are you saying that SP is overpowered...by SP?
Luxchomp is by far dominant (yeah I still think Sablock is the black horse but w/e), but the point is that plenty of other decks have a chance.
vaporeon
Moderator
Nothing diverse about this. Most it Gengar and Garchomp with different win conditions. I want to see a format where its more red face paint or at least more choices to choose from.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Hey, still different decks. Lostgar and Vilegar play totally different, and Dos is still great choice.
@Vaporeon
DISABLE the engine. That's why inconsistent Luxchomps get locked by Sablocked, or why inconsistent SP in general can get locked easier...
With SP, either shut off it's main engine or be faster than it.
---------- Post added 03/26/2011 at 02:37 AM ----------
People make successful rogues...noone said it was easy.
Magnerock is the perfect example. Did it win ECC? No, but it made the deck well known to win states.
vaporeon
Moderator
I mean and I'm sure other mean SP as Luxchomp plus techs. Its the engine that makes it overpowered. We have Basic Pokemon with powerful LV. X forms and some of the most poweful LV. X's all together. Its an SP decks ability to tech with poweful basic SP pokes along with the main deck. Luxchomp is where its at because of techs.
Sure SP can be beat, like any other deck but the main issue is that the deck is fast and can recover without no problem and no other deck can do that. Stage 2 decks hold their own because of BTS. Take that out and gengar is a sitting duck.
I understand you like SP but A lot of people don't. It was a good idea but they are way too powerful.
Nah, I'm saying SP used to be cool when there were so many SP decks to choose from. Now, IMO, the only winning SP decks you can really choose from are Dialgachomp and Luxchomp.
Don't get me wrong, I think plenty of other decks have a fighting chance. I don't see the point in complaining about SP being overpowered. I just find SP stale because SP basically means you're playing 1 of 2 (or 3) decks. Once upon a time, there were so many more. So when it's time for SP to go, I feel kinda like "So what?"
Don't get me wrong, I think plenty of other decks have a fighting chance. I don't see the point in complaining about SP being overpowered. I just find SP stale because SP basically means you're playing 1 of 2 (or 3) decks. Once upon a time, there were so many more. So when it's time for SP to go, I feel kinda like "So what?"
vaporeon
Moderator
Shutting of the engine is not easy to do unless you play trainer lock though. I don't know whats worse. A format dominated by SP or Trainer Lock.
Porii Sames
Active Member
@Shen
Yeah, sorry. Misread you post. Agree, SP was a lot more diverse
@Vaporeon
Uh, you're correct, but..what does that have to do with this? Gengar wouldn't be good if it didn't have BTS...so yeah.
---------- Post added 03/26/2011 at 02:46 AM ----------
But then you STILL have decks like Steelix and Gyarados that do neither...
Plenty of good options for the format.
Yeah, sorry. Misread you post. Agree, SP was a lot more diverse
@Vaporeon
Uh, you're correct, but..what does that have to do with this? Gengar wouldn't be good if it didn't have BTS...so yeah.
---------- Post added 03/26/2011 at 02:46 AM ----------
But then you STILL have decks like Steelix and Gyarados that do neither...
Plenty of good options for the format.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Which 2? Vilegar and Luxchomp?
Porii Sames
Active Member
Uh...
Steelix can absolutely pwn SP if it gets set up enough, and with a starter (Skarmory, Tomb, Rachi, Smeargle, etc.) you can get up that Steelix that SP can almost never take down.
Trainerdos IS faster than SP, though.
Steelix can absolutely pwn SP if it gets set up enough, and with a starter (Skarmory, Tomb, Rachi, Smeargle, etc.) you can get up that Steelix that SP can almost never take down.
Trainerdos IS faster than SP, though.
I was using the term "overpowered" as a reference to SP (ie: When we had 5 or 6 SP decks to play instead of the couple we have now). I didn't see your reply before I posted >.>
Anyways, as for the locking discussion... I think we're going to see a lot more trainer locks in the near future with GoW and that Gen 5 Goth thing with a trainer lock. I'm just happy we have these locks in the first place to block GoW lol
---------- Post added 03/26/2011 at 04:01 AM ----------
Also, I'd take Power Spray over Psychic Lock any day ><
Anyways, as for the locking discussion... I think we're going to see a lot more trainer locks in the near future with GoW and that Gen 5 Goth thing with a trainer lock. I'm just happy we have these locks in the first place to block GoW lol
---------- Post added 03/26/2011 at 04:01 AM ----------
Also, I'd take Power Spray over Psychic Lock any day ><
In my opinion, there are three main reasons that SP is hated...
- It's overpowered. There's no doubt about it. When a theme wins Nats 09, has a part in winning Worlds 09, wins the majority of Cities, States, and Regionals in 2010, then wins Nats 2010 as well as Worlds 2010, and continues to win the majority of Cities and States in 2011, it's overpowered.
- It breaks the fundamental rules of the game. Evolving? Not even real. Pokemon being a game without counterspells? Nnnope. Paying the energy cost printed on the card? No way. There's a lot of players out there who love playing with slow, tanky decks that just can't keep up with SP at the moment. There are some slower decks that can, yes, but most of them have to tech heavily against SP and risk losing to most other things. I love playing SP and I love what it brings to the game, but I can see why others don't.
- There's no other themes. In YGO there are different themes. Gravekeepers, Blackwings, etc. that all have cards that specifically interact with that theme (I'm not a huge YGO expert by any means, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this), whereas in Pokemon, SP are the only cards that get treated this way. That's not to say that each theme in YGO is balanced as that's not really the case at all, but at least support for multiple themes exist. If Pokemon implemented an Eevee theme that had Eevee based supporters, trainers, energy, etc. as well as multiple others, the hate for SP would lessen by a poopton, imo.
I love SP and have played it religiously since Garchomp was released, but even I can admit these things.
- It's overpowered. There's no doubt about it. When a theme wins Nats 09, has a part in winning Worlds 09, wins the majority of Cities, States, and Regionals in 2010, then wins Nats 2010 as well as Worlds 2010, and continues to win the majority of Cities and States in 2011, it's overpowered.
- It breaks the fundamental rules of the game. Evolving? Not even real. Pokemon being a game without counterspells? Nnnope. Paying the energy cost printed on the card? No way. There's a lot of players out there who love playing with slow, tanky decks that just can't keep up with SP at the moment. There are some slower decks that can, yes, but most of them have to tech heavily against SP and risk losing to most other things. I love playing SP and I love what it brings to the game, but I can see why others don't.
- There's no other themes. In YGO there are different themes. Gravekeepers, Blackwings, etc. that all have cards that specifically interact with that theme (I'm not a huge YGO expert by any means, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this), whereas in Pokemon, SP are the only cards that get treated this way. That's not to say that each theme in YGO is balanced as that's not really the case at all, but at least support for multiple themes exist. If Pokemon implemented an Eevee theme that had Eevee based supporters, trainers, energy, etc. as well as multiple others, the hate for SP would lessen by a poopton, imo.
I love SP and have played it religiously since Garchomp was released, but even I can admit these things.
ashinto
Active Member
False, I had no problem picking up SP and playing it. Yes there were some minor misplays, but I wasn't playing like I just picked up the deck for the first time in my life. Some matchups are challenging, though you learn real quickly how to get over them.
The reason why people hate on SP is simply because of what the people before me have said. It bases the game off of opening hands, has been around for too freaking long (if they do a PT-on format I'm quitting for the season along with most other right-minded people), and IMO after a while, it just gets extremely boring to play the same cards every single tourniment. God, think of it, how long have we been seeing diagla g, and gyarados, and palkia g, and garchomp, and sabelye, and luxray gl in tourniment play?? This format has been dominated by the same two sets of cards ever since they came out. This format isn't MD-on, it's SF/PT/RR-everything else!! That's why people hate SP's along with other cards that are winning so much. They had there time (a lot of time) and now it's time for other cards to shine. There are so many amazing cards in this format that are stopped because they lose to SP!!
SP when it first came out was great for the format, though they should've ended it sooner, or at least made it PT-on so other decks that would've been able to stand a chance without cards from SF being in the format could be played, making this format a bit better than it is now. With the new rules coming out with first turn supporter/trainer use, SP (and gyarados/sableye) are going to be legitimately broken decks, making the format even worse than it is now. Thanks a ton for a "healthy" format PUSA!!
Politoed666
New Member
Listen, the SP hate isn't directed at Beedrill G, so you're safe. Beedrill G doesn't count as an SP deck.
From States 2009, when Dialga G Lv.X, Palkia G Lv.X, and Toxitank dominated States, SP has run the format. People don't like the monotony. In this area, probably less than half the decks played at major tournaments are SPs. Over half the decks at the top tables are SPs. Most of the decks that win are SPs.
It isn't that some people aren't trying to be creative, run setup decks, etc. etc.. They are. But the dominance of SPs make successful rogue decks all but impossible. There are very few counters to SPs (Mewtwo Lv.X and Machamp come to mind) and those lose to everything else. Fun. Meaning, there are basically no viable counters to SPs. Garchomp C Lv.X, when you add DCE into the equation, is far and away the best attacker in the format.
If SPs didn't have access to a bunch of really, really broken cards, it wouldn't be a big deal. But think about it. Think about how broken, say, Donphan would be if it had auto Scoop Up effect, Castaway that searched for any Trainer, an additional free energy attachment each turn, and the ability to stop the opponent from doing anything. Getting the picture? Oh, and it could snipe the bench.
For awhile, SPs weren't so bad. And they still can take skill to play, especially DialgaChomp. The reason many people dislike them at this point is because they've been around too long and won for too long. IIRC you weren't really around here two years ago when SPs took off... no one hated them then. People are just sick of them at this point, and eager for them to be out of the format.
Thank God for rotations.
Not if you consider Sablelock an SP deck, which it is. Sablelock is probably actually the most potent SP deck in the hands of certain players.
From States 2009, when Dialga G Lv.X, Palkia G Lv.X, and Toxitank dominated States, SP has run the format. People don't like the monotony. In this area, probably less than half the decks played at major tournaments are SPs. Over half the decks at the top tables are SPs. Most of the decks that win are SPs.
It isn't that some people aren't trying to be creative, run setup decks, etc. etc.. They are. But the dominance of SPs make successful rogue decks all but impossible. There are very few counters to SPs (Mewtwo Lv.X and Machamp come to mind) and those lose to everything else. Fun. Meaning, there are basically no viable counters to SPs. Garchomp C Lv.X, when you add DCE into the equation, is far and away the best attacker in the format.
If SPs didn't have access to a bunch of really, really broken cards, it wouldn't be a big deal. But think about it. Think about how broken, say, Donphan would be if it had auto Scoop Up effect, Castaway that searched for any Trainer, an additional free energy attachment each turn, and the ability to stop the opponent from doing anything. Getting the picture? Oh, and it could snipe the bench.
For awhile, SPs weren't so bad. And they still can take skill to play, especially DialgaChomp. The reason many people dislike them at this point is because they've been around too long and won for too long. IIRC you weren't really around here two years ago when SPs took off... no one hated them then. People are just sick of them at this point, and eager for them to be out of the format.
Thank God for rotations.
Not if you consider Sablelock an SP deck, which it is. Sablelock is probably actually the most potent SP deck in the hands of certain players.
Now let's take those decks and separate them out according to their strategy:
Speed: Luxchomp, Dialgachomp, Gyarados, Machamp
Trainer Lock: Vilegar, LostVileGar, Dialgachomp
Other Lock: Sablelock
I don't really consider LostGar without Vileplume as a "winning deck." Aaron Curry's the only guy who did anything with it. And I lumped Chenlock into Sablelock since it's basically the same strategy anyway. It's hard to argue for Steelix and Magnezone since, from a State-winning perspective, they did as good as Arceus did.
Porii, I have a feeling you're going to disagree with me no matter what I say, so I'm really posting this more for other people than you. But I do hope you truly consider what I'm saying, since it bears a great deal of weight on our current format...
When I first got into this game, there were tons of strategies that people could use to win tournaments. I just talked about this on another thread where I listed a number of decks that, within a two-year period, could win tournaments. Here are those decks: MetaNite, Flariados, Dragtrode, Ludicargo, ZRE, LBS, PowCham, Metro, LunaRock, Destiny, Mynx, Raieggs, Flygon d, Rock Lock, Spin Tail T-Tar decks, ZapTurnDos, Dark Slowking, Machamp/Pidgeot, Queendom, Speed Banette (or BanDoom), MewTric, Eeveelutions/Pidgeot, Jynx swarm, Speedrill, Salamence d, Polistall, Shedstall, Mercury, Scythe, Speed Scizor, Absolution, FlyCatty, Speed Arcanine, BanCham, Scrambled Eggs, Muk Lock, Huntail/Gorebyss, etc.
Here are the other post I made concerning these decks: here. Also, I forgot some other decks like Dark Steelix, Dark Slowking, and Jumpluff, among other rogue-ish type decks.
The thing about those decks is the variety they provided to the game, strategically speaking. MetaNite had variable damage and used two Stage 2's, Flariados was all about special conditions, Dragtrode manipulated energy and could hit hard or play defensively, Ludicargo ran every tech imaginable, ZRE was disruptive and fast and just insane, LBS was a powerhouse of a deck, Powcham locked Poke-Powers and spread damage, Metro was the Metanite across the pond, Lunarock was an all basic speed deck, Destiny was a counter, Mynx was a mind-blowing lock deck, Raieggs was a spread, etc. etc. etc. Almost every deck had its own viable strategy.
Today I see everything setting up by turn 1 or turn 2 unless someone's playing a trainer lock deck. That's about the entirety of the format: speed and trainer lock. Even trainer lock has to be speedy, since a single turn of letting a Gyarados player use trainers can mean a game loss in the end.
I'd like to write out some lengthy answer to the original post, but I don't really have the time (have to go volunteer). In any case, many people have hit some good points. SP is overpowered with its own exclusive trainer/supporter engine, it's been around for far too long, and it kills the potential strategies that this game could see. Also, if SP weren't around, I'm sure you would have people hating on Gyarados for the same thing (even though I played Gyarados at both States, I still can't stand the deck). So it's not just an SP thing, it's the overarching polarity the format has right now in terms of strategy. You either play a blindingly fast game or you hope to play a menacingly slow game... either way, it's boring to me.
Er...
Gengar deals with SP by teaming up with a card that literally makes a third of the SP deck unplayable (Vileplume), and even then it doesn't always win.
And Machamp deals with SP not with speed but with "1 for KO loooooool" which has been broken since it came out - BEFORE SPs even arrived on the scene.
Uh... did you seriously just refer to Fossils and Rotoms as a serious possibility?
Rotoms are pathetic, they're basically SP pokemon that don't get access to the SP engine. And before you mention Charon's - no. it's a Supporter which DESTROYS its usefulness.
Fossils? Viable? Oh, you flipped over a Spiritomb *scoop*
When the sum total of the non-SP winners only barely beats LuxChomp's win total alone...
PhadedPhione
New Member
People still hated Gardevoir Gallade more than SP. After SP is gone there will be another deck that people will hate more than SP. Properly played, SP doesn't care about Machamp. GG was probably the end for the ex-era decks, and we haven't seen anything in print yet that has been able to consistently ruin SP. SP has the tools to win any game, and the milage covered by the tools is entirely based on player experience and comparative skill level.