"Declumping" a Deck

[thunderjolt]

The reason I "declump" is because my hands get rather sweaty, making my card sleeves stick together. So, if I'm in the middle of a match (and thus cannot pile shuffle) I separate my 3/4 candy that are in a row, because they are likely to stay that way being stuck to one another. Although, if I start noticing that the same things always get stuck together because of sweat, then I just switch the sleeves to avoid a problem.

 

[Ness]

The reason I "declump" is because my hands get rather sweaty, making my card sleeves stick together. So, if I'm in the middle of a match (and thus cannot pile shuffle) I separate my 3/4 candy that are in a row, because they are likely to stay that way being stuck to one another.

So you cannot shuffle well enough to separate those Rare Candy? Then why would you be able to shuffle well enough after "declumping" them to give them a random chance at being paired up again? In your scenario, your deck is going to be unrandom either way. You are choosing the unrandom option that benefits you (Rare Candies spread instead of Rare Candies together). Simply try to find an alternative way to shuffle that spreads the cards without manipulating your deck.

It amazes me that so many of you do not understand why this is wrong.

 

[GodBlessAmerica]

The irony of this thread/topic is that, in my opinion at least, this is a waste of time too, because I don't think people are going to change the way the play because one of the 2 best players of all time says so.

I think it is something you are just going to have to deal with, Jason.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

It isn't cheating, because if it were then when you put your options for a card like Twins near the bottom of the deck in order to have all of your options next to each other, then that would be cheating as well. Furthermore 'declumping' cards, is used to decrease the odds of cards from sticking together, and yes it might be a result of poor shuffling, but I hardly see why that matters in context to anything enough to give people warnings, game loses, or even DQs, for. It's a harmless habit that might influence the game, but it will influence it in the same way as putting a few cards next to each other so you can organize your thoughts. If you aren't satisfied with the way they shuffle then shuffle your opponent's deck, the solution is that simple. People don't declump to cheat, people declump, because they believe it might stop dead draws, and it isn't something that significantly alters the game.

 

[Scottistru]

So you cannot shuffle well enough to separate those Rare Candy? Then why would you be able to shuffle well enough after "declumping" them to give them a random chance at being paired up again? In your scenario, your deck is going to be unrandom either way. You are choosing the unrandom option that benefits you (Rare Candies spread instead of Rare Candies together). Simply try to find an alternative way to shuffle that spreads the cards without manipulating your deck.

It amazes me that so many of you do not understand why this is wrong.

I believe what he is trying to say is that while playing, his hand get sweaty, causing cards to stick together. Even if his shuffling would sufficently randomize the deck, it may not be done with enough force pull these cards apart. Therefore, by declumping these cards, it makes the deck more randomized, as it evens the chance of these cards being next to one another. Since the declumping avoids unramdomized shuffles, it should in no way be considered cheating, assuming it is done in a timely fashion.

 

[baby mario]

It isn't cheating, because if it were then when you put your options for a card like Twins near the bottom of the deck in order to have all of your options next to each other, then that would be cheating as well.

Can you explain this a bit more?

I thought anything that was done to knowingly influence the position of a card in the deck would be cheating.

 

[Rambo]

I see where you're coming from, although I do not agree with it.

I see others do it, they show me 3 rare candies next to each other, show it to me, I laugh and let him or her re-organise it, it's not fun watching your opponent play a game with 3 dead draws in a row, or even 3 or the best draws possible for them.

As long as that person lets their opponent acknowledge why they're doing it, I believe it should be fine, however if I see someone with their hands under the table with their deck, re-organising it, then I'd agree something is wrong.

The post makes you seem a bit paranoid if I'm going to be honest.
The post is also pointless, no one reading this thread will change their playstyle, change other people's playstyles, and most players won't have read this post.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Can you explain this a bit more?

I thought anything that was done to knowingly influence the position of a card in the deck would be cheating.

Many players while searching for cards such as Collector will place their options next to each other, and often near the bottom of their deck, and then choose what they want to get from there, especially if they need to think the choice through, thus effectively reorganizing the deck, which in my mind shouldn't be considered any different from 'declumping'

 

[TheDarkTwins]

You are still wasting time, Drew - just in your scenario it's only a very small amount of time.

That's not entirely true, is it Jason. If I stay within then amount of time I'm allowed to search my deck, and I declump WHILE looking, I'm not wasting any time. The other fact is how do you know that me "wasting time" as you put it, doesn't hurt me in the end as cause me to lose. You're not going to get me to agree with you on this Jason. You have had some good points in the past in other subjects, but this isn't one of them.

Drew

 

[djjoe227]

It isn't cheating, because if it were then when you put your options for a card like Twins near the bottom of the deck in order to have all of your options next to each other, then that would be cheating as well. Furthermore 'declumping' cards, is used to decrease the odds of cards from sticking together, and yes it might be a result of poor shuffling, but I hardly see why that matters in context to anything enough to give people warnings, game loses, or even DQs, for. It's a harmless habit that might influence the game, but it will influence it in the same way as putting a few cards next to each other so you can organize your thoughts. If you aren't satisfied with the way they shuffle then shuffle your opponent's deck, the solution is that simple. People don't declump to cheat, people declump, because they believe it might stop dead draws, and it isn't something that significantly alters the game.

Dead Draws are part of the game. A "Dead Draw" is only definable by the person playing it, and if the player is manipulating a certain outcome, the outcome is not randomized. It is an influenced result from a controlled action.


what many people here are failing to realize is that "Declumping" accomplishes two things, although only one is publicized. Firstly, obviously, you split up the cards from being together. That's great, for you. However, those cards go somewhere. Declumping cards means they get clumped together with other things. Not only are you manipulating a later draw, by not drawing the extra copies of cards, but you are manipulating the draws before and after it. Now it's an issue of, in the example of ZPS, instead of drawing 3x Zekrom, you can draw Zekrom, Pachirisu, AND Shaymin because none of those cards would theoretically be next to each other.

I agree fully with everything Ness is saying.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I was vague with the whole dead draw thing for a reason. A lot of this is vague to begin with, which is why I don't agree. I'd even go as far to say most people don't even use the reason I gave, because they don't even think about it. I've already expressed that this is a ridiculous complaint about player behavior. Sure it might alter the course of the game, but do you know what else does, shuffling, from how you shuffle to the number of time you shuffle, and even if your opponent cuts or shuffles, they all alter the course of the game, and the probability of the game, which is why I personally view this complaint as ridiculous. If we're going to start complaining about declumping, then why don't we start complaining about how people sit in their chair, or how people hold their cards. If you have a problem with behavior then kindly bring it up to your opponent, and continue with your game.

Also here:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=156235

 

[cpeterik]

...People don't declump to cheat, people declump, because they believe it might stop dead draws, and it isn't something that significantly alters the game.

Wow. You could not have proved Ness' point any better if your tried!

Don't you see, that if you are drawing dead in a game, you will likely lose because of how unfortunately your deck was randomized?

You shouldn't be allowed to 'declump' a cluster of dead draws in an attempt to draw into something favorable.

That would be like playing a deck that involves flipping a lot of coins, and after getting 9 tails in a row, you say "Oh man, I am getting really unlucky! Let me pull out my weighted dice.."

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Thank you for ignoring the final part of that excerpt in which I stated that it doesn't significantly alter the game, it means so much to me. And no the reasoning doesn't matter to me, they're in their right to do it and neither me nor you should be able to challenge it.

 

[cpeterik]

...I've already expressed that this is a ridiculous complaint about player behavior. Sure it might alter the course of the game, but do you know what else does, shuffling, from how you shuffle to the number of time you shuffle, and even if your opponent cuts or shuffles, they all alter the course of the game, and the probability of the game, which is why I personally view this complaint as ridiculous.

Shuffling and cutting is RANDOM.

Knowingly separating groups of cards is NOT RANDOM.

All of these problems would be solved by simply shuffling more diligently and more often.

 

[Pikabruce]

Studies have shown that it takes about 8 good riffle shuffles to randomize a normal deck of cards, so it should be the same for a Pokemon deck, and good mash shuffles. If your opponent declumps, just shuffle his deck 8 times.

 

[cpeterik]

Thank you for ignoring the final part of that excerpt in which I stated that it doesn't significantly alter the game, it means so much to me. And no the reasoning doesn't matter to me, they're in their right to do it and neither me nor you should be able to challenge it.

I didn't ignore it, in fact, I included it in the quote. :smile:
And it could significantly alter the state of the game, if it means you might win a game you should have lost.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Again, if you are dissatisfied with the way your opponent shuffle, then shuffle the deck when you are offered. The option is there for that exact reason. And no 'good shuffling' doesn't solve it, because it happens to all players, not just bad players, and then that goes into regulating even more of how a player behaves, which is ridiculous.

 

[Raen]

I'll just say this; if you declump, I will shuffle your deck thoroughly. In my mind, you might be cheating, and I'll treat your shuffling that way.

 

[Ness]

That's not entirely true, is it Jason. If I stay within then amount of time I'm allowed to search my deck, and I declump WHILE looking, I'm not wasting any time.

I stand corrected! I will now add "Pointlessly relocated cards" to the list of things declumping does for your superman-like ability to "declump" and simultaneously retrieve cards.

People don't declump to cheat, people declump, because they believe it might stop dead draws, and it isn't something that significantly alters the game.

You are allowed to manipulate your deck because it doesn't significantly alter the game?

I'll just say this; if you declump, I will shuffle your deck thoroughly. In my mind, you might be cheating, and I'll treat your shuffling that way.

As you should! Good for you.

Dead Draws are part of the game. A "Dead Draw" is only definable by the person playing it, and if the player is manipulating a certain outcome, the outcome is not randomized. It is an influenced result from a controlled action.

/thread

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Again countless things alter the game, ranging from the number of times you shuffle to the way you shuffle, to the order the cards are in to begin with, and even slight ordering of cards while searching one's deck, and no one bothers complaining about it, because it has an insignificant effect on the match. If you feel like declumping is such a despicable thing then shuffle the deck, there are safeguards already in place to prevent such cheating that you as the opponent can partake in, and going around saying people are cheating, because the way they conduct their deck is different than yours is not only ridiculous, but the rules don't support such a claim.