"Declumping" a Deck

[Ignatious]

I can take my best seven cards and put them on the top of my deck before a match. Is this cheating? Not necessarily. If I effectively shuffle afterwards it makes no difference. The deck is getting 'randomized' one way or another. If you see your opponent declump, just shuffle their deck. Problem solved. In Pokemon we have time limitations for a reason, and as long as your search fills that time period, what you do in that time is up to you. Check prizes, think about the search, or declump. If you cannot do all you need to do in that period of time, then YES it is wasting time. Otherwise it's time that could be eaten up anyways, and all it takes is cutting or shuffling after the declump.

 

[Ness]

In Pokemon we have time limitations for a reason, and as long as your search fills that time period, what you do in that time is up to you. Check prizes, think about the search, or declump. If you cannot do all you need to do in that period of time, then YES it is wasting time. Otherwise it's time that could be eaten up anyways, and all it takes is cutting or shuffling after the declump.

Just because you are allowed to declump your deck in a timely manner does not mean it is not wasting time. Anytime spent reorganizing your cards prior to an adequate shuffle accomplishes nothing. There is a difference between a rule being broken and simply wasting time. If you do not shuffle adequately, then yes, you're breaking a rule - you're attempting to manipulate your draw. But if you do shuffle adequately, well then, what was the purpose of moving cards around to a desirable order?

...and going around saying people are cheating, because the way they conduct their deck is different than yours is not only ridiculous, but the rules don't support such a claim.

You have already admitted (to hundreds of readers, too) that you are declumping cards in your deck in attempt to manipulate your draw by "preventing dead draws." (Another way of saying "I am trying to reorganize my cards to produce less possibilities of bad hands.") Yes, there are rules against attempting to rig the order your cards are drawn in. So you are correct that our conduct definitely is different - you are a cheater. I am not.

I encourage anyone who plays you to thoroughly shuffle your deck.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

For the record I do not declump, I am standing up for something I view as a justifiable action, and it's offending for you to call me a cheater for such reasons. And even if I did you aren't the one who gets to decide the rules, and I also support long hard shuffles, but you also have to realize that that solution doesn't work for all players, and it's unfair to them as well to say they can't try to prevent bad draws, and consistently lose matches for such a reason. I understand that to you it isn't a viable way of doing things, but not everyone's you and different people have different mannerisms and behaviors, and thus they won't fit into your perfect view of how to play, and they shouldn't have to.

 

[Ness]

... and it's unfair to them as well to say they can't try to prevent bad draws.

I'm going to accept there a few people in this thread that just don't "get it."

 

[Cyrus]

...If I stay within then amount of time I'm allowed to search my deck, and I declump WHILE looking, I'm not wasting any time. The other fact is how do you know that me "wasting time" as you put it, doesn't hurt me in the end as cause me to lose. You're not going to get me to agree with you on this Jason. You have had some good points in the past in other subjects, but this isn't one of them.
Drew

I have a minor disagreement here. See, just because you "stay within the amount of time...allowed" (presumably determined by the guidelines for time) doesn't mean that the behavior isn't wasting time.

Any unnecessary movement or action is a waste of time, and that includes de-clumping. However, while most de-clumping I've seen is an almost instant process, and therefore un-enforceable vis-a-vis time guidelines, this is a definitive no-no:

But if they take 5 seconds of their search to declump...

If someone is spending five whole seconds of a search just to de-clump, then there is a serious problem - one that should be interpreted as slow play.

RE the topic as a whole: cliff notes for the OP's post -

Point 1) It is cheating and/or wasting time to de-clump (serious emphasis on the "or" part)
Point 2) Sufficient randomization can only be obtained through good shuffling, and anything extra - de-clumping included - is a hindrance to that.

And the thing is...He's completely right about that. People just don't read, and are too quick to look into the "cheating" part - not the "wasting time" part. While I don't really view de-clumping as a big issue, it is an unambiguous waste, and if you're getting into the absurd territory with it (5+ seconds), then you're breaking the rules of timely playing.

Question is...What, if anything, should be done about it?

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Oh I get it, believe me I do, I just don't agree. You're the one who isn't understanding that not everyone agrees with you, and not everyone views the action as cheating. Yes a good hearty shuffle should fix any problems with randomization, but not all players would agree, and their dead draws are a sign to them that the shuffle wasn't effective. I'm not saying I agree with the notion, but it's still there, People still think that and that's what you're missing, that not everyone has the same mental approach to the same problem.

 

[Ness]

Roles, it's not my opinion that you aren't allowed to stack your deck. You just aren't allowed to stack your deck. And that's all declumping is: stacking the deck.

Glad you asked, Cyrus. Now we're getting somewhere. I would hope after reading more players would:

1) Stop declumping their deck. (Afterall, it is a waste of time at best and Pokemon games are already pressed for time.)
2) Shuffle their opponents deck if they spot them "declumping" but then do not adequately shuffle themselves.

 

[mattalvis]

I cannot believe there is even any debate as to whether or not "declumping" is an acceptable practice. I don't see how it isn't obvious that you shouldn't be doing this to begin with, let alone after Jason's simple explanation of why you shouldn't. It annoys me to no end when someone does this, and guess what - if I see you doing it I am just going to thoroughly shuffle and randomize your deck FOR you when you offer to cut.

 

[djjoe227]

To the people insisting that organizing and then shuffling cancels out anything, think of it like this:


There are 3600 ways that your 60 card deck can appear before you draw your first card.

If you change the order, and then shuffle, there are still 3600 ways your 60 card deck could appear.

If you declump and then shuffle, there are still 3600 ways your 60 card deck can appear.


After you draw 7 cards, set 6 prizes, draw a card, and play a shuffle effect, there are only 2116 ways your deck can appear. If you shuffle after declumping, there will still be 2116 ways your deck can appear before drawing your next card.


This number decreases as cards are taken from the deck, but one thing is clear- that number WILL not change until the quantity changes. There will always be a 1/X chance of a deck's certain order as long as the quantity of the deck is the same.

This all support's Ness's claim of "Wasting Time". By declumping, ordering, stacking, or whatever the deck, there is always a 1/X chance that the deck may go back to the EXACT way it was before deckumping. Therefore, no matter what, your declumping, ordering, stacking- whatever the case may be- is ultimately ineffective. By deciding which cards should or shouldn't be together you are wasting time, whether it matters to match time or not, and you shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Prof Clay]

Those of you who declump...what is the point of shuffling afterward....

Ness is saying you are wasting time by doing so because if you PROPERLY shuffle again, you may have undone your declumping effort...

There are not that many types of card in a typical Pokemon deck even though there are 60 cards...they are going to clump up...I estimate there are on average only 18-20 different card types in a deck...thus increasing the odds they end up in a good/bad order

You pro-declumpers are really just making yourselves FEEL safer by declumping rather than actually accomplishing anything meaningful to your deck...and just wasting time....Its a psychological thing more than a true help

AND if you have done a good table shuffle after your last match or right before, and THEN go looking through your deck...you must be very insecure..

I can't call you for cheating when you do it, but your opponent SHOULD shuffle the heck out of your deck just to undo anything you might have accomplished...

Some of you must be very anxious at not knowing how your deck is randomized during a match.

 

[Ness]

I think a lot of us are being generous when we say you are only wasting time. Playing in tournaments for over 12 years I can tell you that most people who "declump" (stack) their deck do not do much shuffling afterwards. They do this on purpose to increase the chance that the order of cards they created is maintained.

 

[Cyrus]

Oh I get it, believe me I do, I just don't agree. You're the one who isn't understanding that not everyone agrees with you, and not everyone views the action as cheating. Yes a good hearty shuffle should fix any problems with randomization, but not all players would agree, and their dead draws are a sign to them that the shuffle wasn't effective. I'm not saying I agree with the notion, but it's still there, People still think that and that's what you're missing, that not everyone has the same mental approach to the same problem.

Fact: in pure randomization, it is possible - however unlikely - that you will draw a dead hand if your deck list allows for it. Since nearly all deck lists allow for this, the mere appearance of a bad hand should not alone be justification to rush off and de-clump.

(I know you're not necessarily saying that - just trying to discourage people from believing that to be the case.)

 

[PokePop]

Just to note, it almost was made a part of the tournament rules that "declumping" would have been illegal.
The sole reason argued against it and why it was not made against the rule was the difficulty in enforcement ("I wasn't declumping, I was moving a card that I was considering getting with my search and I changed my mind")

So declumping is definitely not a good thing and while allowed (with sufficient randomization afterward), it is frowned upon.

 

[Mekkah]

If this "declumping" actually benefitted you in any way during the game, you effectively cheated. If it did not because your deck was properly randomized, then you wasted time doing something that did not help. Sounds like I'm repeating things that have been said, but it seems it just doesn't reach some people.

The only reason I can think of that you would "declump" (the term is about as stupid as the action) is because despite all evidence against it, you believe it is harmless and it helps you, even if it's only your mentality. Mentality is a great deal in games. If something makes you more comfortable during a game and there's no harm in doing it, then you might as well do it.

But it's not harmless, you're either rigging your deck or wasting time, so stop being egoistical and just shuffle your deck properly.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

The whole 'wasting time' argument is so flimsy I can hardly believe no one has bothered refuting it yet. Wasting time is purely up to perspective, for instance I might be thinking about what I want to get from a search and declumping while I'm thinking, even though you observe it as a wast of time, I'd be using that time thinking anyway. Second everyone wastes time, we aren't robots, and why does it matter to begin when most matches finish before time is called anyway, your just using it as a reason to be right. After all wasting time isn't even against the rules in the first place, prolonged slow play is, but wasting a few seconds isn't in anyway wrong.

And as I have said countless times before. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work or not, if you see it as a useless practice that accomplishes nothing then why bring it up in the first place. Some people feel it helps with making their deck run more properly, after all what good does it do you when 6 of your 12 energy are withing 8 cards of each other, and they see it as a supplement, not a replacement, but a supplement to shuffling. No one is arguing for declumping to become a normal thing to take the place of shuffling, but the one's who do it do it on top of a good hearty shuffle in the hopes that they might have better luck.

While on the topic of luck, why not ban good luck charms that don't get in the way and are clearly not a part of the deck or anything. It is just taking up space after all. /sarcasm

Also if I were ever inclined to cheat, why would I use such an inefficient process as declumping, and not find some other way to exploit the game. Declumping =/= stacking

Also one last note I am in no way saying I endorse it, just trying to explain why I disagree with the explicit hate.

 

[Ness]

Just to note, it almost was made a part of the tournament rules that "declumping" would have been illegal.
The sole reason argued against it and why it was not made against the rule was the difficulty in enforcement ("I wasn't declumping, I was moving a card that I was considering getting with my search and I changed my mind")

I am glad to hear it was considered to be made illegal, but I think I ultimately agree with the conclusion that it shouldn't be - and for the same reasons, too...which brings us back to the whole reason I posted this thread.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I feel a tad bit of clarification is needed on my part.

First of all I do not feel that declumping is effective, useful, beneficial, or a good idea in general, and I am fully understanding of the fact that many people don't feel that it's a form of cheating

However my intention was to explain that there are players that either don't understand, or don't agree with such disagreements, and to try to explain that not only is there a reason for what they think, and try putting it into a different perspective.

Additionally there are many comments that are...a little much. I don't think this deserves to have the word cheater being thrown around. I do fully feel though, that if you are disatisfied with the way your opponent shuffles his/her deck then you should shuffle it yourself, that why the option is there, and should become a regular habit for players.

 

[StormFront]

If you're unhappy with how your opponent has shuffled their deck you should always shuffle it yourself.

Anyone who's done any programming can tell you that:

Random =/= Even Distribution of Objects

While computers don't trully produce random results, their results are much more random that what humans can realistically achieve. In order to produce a fair deck shuffle you would need to speed 6-7 mins using various shuffling techniques.

ever heard of Poker? black jack?

I knew of people with poker decks who could shuffle the deck and then draw a royal flush as easily as anything.

That requires
A - Using a cold deck (pre-stacked)
B - 2nd, bottom dealing

The best way to shuffle a deck doesn't work well with Pokémon cards. It's called a wash, and it's where the deck is laid face down on the table and spread out. Then, the shuffler uses the palms of his hands to mix all the cards into one big pile, simulating a washing motion. Casino dealers do this for card games.

When I play the first game of a tourney, I will always use a spread shuffle, thats because my deck is usually pre-arranged beforehand for pre/deck checking purposes. The method is popular in Casinos as its easy to teach new employee's. You don't need that much room to do it, but I dislike this method as it often tears sleeves and the corners can often cut the palms of your hands.

 

[vaporeon]

Even you do this? Yes, that doesn't surprise me.

I see nothing wrong with it. I pile shuffled 3 times before a game and still started with a lone Voltorb with 6 energy and drew more energy for my next 2 draws.

If I'm searching my deck, I'm going to move cards around. If I see 3 Voltorb, Collocters, etc, I'm going to move them around to deck to get better randomness. I still shuffle my deck and offer to my if they want to cut or not. Its not like I'm taking extra time and declump every card in the deck. It's no different then searching your deck 5 to 6 times over making sure nothing is prized or everything is where it's suppose to be.

It would be different if your opponent did not let you cut or shuffle, then you call a judge but you don't call a judge when they are moving cards around the deck. If the deck is shuffled afterwards, then their is no problem. It can even help the player out. Both players can do it, if no extra time is taken during the search, there should be no problem.

 

[espeon200]

Alright, lets take this to its logical conclusion. According to Wikipedia, in a deck of 52 regular playing cards, a deck has to be riffle shuffled a total of 5 times in order to be well randomized. Any player who is not riffle shuffling their deck 5 times is therefore cheating and needs to be disqualified from the match. This also means that players are no longer allowed to do a weave shuffle because if they know how to manipulate the cards they can effect a stacked deck by ordering the cards how they want them before the match and doing a Faro shuffle until the right cards are in the right locations. In fact, we need to get rid of pile shuffling as well since a player who pile shuffles efficiently enough can also stack their deck.

Ness, you're right, as long as the deck is shuffled well it's pointless to declump. But it's also pointless to bring your stuffed Charizard mascot to every game you play or to wear the same shirt for every cities you attend. The only difference between these things and declumping is that they take time away from the game. If you suspect your opponent of stacking the deck, you have the RIGHT as a player to randomize their deck after EVERY shuffle. Not just the opening shuffle, but every single time they randomize their cards you can randomize them to.

If you're worried about them slow playing then call over a judge and tell them you suspect your opponent of slow playing. This will do one of two things: it will either stop your opponent from slow playing or they will be penalized for doing so. Maybe I'm being too idealistic here. If I am, let me know.

I see your point, but is it fair to punish the 99% of players who declump innocently not thinking about all the ramifications just to stop the 1% who are actually trying to cheat in this manor?