Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[eclipse]

That was a lot less activity than I thought. Hopefully, this game will be paused around Christmas and New Year's (especially the latter, 'cause of some of the stuff I'll be drinking).

Day 1 flip. Notice how the Enforcer's PM says something about communicating outside of the thread? Either they're some sort of informed mason group, or they're anti-town. If they were the former, then I find it very strange that not a single one of them came forward and said something during D1. Thus, I am inclined to think that they're an anti-town group.

If we focus on taking out Indies, the Wolves will just eat us for breakfast. I suggest we focus on scum hunting, but keep an eye on our Pokemon friends.

I agree with this sentiment.

Ahahaha forgive me; I've never played a game with this many players before so I'm a little overwhelmed. But expect an actual reply from me later, and thanks for the welcome! I'm going to have to take some elaborate notes to get all of the player names right,

The only Forest person who has a different name is Blitz (Crimsonsky). DarthPika was around for, like, half a game. The rest are residents here. Enjoy~!

Since their win condition is "Enforcers win" and not "town wins" then they can't exactly be helping the town win. I don't know if we should prioritize finding wolves over everythign else if we have several other factions. After all, more Indies have won these games than wolves. assuming pokemon have the win condition of "pokemon win" then that means they must at least indirectly oppose the town so shouldn't we go after them also? Especially with a pokemon claim that has been acting suspiscious (Vablakes)

What should YOU do? You decide that, not the rest of us.

REiaz -

I am willing to lynch anyone who doesn't have a Town Wins condition because we can only speculate as to what their actual win conditions are. Clearly, the wolves would be better as they are our known enemy, however any other faction could be just as dangerous.

Eclipse, CrimsonSky is not an inactive. He just posted to say he would be gone for a few days, which was more than a few days ago. He has more explaining to do.

Crimsonsky's connection isn't a steady one. He can be gone for rather long periods of time. Thus, if you don't see him for a few days, it means he's nowhere near a computer that can go online. Going after him because he has extremely limited access to an Internet connection looks incredibly scummy.

(everyone from the Forest knows this, so that's why none of us are ragging on him because of it)

With that, you are saying Jellyfisher was pro-town, yet the update says nothing about that. The front page says nothing about that. Speaking in such definites is never a good thing in a game where everything is unknown and in my eyes casts a shadow of doubt on you.



In any game of WW, the wolves have to have a majority win. Factions mean nothing from the viewpoint of a werewolf, and someone as experienced as you knows that. In that light, all you said was 'blah, blah, blah look I want to appear pro-town myself' with absolutely no substance.

So, I call bluff while the shadow surrounding you deepens...

VOTE: DragonClyne725

jellyfisher certainly didn't look like a good D1 lynch target. With no flip, I have to use my last read on him, which was closer to town than wolf. You're accusing DragonClyne of speaking in definitives while doing so yourself in the next paragraph down. I think your case on him is poorly thought-out, to put it politely.

Okay, been catching up on the happens and so far, I'm inclined to wait and see what Vablakes has to say to go with further his current argument. Other than that a few comments have been made that seem deceptively scummy if it weren't for the irregularity and variety of people posting them, so I'll put that down to my own over-eager eyes.

Please elaborate on those "deceptively scummy" comments.

I don't understand how you can make all these assumptions. There's no reason that the enforcers are "not very friendly" and the pokemon "might not be anti-town". Using logic, if they don't have the win condition "town wins" they're anti town. Also we have a claimed pokemon who seems to be acting suspiscious (vablakes) while no idea whp any wolves are. You seem to favor the pokemon while trying to make the other independent group (the enforcers) look more anti town. Which leads me to believe you're a pokemon who knows that your faction is antitown.

VoteragonClyne725

also, what's with this pointy finger thing? is it a speech impediment or what?

I think I covered my opinion of the Enforcers earlier. Check the first page; the Enforcers are NOT an independent group, or they wouldn't warrant a separate color. I have no idea how you managed those logic jumps, but that defense of the Enforcers does not do you any favors.

By inferring that jellyfisher was killed by a non-town you are, de-facto, saying that he was pro-town (because logically bad people kill good people).

Something else interesting (which I admittedly didn't pick up on earlier; thanks for having me revisit these posts) is that you immediately jumped to "Enforcer or other indie" as being his killer. Why not wolf? Maybe because you have info to KNOW FOR SURE wolves didn't kill him?

Yep. You're a wolf, and you have my vote regardless of how this day plays out.

According to you, crossfire CANNOT occur. Vig shots have hit townies in the past, and when I played games with multiple mafias, they've been known to shoot each other. I cannot comprehend how that first paragraph is even a point against DragonClyne. The second point is more stable, especially given DragonClyne's response to you. However, your case still strikes me as graspy.

Blitz, these people don't know you, so you'll have to explain things in excruciating detail.

I have a gut feeling that the Wolves ARE the Enforcers and there are a lot of Indies lurking about including these Pokemon. Of course, that's just my opinion (even though nobody reads me) and no one else can change it. BTW, I was semi-right about the 2 factions.

Yes. I'm a nobody. The same nobody that was on your tail for half of D1 for tunneling on subs. The first post would like to have a word about your Enforcer/Wolf theory.

From my analysis, the Enforcers don't look like a group that can win with the town. Thus, I have no objections to lynching them. Pokemon seem to be independent, so I don't think they're good lynch targets right now.

Vote TheKing

If I had a second vote, it would be on waynegg for pushing a DragonClyne lynch based on shaky logic.

 

[waynegg]

Going after DC purely for his reasoning on the different factions is founded on assumptions that just CANNOT be made at this point in the game.

I can get behind voting either one. As I've already said, I think both DC and SMP are scummy. However, you should understand that the case against DC isn't just for his reasoning on different factions. The reasons are about as solid as you can get on day two, actually.

1. He has subtly advocated getting rid of non-town, but also non-wolf, players from early on this game day gently urging the masses to seal the deal and end the game day early. It's very subtle and well played, but it's there all the same if you care to study his posts since the game resumed. He later comes out and flip-flops on this saying we should concentrate on wolves. In post 864 he starts out with go for wolves, and then try to find and eliminate any +1 NK first, and then finally back to focusing on wolves. All in the same post.

2. He obviously has info on the night kills which would most likely be because he's either a wolf or the one who killed the other. Either that or he has an ability that allows him to watch other player's night actions. From the way he's responded though, it feels more like the type of info from taking an active role in the killing.

That said, what there is on DC is nowhere nearly as solid as what there is on SMP. Playing the better odds here:

Unvote: Dragonclyne725

VOTE: SMP88

 

[DarthPika]

Well if you're not a townie I'm voting for you Voterohawk

I think you misread my post, and his post. Neither one of us was trying to infer that Prohawk is not a townie. We were talking about DC727. I'm not trying to say Prohawk is or isn't a townie, I don't know what he is. That being said, I do think you should change your vote because you clearly misunderstood the intent of those posts.

Eclipse, interesting points you brought up about the king. I'll go back over his other posts and see how they look now that we have some hindsight to work with.

Has anyone else noticed that Vablakes has COMPLETELY stopped posting as of late?

 

[Glaceon]

If you look at the first page, you will see 4 categories: Towns, Wolves, Enforcers, and Independents.

Independents are colored purple. Butter nut ninja is colored purple. Butter nut ninja is a Pokemon. His win condition is not "Giratina Wins", but Pokemon wins. Therefore, Pokemon are independents.

I'd say taking out Pokemon is a good strategy unless we think there is a 75% chance that our lynch will be a wolf.

 

[PMysterious]

Why would enforcers and wolves have different colors in the first post?

No one can change your mind on this one? Do you realize how dangerous that is? You need to be open to changing your mind if that change is warranted.

Why do you think no one "reads you"? Do you mean that no one reads what you post? That's wrong, and it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about something.

Never mind that now. Just didn't read the first post.

Yes, I realize how dangerous it can be you make it seem that no one can change my mind, but I don't care at all.

The reason why I think no one "reads me" is because they don't look at my posts at all, especially late game when I say stuff which is game changing information. Its actually helped Scum and hurt Town a lot. Because of my poor plays early on in the game, no one even considers reading my posts, and I get blamed for defeats because everyone thinks I did nothing to help.

 

[SMP88]

Going after DC purely for his reasoning on the different factions is founded on assumptions that just CANNOT be made at this point in the game. I think it's highly unlikely that there isn't a wolf faction. Until we know more about the other factions, the wolves should remain our biggest priority, as they are our biggest threat. They are the only faction that is guaranteed to have a consistent NK, and in this role madness style setup I'd say they probably have a few other tricks up their sleeves.

Sure the other factions may be a threat too, but we don't know that for sure. We shouldn't forget about them obviously, but by no means should we stop scum-hunting just to focus on either the enforces or the Pokemon. It is entirely possible that more than one faction can win this game. Or perhaps one faction has no interest in the town, and have a completely passive win condition that cannot be fulfilled until late game anyway (survival type etc). But until we start getting some role flips all this speculation will get us nowhere, and persecuting people for it is just as bad.

That being said, I like waynegg's post against SMP88. SMP88's post jumped from a lot less speculation to a lot more active distraction techniques. (IE, Let's all vote for Pokemon NOW) But his reply also irks me somewhat.

----------------
Originally Posted by SMP88 View Post
Cool story.


Opening with cool story. That's not what a passive/innocent townie would say. That's something much more likely to come from scum or another guilty party who's starting to get anxious but trying to appear tough.

Only problem is how exactly can the town win if the "Pokemon win" condition activates? Pokemon might not be anti-town in the same way wolves are (with night kills, etc.) but they still have a different win condition. Since we don't know exactly how this condition activates, the only way to be sure it doesn't is to not have any Pokemon. Until we figure out how the "Pokemon win" condition activates I see them as nearly as much of a threat to the town as the wolves.

And yes, we do have to find non town killing roles. Once again, Pokemon and Enforcers are trying to fulfill their win condition. Any of them with a killing role is a danger to the town since there's no guarantee that they will use it on a wolf.

First off, there's no guarantee a Town vig won't use their kill on a townie either, yet it's still recommended for them to use their role. Personally i'm not too fussed if there's some faction cross-fire early in the game to give us all some more info.

We must also look for the wolf killing role, but I have no idea how we're suppose to be finding any of these roles at this point in the game.

So you're just going to not bother scum-hunting at all, and instead try and pick off any seemingly easy targets that come your way. If you're so keen on pointing out why we should lynch Pokemon, maybe your efforts would be better vested actually analyzing other players.


The day is still young, but like I said, we currently have 2 leads (though I do have suspicions on others)
Care to tell?
that are based on claims to character types that we currently know to have a win condition that isn't "Town wins". Call it a pitch if you want, but until we can gather more evidence to find and lynch a wolf or figure out how the other faction's win conditions activate I don't see why we shouldn't go after people who have characters that fit the "Pokemon win" condition.
See again, this alone catches my attention. The phrase "we should go after" implies taking advantage of mob mentality to try and pull off a quick bandwagon, without actually using the day to properly discuss decisions. "Going after" anyone is never a good idea and it's what caused the town to lose last game.

Also, I haven't rushed any sort of vote. I've been suspicious of vablakes since post 820.
------------------------------------

I think that'll do it for me

Vote: SMP88

The quoting doesn't work correctly with your bolded responses, but I'll still respond to each one.

How does "cool story" correspond to a scum tell? I was opening my post with the same sort of sarcasm that waynegg did. He must be scum then because he resorted to singing and using a baseball analogy.

A town vig role is one of the weaker early game roles (since alignments usually aren't know at this time), yet great late game roles (since they can start picking off confirmed wolves at this time). A Pokemon or enforcer killing role is dangerous because their late game doesn't have to consist of them going against wolves, there's nothing stopping them from killing town members, especially if they don't need the town for their win condition, and by late game there usually are multiple people who are at least soft confirmed as town.

Nowhere did I say we shouldn't be scum hunting. I said I don't know how we'd be able to find the killing roles at this point. If you have some way to distinguish between a wolf roleblocker and a wolf alpha right now I'd love to hear it.

Have you not read any of my previous posts? I make multiple notes on my suspicions throughout the day.
scorri - 831
I start my suspicions today on vablakes and PP101 - 820
I was suspicious of vablakes yesterday and was suspicious of vegi too - 459
I have other smaller suspicions that I'm keeping track of that I'll post about as I get more info. I'm not going to release my entire list right now though.

I don't think you read that entire sentence. I say we should "go after" (replace this with "vote for" if you want, it means the same thing to me) Pokemon until we can gather more evidence to find and lynch a wolf. This phrase implies that we should take the rest of the day gather more evidence to find and lynch a wolf, but until then, vote for Pokemon, since right now we know of them to have a different win condition. I also say we should figure out how the other faction's win conditions activate, which also implies that we use the rest of the day productively.

I can get behind voting either one. As I've already said, I think both DC and SMP are scummy. However, you should understand that the case against DC isn't just for his reasoning on different factions. The reasons are about as solid as you can get on day two, actually.

1. He has subtly advocated getting rid of non-town, but also non-wolf, players from early on this game day gently urging the masses to seal the deal and end the game day early. It's very subtle and well played, but it's there all the same if you care to study his posts since the game resumed. He later comes out and flip-flops on this saying we should concentrate on wolves. In post 864 he starts out with go for wolves, and then try to find and eliminate any +1 NK first, and then finally back to focusing on wolves. All in the same post.

2. He obviously has info on the night kills which would most likely be because he's either a wolf or the one who killed the other. Either that or he has an ability that allows him to watch other player's night actions. From the way he's responded though, it feels more like the type of info from taking an active role in the killing.

That said, what there is on DC is nowhere nearly as solid as what there is on SMP. Playing the better odds here:

Unvote: Dragonclyne725

VOTE: SMP88

You spend the entire post showing how DC is scummy and then unvote him and vote for me? You say the reasons for voting for DC is as solid as you can get, but then say that it's nowhere near as solid as the reasons to vote for me? At least be consistent in your own post.

 

[Pikamaster]

For those of you who have been asking if the day is going to be paused for Christmas. The answer is no, as the day was made to be 10 real days for everyone traveling and doing things for Christmas.

As for New Years, the night will probably be extended by a day or two, but not too long because I'm taking a 2 week class in the winter semester and LEX is busy, as well.

 

[TheKing]

Day 1 flip. Notice how the Enforcer's PM says something about communicating outside of the thread? Either they're some sort of informed mason group, or they're anti-town. If they were the former, then I find it very strange that not a single one of them came forward and said something during D1. Thus, I am inclined to think that they're an anti-town group.



I agree with this sentiment.

Conversely, if we focus on the wolves, then the independent groups will "eat us for breakfast" especially when one of them appears to have a killing role. Read some of the past games on here, independents have won far more games than the wolves ever had.

What should YOU do? You decide that, not the rest of us.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Even if I am am completely cemented on what I should do, I'd need others agreeing with me or it would get nowhere. *cough*pm*cough*

I think I covered my opinion of the Enforcers earlier. Check the first page; the Enforcers are NOT an independent group, or they wouldn't warrant a separate color. I have no idea how you managed those logic jumps, but that defense of the Enforcers does not do you any favors.

I refer to independents as not aligned with the town or the wolves (hence the term independent)not sure why this makes a difference to you, they're both antitown regardless of name if they aren't part of the town. (those "logical jumps", more like a step on the path of critical thinking)

From my analysis, the Enforcers don't look like a group that can win with the town. Thus, I have no objections to lynching them. Pokemon seem to be independent, so I don't think they're good lynch targets right now.

What gave you the hint? Possibly the fact that their win condition wasn't "town wins"? Oh wait, there's another group that don't have that win condition, but for some reason they're "independent" so that means they're ok right? (now what was that about logic jumps?) It shouldn't matter what they are called, as long as they are not part of the town, they're anti town. I'm not saying to solely focus on the pokemon, but that to brush aside as if they are harmless is a bad idea.

Vote TheKing

If I had a second vote, it would be on waynegg for pushing a DragonClyne lynch based on shaky logic.

Comments in bold.

 

[Sandslash7]

Never mind that now. Just didn't read the first post.

Yes, I realize how dangerous it can be you make it seem that no one can change my mind, but I don't care at all.

The reason why I think no one "reads me" is because they don't look at my posts at all, especially late game when I say stuff which is game changing information. Its actually helped Scum and hurt Town a lot. Because of my poor plays early on in the game, no one even considers reading my posts, and I get blamed for defeats because everyone thinks I did nothing to help.

PMysterious


You need to deal with this shoulder-chip right now.

Do you not remember Absol's post LAST GAME DAY where he elucidated very well that your posts do matter, and that he (along with everyone else, I will add) reads your posts? Not to mention PH's talk about you deciding a game on MS for the town by correctly voting as last vote on two consecutive LyLos, causing a town win.

I will not speak about this again, because it is not in-game related, but get that chip off your shoulder.



However your attitude about not being willing to at least consider yourself incorrect or worth changing your mind about is very dangerous. Wolves can easily turn that into a free lynch.

A town vig role is one of the weaker early game roles (since alignments usually aren't know at this time), yet great late game roles (since they can start picking off confirmed wolves at this time). A Pokemon or enforcer killing role is dangerous because their late game doesn't have to consist of them going against wolves, there's nothing stopping them from killing town members, especially if they don't need the town for their win condition, and by late game there usually are multiple people who are at least soft confirmed as town.

WW IX says otherwise.

Theoretically town vig is weaker early, based only on statistics. But, it is very strong in practice.

And if the kill role is anti-town, it is strong ALL game, not just late game.

 

[thunderjolt]

Not to speak for Prohawk, but it seems that since he is so strongly defending the other factions, it seems he IS one of those factions.

The fact that when you said, “he,” and the last proper noun you used was, “Prohawk,” makes it seem as if you are saying Prohawk is one of those factions. Then Prohawk agreed with you, also not making it clear that the post was not about him. I’d have to agree with G landers that I read that as saying Prohawk is not town, and I still do to an extent. This may be because I had some awesome English teachers in grade school, however.

Furthermore, on the topic of going after wolves/pokemon/enforcers, I say we go after the wolves. I am a bit wary of those who said otherwise. This game is called Werewolf for a reason.

@PM—I think we’ve all come to realize that you have little nuggets of gold in a lot of the things you say. I do, in fact, read your posts.

 

[Vablakes]

Hey, sorry I haven't been posting. I have been super busy whith Christmas stuff, and I'll be more active after Christmas. For now, however, I can't really be very active.

 

[Benzo]

I am surprised that no one has looked a little into the "Enforcers" much- but I will say that when I first saw the role-flip, my memory was jogged a little. I know I have heard this somewhere, perhaps an old TV show or comic. Simple Google search, and - comic book it was. The Enforcers are assassins, and Spider Man has been the main threat to that group. Spider Man defeated this group many times, even though the group had many criminal alliances.

Spider Man can not really be taken as good or bad, but three things about Spider Man that sort of makes me think the possibility he is in the game:

Spider Man has this thing with "webbing" a criminal and hanging him upside down for the Cops to come pick up the criminal. Sort of a signiture move. Some one in the up date tied a person up on the roof. Why the roof? Possible?
Spider Man is considered Town Friendly, as he is a crime fighter. He protects the town.
Spider Man has defeated the Enforcers over and over again. So many times, the Enforcers teamed up with other criminals for revenge.

Not saying that Spider Man is goody-goody, all super hero's at one time or another have done things on a selfish level, or even killed people at times.

The Enforcers on the other hand- I wont go into detail- feel free to google it, you could read for days on the ties/connections this gruop has with all sorts of criminal orginizations.

Personally- the Wolves are the biggest threat, I will not hesitate to lynch a good enough solid lead on other possible threats other then the wolves who get flushed out in the hunt for wolves.

Let the Wolves and Enforcers duke it out. There is no real true "one factor should help another to eliminate the biggest threat"- like that has ever worked out where innocents get killed while there is a struggle for power and control.

Lynching. Our biggest day time weapon against the wolves. Yet us townies are looking divided and not united by trying to figure out who is the biggest threat. You would think that the roles for each factor would be equiped well enough to have some sort of way to protect them selves from other factors. Wolves have us townies who can lynch, and possible look into alliance/role, possible help from rogue/indie/vig-what ever. We townies should not souly rely on help from those possible assistants to bail us out. The wolves are in competition with another factor- the Enforcers. We should consider that the wolves have a way to deflect/redirect as a defence. The wolves can not escape the rope people!

The Enforcers are just as equiped with offence and defence as well. Why would this group be any different then the wolves? They are, they do not worry about the rope like the wolves do. Just how I see it anyways.

I am not in favor of any factor/group that does not have a Town Wins condition. We need to seriously look at who is a good WOLF lynch, regardless. The Wolves need to work harder at staying alive because they don't just have us townies on their tails, but a second group looking to do the same. In time, the second group will fall because the wolves will have to use their night kill on those who they think are Enforcers. Any one see my point?

As far as Wolves go, Waynegg- I once pointed out that your on the scum side. I will point it out that again I see scummyness in you. Not Enforcer- Wolf scummyness. You really think that because you see two people as being scummy (DC and SM88), set them up like you did, and when someone points out some good logic and combined with the two you have in question reply- that you can use the tactic of "going for the better"?
Please, feel free to continue to use subliminal wording, influence the thoughts of others so they can not draw a conclusion of their own about a player(s), and expect that everyone will see your efforts as being townie. I am not bying it, and I am not all that worried about second guessing my own first few reads on you.

VOTE: WAYNEGG

I see you as Wolf right now. And, depending on who comes to defend you- I will ignore them because it is only you who needs to convince me that my reads are incorrect, and that what you are doing is in the best interest of the town. Please respond.


As far as Pokemon with a Win condition: Honestly I can not really see it past anything other then Garatine was an Indie. A dead Pokemon who can not die again who can only drag one person down, seems like a Pokemon wins his own situation to me.

Now, for another last thought- Jellyfisher.
I am not all that familuar with "janitor" as far as common appearence in WW games. But I do not think that a janitor is needed in a game like this. With 3 main (Wolf, Town, Enforcer) groups that are known as it is- who needs to hide some bodies as a cover up with so many "what if's" such as Indies, Vig, +1 NK?
Seems to me rather pointless to have to hide roles when so many people/players are already in communication. I say that because the wolfs talk and the Enforcers talk, and posiible little groups who can talk (KoTRT maybe?, don't know)- What if there is a role that can steal other players roles?
Thought on that?

My vote holds on Waynegg for now, I will be rather busy the next few days, as well I am sure so will a good number of people. I am resevered poster as it is, so if I am sort of silent- I like to see and gather info as per my normal playstyle in that manner, and being busy is a bonus factor if I am not able to jump right on and post more on this for the short time being.

If I am not able to post in the next few days- Happy days to you all!

 

[scorri]

As far as Pokemon with a Win condition: Honestly I can not really see it past anything other then Garatine was an Indie. A dead Pokemon who can not die again who can only drag one person down, seems like a Pokemon wins his own situation to me.

scorri does not like this quote. scorri looks at the wincon "Pokemon Win" and scorri thinks "If Giratina was an indie, his role is not a very useful one unless he needs to bring down a specific person." scorri also looks at that wincon and doesn't see it as an indie wincon, but rater a team wincon. scorri is keeping an eye on you.

 

[pokemonfreak5]

I can get behind voting either one. As I've already said, I think both DC and SMP are scummy. However, you should understand that the case against DC isn't just for his reasoning on different factions. The reasons are about as solid as you can get on day two, actually.

1. He has subtly advocated getting rid of non-town, but also non-wolf, players from early on this game day gently urging the masses to seal the deal and end the game day early. It's very subtle and well played, but it's there all the same if you care to study his posts since the game resumed. He later comes out and flip-flops on this saying we should concentrate on wolves. In post 864 he starts out with go for wolves, and then try to find and eliminate any +1 NK first, and then finally back to focusing on wolves. All in the same post.

2. He obviously has info on the night kills which would most likely be because he's either a wolf or the one who killed the other. Either that or he has an ability that allows him to watch other player's night actions. From the way he's responded though, it feels more like the type of info from taking an active role in the killing.

That said, what there is on DC is nowhere nearly as solid as what there is on SMP. Playing the better odds here:

Unvote: Dragonclyne725

VOTE: SMP88

'Dat Flip.

I love it when scum take the bait.

Benzo summed it up quite nicely

You really think that because you see two people as being scummy (DC and SM88), set them up like you did, and when someone points out some good logic and combined with the two you have in question reply- that you can use the tactic of "going for the better"?
Please, feel free to continue to use subliminal wording, influence the thoughts of others so they can not draw a conclusion of their own about a player(s), and expect that everyone will see your efforts as being townie. I am not bying it, and I am not all that worried about second guessing my own first few reads on you.

Unvote: SMP88
Vote: Waynegg

@SMP, my read on you was and still is "leans non-town". It's difficult to explain but the "going after" and the "cool story" calls were the main tells to me. Just after playing lots of games in a row as a wolf, I know how it affects your lines of thought and the phrasing you use. They were just a minor tell to me.

However Waynegg, you are flip flopping to go for the easiest lynch which seemingly has the most town support. Care to explain why?

 

[pokemonplayer101]

As far as Pokemon with a Win condition: Honestly I can not really see it past anything other then Garatine was an Indie. A dead Pokemon who can not die again who can only drag one person down, seems like a Pokemon wins his own situation to me.

scorri does not like this quote. scorri looks at the wincon "Pokemon Win" and scorri thinks "If Giratina was an indie, his role is not a very useful one unless he needs to bring down a specific person." scorri also looks at that wincon and doesn't see it as an indie wincon, but rater a team wincon. scorri is keeping an eye on you.

While I agree with you when you say "Pokemon Win" sounds like a team Win Condition, I fail to see why you think Benzo is looking suspicious. Knowing that Giratina (forgot who the player was) was an Indie, I don't think there can be more than 1 or 2 other team members of his. Are you trying to say Benzo is one of those people? I think I'll need a bit more evidence than that.

As far as Wolves go, Waynegg- I once pointed out that your on the scum side. I will point it out again I see scummyness in you. Not Enforcer- Wolf scummyness. You really think that because you see two people as being scummy (DC and SM88), set them up like you did, and when someone points out some good logic and combined with the two you have in question reply- that you can use the tactic of "going for the better"? Please, feel free to continue to use subliminal wording, influence the thoughts of others so they can not draw a conclusion of their own about a player(s), and expect that everyone will see your efforts as being townie. I am not bying it, and I am not all that worried about second guessing my own first few reads on you.

VOTE: WAYNEGG

Now with that said, why do you think Waynegg is scum? I see no reason why he should be voted for, atm. My read on him is null.

I love it when scum take that bait.

What bait? I'm confused, here.
Posted with mobile style....

 

[waynegg]

As far as Wolves go, Waynegg- I once pointed out that your on the scum side. I will point it out that again I see scummyness in you. Not Enforcer- Wolf scummyness. You really think that because you see two people as being scummy (DC and SM88), set them up like you did, and when someone points out some good logic and combined with the two you have in question reply- that you can use the tactic of "going for the better"?
Please, feel free to continue to use subliminal wording, influence the thoughts of others so they can not draw a conclusion of their own about a player(s), and expect that everyone will see your efforts as being townie. I am not bying it, and I am not all that worried about second guessing my own first few reads on you.

VOTE: WAYNEGG

I see you as Wolf right now. And, depending on who comes to defend you- I will ignore them because it is only you who needs to convince me that my reads are incorrect, and that what you are doing is in the best interest of the town. Please respond.

Set-up? There's nothing to set up. I simply quoted what they said of there own free will, without any prompting from me, and pointed out where what they were saying sounded more than a bit fishy. Others came along and agreed there was something not quite right about. Some voted, some are obviously waiting for more convincing.

As to changing my vote. What of it? I think both show signs of being anti-town, but as pokefreak5 pointed out (quoted below) SMP88 feels more concrete than Dragonclyne. The lol of it is, that for seeing things from his point of view he decides to bandwagon a vote my way just after you voted for me

Going after DC purely for his reasoning on the different factions is founded on assumptions that just CANNOT be made at this point in the game. I think it's highly unlikely that there isn't a wolf faction. Until we know more about the other factions, the wolves should remain our biggest priority, as they are our biggest threat. They are the only faction that is guaranteed to have a consistent NK, and in this role madness style setup I'd say they probably have a few other tricks up their sleeves.

Sure the other factions may be a threat too, but we don't know that for sure. We shouldn't forget about them obviously, but by no means should we stop scum-hunting just to focus on either the enforces or the Pokemon. It is entirely possible that more than one faction can win this game. Or perhaps one faction has no interest in the town, and have a completely passive win condition that cannot be fulfilled until late game anyway (survival type etc). But until we start getting some role flips all this speculation will get us nowhere, and persecuting people for it is just as bad.

That being said, I like waynegg's post against SMP88. SMP88's post jumped from a lot less speculation to a lot more active distraction techniques. (IE, Let's all vote for Pokemon NOW) But his reply also irks me somewhat.



I think that'll do it for me

Vote: SMP88

Now, on to pokemonfreak's concerns...

'Dat Flip.

I love it when scum take the bait.

Benzo summed it up quite nicely



Unvote: SMP88
Vote: Waynegg

I have a story I would like to share with you about a pot and a kettle...

By the logic you use here, you should be voting for yourself. To say that is a wolf tactic out of one side of your head, and then use that tactic IN THE EXACT SAME POST from the other side is really pretty laughable.

 

[DragonClyne725]

The logic I was using was that if you are saying Pokemon can't have another killing role because of one role flip why can't we use the enforcer role flip to say that they are all healer types? My analogy was just to show that we can't base roles off of just one role flip.

The analogy is nice, but the way you got there doesn't make too much sense next to what I was saying. Saying that Pokemon probably wouldn't have another killing role in no way leads to every Enforcer being a healer.

For turning what I said into meaning something completely illogical:

Angry Pointy Finger: SMP88

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don’t think we can count on the wolves to help the town take out other factions. It would be nice, but it isn’t something we can rely on.

As I read, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of what DC has to say.

Well, I'm sorry that you disagree with me. We shouldn't rely on the Wolves to "help" the Town, but we should know that they want other killing roles gone as well. For example, someone specifically searching for Indie/other killing roles and not searching for Wolves might be scum, much like SMP88 demonstrates in post #903.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. He has subtly advocated getting rid of non-town, but also non-wolf, players from early on this game day gently urging the masses to seal the deal and end the game day early. It's very subtle and well played, but it's there all the same if you care to study his posts since the game resumed. He later comes out and flip-flops on this saying we should concentrate on wolves. In post 864 he starts out with go for wolves, and then try to find and eliminate any +1 NK first, and then finally back to focusing on wolves. All in the same post.

Where have I been advocating/urging to "seal the deal" and "end the day"? If you have studied my posts since the game resumed (which, I am assuming you have since you made that comment), would you care to point out which of my posts are advocating a quick end to the Day?

Also, I'm not sure where you got your "facts" about post 864. Here is the entire post:

Jellyfisher- Seems odd that he just up and died, like vaporized into oblivion. Lost world perhaps?

Possibly Lost World, though not probable since Giratina's dead. All we know is Jelly's gone and we don't know his alignment.
Not at all "go for wolves". Adding my thoughts in with what Benzo stated.

Now, we know of a bunch of different factions, and so far the only one (unless I missed something) that had a confirmed win condition aside from "town wins" was a Pokemon. But we have to look at Giratina: he hates humans, and would want them destroyed. Latias has nothing against them.

We know for sure that we have the following win conditions:

• Enforcers Win
• Pokemon Win
• Town Wins

Most likely on the list as well will be a "Wolves Win" win condition, but we have yet to see one. Also, we have yet to see if KotRT have a separate win condition.

Response to Vablakes' post saying we only had 1 confirmed win condition aside from "Town Wins". I explain that we have Enforcers, Pokemon, Town, and Wolves, and have yet to see if there is a separate win condition for KotRT. Not at all "eliminate any +1 NK" like you said.

And you know, Celebi was a good and nice Pokemon too, until it was caught with a Dark Ball and used for evil (sorry for the spoiler y'all). Saying something like, "But Latias is a nice Pokemon!", isn't going to get you cleared from suspicion in this game.

My two cents on Vablakes argument that he was Town because he was Latias.

I'm not sure what "flip-flopping" you are referring to.

2. He obviously has info on the night kills which would most likely be because he's either a wolf or the one who killed the other. Either that or he has an ability that allows him to watch other player's night actions. From the way he's responded though, it feels more like the type of info from taking an active role in the killing.

Did you not bother to read post #896? I am no Wolf, nor am I Jelly's killer. I don't see the arguments you used against me as logical. Your original argument against me:

With that, you are saying Jellyfisher was pro-town, yet the update says nothing about that. The front page says nothing about that. Speaking in such definites is never a good thing in a game where everything is unknown and in my eyes casts a shadow of doubt on you.

This was in response to my saying: "I see there being a greater probability that Jelly's killer was either an Enforcer (leading to them not being all friendly) or another type of Indie we have yet to see (which is entirely possible)." You took my saying Jelly was likely to have been killed by an Indie/other to mean that I believed Jelly was guaranteed "pro-Town", which would "automatically" make me a Wolf. Of course, you completely ignore my statement that I assumed Kayle's killer was the Wolves, and continue to attack me.

You also state that "Factions mean nothing from the viewpoint of a werewolf", and that I should know as much and am simply trying to "appear pro-town myself". This is not true. If another faction has a killing role, Wolves would be very concerned with said group, as there is the chance that one of their own will be killed at Night, which can possibly lead to Townies connecting dots and identifying other Wolves through interactions.

Last thing. You clearly seem to think I am scum...

Yep. You're a wolf, and you have my vote regardless of how this day plays out.

...but suddenly, in the same post you use to "prove" I'm scum...I'm not...

That said, what there is on DC is nowhere nearly as solid as what there is on SMP. Playing the better odds here

Maybe I'm just lost with your flip-flopping.


Anyways, I don't like how you jumped on me using weak logic, in post #891 tried to use "basic psychology" to drive your attack further, and then suddenly drop your argument when something "better" came along.

Vote: waynegg

 

[G landers]

I think you misread my post, and his post. Neither one of us was trying to infer that Prohawk is not a townie. We were talking about DC727. I'm not trying to say Prohawk is or isn't a townie, I don't know what he is. That being said, I do think you should change your vote because you clearly misunderstood the intent of those posts.

Eclipse, interesting points you brought up about the king. I'll go back over his other posts and see how they look now that we have some hindsight to work with.

Has anyone else noticed that Vablakes has COMPLETELY stopped posting as of late?

You're both correct sorry I did indeed misread both posts.

Unvoterohawk
Voteragonclyne727

 

[Human Destroyer]

Okay if this post is disorganized I'm sorry but I'm a little pressed for time and I'm kind of reading backwards through the thread.

AAM get in here, I know you're out there.

Anyway uh let's see what we're do...we're still discussing this. Why Why WHY.

Guys, it's really simple. Lynch people that don't have a Town win condition. That's all there is to it. Stop tunneling Wolves/Enforcers/Indies/whoever, and keep them all in mind when we lynch.

Benzo is obvtown.

I still think it's possible Indies can be 3rd party, but we can't be sure without more information.

PF5 is always scum.

@PF5: Same thing as PP101, what bait?

Scorri, that is a silly assumption and I recommend you don't keep going with that line of thought. (the one about Giratina having team win condition and so it must have a team and that makes Benzo scummy somehow)

I think PF5 might be word twisting and/or seeing things that aren't in SMP's post ("Cool story." as a scumtell? Really?), but maybe it's just me.

PM stop thinking people don't read you, and just contribute with what you think. Don't even comment on such, just give your thoughts on topics being discussed.

Oh god G landers, you're reading into a scumslip, which is more often than not wrong. Heck, I'd hardly even call that a scumslip.

Levity, I swear I know you from somewhere. EpicMafia?

Not sure I like eclipse's defenses of Crimsonsky, but it may just be a Serene's Forest thing so I'm not going to read too much into it.

PikaJewel's lack of content hurts me to look at. Can I get some content from this corner?

ProHawk, G landers was VI (is that the right term?) last game, I wouldn't read too much into that.

LOL

Pretty sure DarthPika and ProHawk are town too.

I would get on jpulice for lurking today, but I think there are bigger fish to fry right now.

Alright I'm done. This is the most disorganized post I'll ever make. If there's something I didn't comment on that I probably should've let me know.

Unvote: Arcanine/Arbok Master
Vote: pokemonfreak5

Reason: Seeing scumtells in things that just aren't there. Particularly that "cool story" thing.

 

[waynegg]

937

Show me one place where I said I don't think you're scum. You won't find it though because I maintain that you appear to be wolfy. SMP simply looks worse so I changed my vote. That doesn't mean you're off the radar.

I'm sure the town can see through the wolf wagon you guys are very obviously trying to get rolling.