SP Hate

[AlmightyGoldenGarchomp]

SP was fun and not too hard too hard to beat, until Luxray gl and Garchomp C were born. I like playing SP combos. They are fun. Luxray gl and garchomp C are not. Too much power in a couple of cards=not fun stupid locks with short games and no real competition.

 

[Scipio]

People still hated Gardevoir Gallade more than SP. After SP is gone there will be another deck that people will hate more than SP. Properly played, SP doesn't care about Machamp. GG was probably the end for the ex-era decks, and we haven't seen anything in print yet that has been able to consistently ruin SP. SP has the tools to win any game, and the milage covered by the tools is entirely based on player experience and comparative skill level.

Metas dominated by GG:
Cities 2007/2008, States 2008, Regs 2008, Nats 2008, Worlds 2008

Metas dominated by SP:
States 2009, Regs 2009, Nats 2009, Cities 2009/2010, States 2010, Regs 2010, Nats 2010, Worlds 2010, Cities 2010/2011, States 2010/2011...

 

[Porii Sames]

But SP has changed...Luxchomp has only dominated for a year now. First it was (iirc) Dialga/Palkia and Toxitank, then it was Luxape/Box, then it was Blazeray, then it slowly evolved into Luxchomp and Sablock.

 

[Yoshi-]

Because they dont all play the same, nooo lol

Spray and keep your opponent from playing, thats it. I dont care if I get sprayed or binded, if I draw pass for 7 turns because my opening hand sucked there is little point in playing

 

[Swordfish1989]

I love SP, and disagree with people who think that SP doesn't require any skill. It requires a heck of a lot more skill than the straight stage 1, stage 2, etc decks. I can pick up a Tyranitar, Donphan, or Machamp deck without ever having played it before and make little mistakes because the strategy is obvious and so are the cards. With SP, there is something that makes the deck much better than others, but also makes it much harder than others - search. A regular SP deck has the ability to use a variety of different search cards, and even when using those cards, a lot of cards to choose from. With Cyrus, if I need both, say, an SP Radar and an Energy Gain, which one is better to grab first? Do I even use Cyrus, or do I go with collector to get more SPs out and risk an Uxie? Sure, there are basic 'rules of thumb' for SP, like, getting your Garchomps out earlier than your opponent if you're playing mirror, but that doesn't mean that everything else is automatic. It's the easiest deck to make misplays with.

With regards to variety in the format, I think Pokemon players are spoiled. I've played at least 2 other types of TCGs and the variety, at small or big tournaments, doesn't even compare to the variety you see in Pokemon. I mean, you have at LEAST 3 major types of decks right now, Vilegar, Luxchomp, and Gyarados; I've played in those other TCGs in formats where there was only ONE deck type everyone was playing. Sure, it's not perfect because it isn't a perfect balance between a ton of different decks, but I have news for you: it's never going to be. Look around for real world examples.. in every industry, there are only 3 major players. Fast food = McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys. Airlines: American, Delta, Continental. The rest, are small, or rogue as pokemon would call it. Our world just seems to be structured that way and there isn't anything you can do about it. Just as you see a lot of SP in tournaments, you see a lot of McDonalds when you're driving. Such is life.

 

[Porii Sames]

Because they dont all play the same, nooo lol

Spray and keep your opponent from playing, thats it. I dont care if I get sprayed or binded, if I draw pass for 7 turns because my opening hand sucked there is little point in playing

Uhh, then don't play I guess?

Swordfish, I totally agree with you there.

 

[Scipio]

Uhh, then don't play I guess?

Swordfish, I totally agree with you there.

You only agree with him because he conforms to your point. I'll never see you concede any points from the opposition.

 

[baby mario]

That's because Porrii is a type of troll. Deliberately provoking people and replying to detailed arguments from experienced players with non-answers like 'deal with it' and 'don't play',

He has been playing the game for a very short time (mostly against himself, apparently), and basically has never known anything else apart from an SP dominated meta.

So it's not surprising that he doesn't understand SP hate or has any remotely convincing arguments against it.

 

[wulfboy15]

Reason 1: ALMOST every single SP deck out there uses Luxray or Garchomp, two overpowered cards imo, ESPECIALLY if you consider their Lv. X.
Reason 2: They're all basic! Meaning things like Pokemon Collector, Dual Ball, Great Ball, etc. make these things even more annoying.
Reason 3: Power Spray. 'Nuff said on this one.
Reason 4: Dialga G Lv.X. While it's becoming less common now, it's still really annoying with the fact that it shuts down all non SP Poke-Bodies.

Now don't get me wrong, I like SP decks and all, but still I would like to see some more variety than just SP decks using Luxray and/or Garchomp.

 

[Porii Sames]

That's because Porrii is a type of troll. Deliberately provoking people and replying to detailed arguments from experienced players with non-answers like 'deal with it' and 'don't play',

He has been playing the game for a very short time (mostly against himself, apparently), and basically has never known anything else apart from an SP dominated meta.

So it's not surprising that he doesn't understand SP hate or has any remotely convincing arguments against it.

There's been great answers in this thread...

Nance's was probably the most convincing, I kinda understand where people are coming from now.

My arguements against SP hate are pretty much that SP is fun and challenging to play with. My meta isn't even pure SP, if anything it's overrun by Vilegar.

And Garchomp and Luxray weren't the beginning SP cards...SP has evolved from the beginning, which has made it crazy diverse.

Legos aimed to powerlock
Box aimed to pretty much beat anything
Dchomp aimed to lock bodies, trainers, powers, and bench while tanking
Luxape aimed to spread a bit while using Luxray to KO 80 HP pokes like Claydol
Blazeray intended to use heavy disruption and keep bench control
Luxchomp does the same
Sablock uses hand disruption and bench sniping to win before the opponent is set up.

Yes, they break the rules of the game so to speak. But plenty of non-broken, flat out bad cards do as well. You can play 60 Arceus in a deck. Omanyte evolves from a trainer. Lost World lets you win another way, etc...

 

[Swordfish1989]

*She

And what my argument didn't address, I can understand why people may think that SP is overpowered, and wulfboy's points show that. I think what happened is that SP and regular Pokemon aren't compatible with each other. The SP mechanism reminds me a little bit of YGO (especially the power spray). The original design of Pokemon just isn't compatible to what we have going on now, I get it. After all SPs finally get rotated out, we'll have the original back. The only problem, IMO, is that the original is pretty boring, since the search options aren't as vast. But I'll bet you anything that even after the rotation we will still have variety. Pokemon's problem isn't variety.

But as to your point about basics, having an all basic lineup by itself isn't broken; that's practically what Haymaker used to be. The problem is having evolved pokemon be basic.

 

[Elite_4_Allen]

There's plenty of winning decks:

Luxchomp
Vilegar
LostVileGar
LostGar
Dialgachomp
Sablock
Chenlock
Gyarados
Machamp

IDK how this is stale really...

I'd say the format is diverse-ish.

It's stale because half of those decks you just listed have been around for a year or two already.

 

[jeffrey123]

When one deck has to take in the proximity of another and take account for the luxchomp autoloss they have, the deck is majorly unplayable. Eveyr deck in format needs to be able to beat it, so things like abomasnow can't be competitive because of it.

It makes the game lame

 

[Shen]

Not if you consider Sablelock an SP deck, which it is. Sablelock is probably actually the most potent SP deck in the hands of certain players.

Yeahh I agree it's a winning deck but I kinda have a hard time calling it an SP deck. I can understand why some people class it as one. For me, it's the fact that Sablock could potentially still exist with hardly any SP cards at all. The core of the deck (Sableye + disruptive supporters) isn't SP based.

There's also the fact that it usually only runs 1 dedicated SP attacker, a starter (which is virtually unheard of in any other SP deck), along with not even having to run a staple like Bronzong G (or Promocroak I guess). Either way it doesn't really matter. Even 3 SP decks isn't very much compared to what there used to be, and what we have are all partially Garchomp variants >.>

 

[Qwachansey]

1. Been around for tooooo long. What, 2 years now? It's annoying to see Luxchomp after Luxchomp at EVERY tournament.

2. The whole engine thing that no one else can use is just annoying.

3. The play style... sniping and power locking instead of direct damage REALLY frustrates beginner as well as more advanced players.

4. Look I play it proxy sometimes to help my friends practice and I'm sorry but the engine runs itself. It is much easier to play than any other deck except maybe Donphan.

5. For some reason I always go 1st and get donked by it.

 

[eriknance]

Damn I miss Polistall/ LudiCargo .. :'( /nostalgia

Btw, were all those decks legal in the same format ? Was a mere senior back then, so didn't have the indepth analysis over the larger metagame.

For the '05-'06 season, the decks in red were legal and played. For the '06-'07 season, decks in blue were legal and played. Decks in purple were legal and played during both seasons. And decks without any color were seldom played decks, though they were played more than our current format's Arceus decks (consider them to be more on the same level as today's Steelix or speed LostGar decks). Hope this helps!

MetaNite, Flariados, Dragtrode, Ludicargo, ZRE, LBS/MLS(Meganium in place of Blastoise), PowCham, Metro, LunaRock, Destiny, Mynx, Raieggs, Flygon d, Rock Lock, Spin Tail T-Tar decks, ZapTurnDos, Dark Slowking, Machamp/Pidgeot, Queendom, Speed Banette (or BanDoom), MewTric, Eeveelutions/Pidgeot, Jynx swarm, Speedrill, Salamence d, Polistall, Shedstall, Mercury, Scythe, Speed Scizor, Absolution, FlyCatty, Speed Arcanine, BanCham, Scrambled Eggs, Muk Lock, Huntail/Gorebyss, Dark Steelix, and Jumpluff, among other rogue-ish type decks.

If I'm wrong on some of these, my bad and please let me know so I can fix it!

 

[LoTad]

I'm not sure why people are trashing power spray of all cards. I think its great when pokemon releases a never-before-seen game mechanic (ie playing cards on your opponents turn). The same thing happened when lost world came out. People were whining because the rules of the game changed, but isn't that what makes games like pokemon great? It's fun to have to constantly adapt and have the chance for creativity to outspeed netdecking. I think it would be better if the game changed more often.

ALl it takes to beat sps are opening hands because sp is all about stopping you from playing,

Then how come you see luxchomp mirrors going past time all the time. It's unlikely that both players are getting exactly equal hands in each of those games.

They only win by stopping you from playing? Maybe sometimes, but even if there was some rule like sp decks can't do damage until turn 3 or 4 or something like that, they would still be the best deck in the format. It isn't necessarily the speed early in the game that makes them so good, it is the fact that you need hardly anything to do any move at any time mid game. That is far less "unfair" than something like uxie donk which actually does win by stopping you from playing.

Speaking of "stopping you from playing", why is everyone hating on sp? The deck that frustrates me, and every other player I know, is vilegar. This is a deck that stops you from playing. It's slow, relatively inconsistent, bad at recovering, somewhat weak, and terrible players can play it, but it is still easily tier one because it STOPS YOU FROM PLAYING. The deck's point is the slow the game down and pull you down to its level so that it can slowly beat you as you hold your hand full of potent trainers. It takes out the games most important mechanic: trainers!

If you hate sp, you should hate vilegar more. Vilegar is actually the deck that is allowing sp to continue to win, if you think about it. Vilegar keeps machamp and quick gdos lists in check, allowing sp to remain the bdif. Just think about the decks we could have to beat sp if vilegar wasn't around...

 

[Scipio]

"Here, let me just play this 60 HP bas-"
"LOLBRIGHTLOOKFLASHIMPACTROFLOL"
"Alright, I'll evolve this other one into an 80 HP stage 1 and..."
"LOLDRAGONRUSHKTHXBYETROLOLOL"
"Sigh, fine, lets play this Uxie, hope I'll get a Can.."
"NOPOWERSPRAYHERPADERP"

Yeah...I'd call THAT prevention of play.

 

[vaporeon]

I'm not sure why people are trashing power spray of all cards. I think its great when pokemon releases a never-before-seen game mechanic (ie playing cards on your opponents turn). The same thing happened when lost world came out. People were whining because the rules of the game changed, but isn't that what makes games like pokemon great? It's fun to have to constantly adapt and have the chance for creativity to outspeed netdecking. I think it would be better if the game changed more often.

The fact is that ONLY Sp gets to use Power Spray. The fact that ONLY SP get Trainer and Supporter support. The fact that SP GOT very powerful basic AS LV X Pokemon. No other cards are as fast as SP. SP got Poke Turn, which lets them pick up ANY SP they have in play with any attachments, thats better Scoop Up, Power Spray kills games. I'm thinking of running Volkners over Uxie.

The main issue is that ONLY SP got access to the engine and can still use other cards like Pokemon Communication. Look back at the EX series. The Holon engine was for Delta Pokemon what every deck could use it. There were some cards that only targeted EX Pokemon, like Ray* and some trainers did not work on them. SP does not get this. The game treats them better then every other Pokemon.

---------- Post added 03/27/2011 at 03:17 PM ----------

Speaking of "stopping you from playing", why is everyone hating on sp? The deck that frustrates me, and every other player I know, is vilegar. This is a deck that stops you from playing. It's slow, relatively inconsistent, bad at recovering, somewhat weak, and terrible players can play it, but it is still easily tier one because it STOPS YOU FROM PLAYING. The deck's point is the slow the game down and pull you down to its level so that it can slowly beat you as you hold your hand full of potent trainers. It takes out the games most important mechanic: trainers!

If you hate sp, you should hate vilegar more. Vilegar is actually the deck that is allowing sp to continue to win, if you think about it. Vilegar keeps machamp and quick gdos lists in check, allowing sp to remain the bdif. Just think about the decks we could have to beat sp if vilegar wasn't around...

See, Vilegar can be stopped. Umbreon UD and Dialga G X slows the deck down. Umbreon blocks the whole deck. Lostgar as well. Just SP not so much. Its the fact that the deck can tech against your techs and not risk the matchups against other players.

 

[Venusaur003]

Been around pokemon for a while and must say never been as frustrated by a format as i am by SP. And i play a VileGar with a Bannette(TH) tech. They only reason i even play VileGar is because it has a decent chance against SP. Yes, VileGar is able to stop the use of trainers but unless you can do it by turn two it's usually too little too late. A pokemon that can snipe for 80 and a full heal is just a tad much. Then toss in Luxray Lv.X and you have too much power. Then lets not forget Dialga Lv.X, blocks Vileplume's/Mewtwo's ability and is a pain to take down.
now the trainers. Powerspray, cool ability but what makes me hate it is that only an SP user can use it. Then there are the other staples such as Cyrus, Powergain, and Sp radar. all in all very powerful engine.
My main problem however is it is old. Ive been seeing the same strategies and combos for YEARS... I spend my time thinking of how to beat luxchomp not how to make a deck that is fun to me. My meganium/leafeon deck just sits there...