Net decking and SotG...

[brendan2236]

Here's my opinion on Netdecking:

There are thousands of players, yet only about 20 decks at a given time that can legitimately win a tournament. Mathematically, there has to be coppies of the same deck. Anyone that thinks every player in the game should play a different deck has no idea about how this game works, and probably doesn't even know how to spell his/her name. Netdecking is inevitable, but the thing that ISNT inevitable is what decks get leaked.

Let's discuss Jimmy's Destiny for instance. Anyone who PMs Jimmy for the list, and gets denied, is 10000% in the wrong for having sour grapes about it. People aren't expected to give out their lists. When you're playing to win, the only thing you have going for you is your skill, and list. Losing the secrecy on your list is such a big disadvantage, its SICK. So yea, nobody is ever "mean" or "anti-sotg" for not giving out a list. It's the same thing as showing hole cards in Poker. You're NEVER expected to show your hole cards in Poker, and are actually considered an idiot if you do. Asking someone to show you their hole cards in Poker after the hand is one of the rudest anti-sotg things you can do. If you push it too, after they say no, everyone at the table will hate you for the rest of the session, and never show you anything ever again.

Say Jimmy WAS to post his Destiny list though. At this point, it's 100% acceptable to netdeck the **** out of it (I know I would!). You'd be a fool not to take this free information and use it to your advantage in any possible way. After it's posted, Jimmy would be 100% in the wrong if he ever called someone a "dumb netdecker" for copying his list. HE POSTED IT! Of course it's going to get coppied.

Storekeeper: Hello Sir! We have a special on top secret info today! It's FREE! Would you like some FREE top secret info for FREE?

Idiot shopper: No thank you. I would not like any FREE secret info for FREE which will help me win more games for FREE. I would rather NOT have the FREE info and make it HARDER for me to win my games.

Wow, nice reply, could not have said it better myself.

 

[The Gorn]

Doesn't MtG publish the decklists of tournament winnners? We wouldn't be having this discussion if PtO (Pokemon the Obsession) did the same thing.

But whether it's "netdecking" or not, I'm just amazed at how many people play nothing but archetypes. I know people who have won numerous tournaments playing nothing but decks that other people developed. That's not netdecking? If not, it's something that is a close relative and worthy of inclusion in any discussion on netdecking.

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

You play to win the game!



Anyone with half a brain will choose the deck that gives them the best chance to win any event. Why does it matter if that deck is a brand-new rogue, or something everyone knows about?

I don't see anything on the POP website that says netdeckers win less than non-netdeckers. SO WHY NOT?

I don't see anythign in the SotG about 'originality', so why does being unoriginal matter?



Netdeckers never win anyway. I love seeing all those un-TecHed Metanites at a major tournament, and knowing that I can easily outplay them all.



PS. If anyone is REALLY annoying you, you could simply block all their PMs.

 

[ShadowCard]

My feeling about net-decking is this: once you play a deck or leak a list, it's out there, and it's not your property anymore. You can debate who made it, whatever, and that's fine, but I don't see how copying someone else is "wrong" - the decklist isn't intellectual property per-se.

If you create something, it is your intellectual property and is automatically copyrighted to you. If I write a song and put it on YouTube, I hold the copyright and it is my intellectual property. It doesn't have to be official with a patent.

If you want to publish your deck, then that is begging to get netdecked. If you have a problem with it, don't publish your list. No one else knows your deck numbers unless you've told them, so don't tell them. If you think netdeckers should feel shame for netdecking, some can sleep with that shame (with the trophy on their shelf ).

POP seems to think it is fine to netdeck, otherwise they wouldn't print the World Champion decks.

 

[desert eagle]

If you create something, it is your intellectual property and is automatically copyrighted to you. If I write a song and put it on YouTube, I hold the copyright and it is my intellectual property. It doesn't have to be official with a patent.

If you want to publish your deck, then that is begging to get netdecked. If you have a problem with it, don't publish your list. No one else knows your deck numbers unless you've told them, so don't tell them. If you think netdeckers should feel shame for netdecking, some can sleep with that shame (with the trophy on their shelf ).

POP seems to think it is fine to netdeck, otherwise they wouldn't print the World Champion decks.

Ehh.. world champion decks aren't even modified legal

 

[jesschow12]

go play sealed pack,they cant netdeck from there.....

 

[Darkwalker]

This might be a little off topic, but it's still relevant to the discussion. Jimmy created, or helped create, Destiny recently. This created quite a stir on the forums as to what Destiny actually consisted of. Given that it was a "secret deck" (and still is to some extent) that did well at several States many people wanted to know what this new deck was. Some of those people obviously just wanted to copy the deck card for card and play it as is (Netdecking). Others are more interested in what makes Desinty work, what it's weaknesses are, what it's strengths are, how they might alter it to make it different and possibly better. Still others want to know about the deck to take it's effect into the metagame for future tournaments that might contain said deck or variations on that deck.
While I persoanlly would never netdeck myself (I like tinkering with things, sometimes a bit too much) I'm not going to judge someone who does netdeck. Different people have different skill sets, some are very good techincal players who just don't get the gist of what makes a great deck work, some are brilliant deck builders who constantly misplay when the pressure is on during a tournament. The few who have both of those skill sets rise above the rest as they can not only outplay their opponents, but outthink them as well. No matter how good a technical player someone might be, and no matter how good a decklist might be that that person is playing with, chances are the actual deck builder would have an edge over someone who just plays the flavor of the month "secret deck" gotten off of a forum.
If Destiny does indeed become an Archtype deck in the future, some people will netdeck it. Most, I have to believe, will do what has been done with the other archtypes, though, which is to keep the core concepts of the deck then alter the rest to fit their playstyle or the precieved metagame.

 

[ShadowCard]

Ehh.. world champion decks aren't even modified legal

But you can copy them completely if you wanted to. Also, some of the major component pokemon are still legal, like the ludicargo deck. You'd just have to replace the non-Modified trainers in the deck.

This might be a little off topic, but it's still relevant to the discussion. Jimmy created, or helped create, Destiny recently. This created quite a stir on the forums as to what Destiny actually consisted of.

I remember that thread. Seemed like people were talking about two different decks.
According to POP, once a deck is played, its contents are open knowledge. This is because decks change so frequently from tournament to tournament, knowing what is in a deck strictly to the deck list will not be much of a help to anyone copying it (in theory).

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

I’ve only been at this Pokemon TCG gig since late last November. I went to my first City Tournament in mid December with a Meganium d – Blastoise deck that, frankly, had a crummy trainer line ... but I had been lurking here and at PokeBeach and, from posted decklists, had a basic idea of how to build things right even though my card selection stunk. I didn’t have the cards to netdeck anything, but simply reading the posted lists helped me build a deck that actually won a game.

By the times States rolled around I had a lot more play experience, had spent a small fortune on cards. I had been working on a rogue that happened to contain both Nidoqueen d and Flygon d in small lines. With literally less than a week to go I realized that my rogue had a rather major flaw and that I was going to have to run something different. I had no time to build and test something else of my own. Friday afternoon two Flygon ex d cards that I had ordered for my younger son arrived in the mail giving us a grand total of 3. My son was too sick to go and I realized that with a little work I could convert my rogue into a Royalty Flygon deck using the new cards. I did exactly that, and even came here afterwards to check my list against the one posted. There were some significant differences between mine and that one. Some of my rogue tech like Cyclone Energy stayed in my States Flygon deck for instance and I added a Cloyster d tech which came in handier than I had imagined. Did I netdeck? I didn’t take the list card for card, but I wouldn’t have played that list had I not read about it here first and I did make some changes to my list based on what was posted.

I played 3 states with my Flygon deck and overall went 9 - 9. In several of my losses it was clear to me that not knowing how to play the deck in certain matchups was what cost me the game and with a bit more experience I would probably have done a lot better. Had I copied the full net list would I have done better? NO WAY! The deck was teched to suit me and I am certain that there are at least 3 more matches that I would have lost without my changes.

Now that States are over the Flygons are in my son’s deck and I’m experimenting with various rogues again. I have 4 that I’m going to need to test before Regionals. At least one is a totally original creation and the other 3 contain a mixture of stuff I’ve been looking at on my own and bits and pieces from things here. Whatever list I settle on is going to have a lot more play experience behind it this time but the reality is that there are only so many cards in the game ... and that there is a much smaller sub-set that is actually really good either individually or in combination, so of course there will be overlap in ideas and lists. It wouldn’t shock me at all to see someone post a list nearly identical to any of mine.

As a relatively new guy, I have to say that some of the secrecy behind decklists really turns me off. It took a lot of time and effort getting up to speed on how to build good decks and play the game well in general. I would like to think that a community would encourage folks to do that ... instead I get quite the opposite impression here when I see stuff like this.

I don’t need the Destiny list. Sure I would probably take a look at it if someone posted it here, but I’m simply not going to go out and buy or trade for the cards that would be needed to build it. Instead I’m just going to assume that it’s reasonably close to the guesses posted and try to plan on what to do if I end up facing it. That would be easier with a full list, but it’s far from impossible without it.

SoTG and Netdecking ... sharing decklists is a helpful thing to new folks, no question about it to me, and thus encouraged by the SoTG. Not sharing full lists isn’t directly going against the SoTG directly but when combined with the hostility that I’ve seen here and elsewhere that I start to wonder.

And for the record, Darkwalker’s post is spot on IMHO.

 

[Tagrineth]

If you create something, it is your intellectual property and is automatically copyrighted to you. If I write a song and put it on YouTube, I hold the copyright and it is my intellectual property. It doesn't have to be official with a patent.

Just have to LOL at this.

 

[Bolt]

There's a difference between netdecking and looking at a list, testing it, and teching it for the metagame.

Why write such vague reports with no deck info? Because at this rate, Destiny and Smoothie King will still be very valid decks by the time Regionals rolls around.

You can't spell Regionals without R. Watch out for BoltronDeckSUPERdeck to take over!!

 

[ryanvergel]

There's a difference between netdecking and looking at a list, testing it, and teching it for the metagame.

Why write such vague reports with no deck info? Because at this rate, Destiny and Smoothie King will still be very valid decks by the time Regionals rolls around.

You can't spell Regionals without R. Watch out for BoltronDeckSUPERdeck to take over!!

At our rate we're going to take some trophies HOME, baby!

Most people who have posted for netdecking have never actually built an original deck or helped make an archetype. Coincidence?

 

[Tagrineth]

At our rate we're going to take some trophies HOME, baby!

Most people who have posted for netdecking have never actually built an original deck or helped make an archetype. Coincidence?

Emphasis on most.

I can claim Acid Liability and Meta-Steel as mine or at least I helped develop them. ;o

Netdecking is healthy for a card game, not everyone can be so hardcore competitive as to build and playtest their own decks. Period. Read my quote from Unifiedshoe (top of page 2).

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

Man, people need to calm down and be reasonable. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you need to and make a bunch of ridiculous statements to try and paint that thing as bad in everyone else's eyes. Opinions... learn to live with 'em!

Like, what's all this I read about stealing? Stealing a deck? The only way someone's getting their hands on your exact list is with your consent (99% of the time), at which point it ceases to be theft. Stealing time and effort? Whuh? You've got your deck from your efforts. What are you losing if someone copies it? Nothing! It's true that the person getting the deck gets a lot of time they might have otherwise used figuring out a list, but still, you're only being robbed if you lose something, not if the other guy gains it. You lose nothing, stop making yourself a victim.

And records? Afraid of your list being used elsewhere and not doing so well? And then people will automatically know that that exact list was your list? And you think it'll somehow negatively reflect on you? Nobody in their right minds would think less of you because someone else using your list didn't do well, and even if they did, whatever. Get over yourself, it's really not a big deal.

I get it that people can be annoying, but it's really not that hard to ignore them. Online. While you are provided tools specifically to help you ignore them. Plus, know what I notice? Most of the people that complain about annoying deck solicitors are also the ones that liked to put themselves into the spotlight, the center of attention. You've made your bed, now sleep in it. If you don't want it to happen again, it might be a good idea to keep quiet about your awesome secret unpredictable pwnage deck with the sweet tourney record.

 

[Lucario EX]

If you do well and someone wants to use the same deck, they are only wanting to do well also, when they don't want to come up with an entirely new deck.
Also, most times the cards already work well together, who would be more stupid, someone who looked at their cards and made a Metanite deck and did well, or someone who looked at their cards and said "Oh, Metagross and Dragonite would work well in a deck, but I heard that some people already used a deck like that" and then made a lame deck instead and did badly?

 

[ryanvergel]

Acid liability is such an obviouis combo...

What is metasteel?
It's nothing like flygon d+castaway+holon gl+grass+techs

 

[Mew]

Once upon a Time I netdecked from Pidgeotto Trainers Worlds Report, and took a CC.

 

[Tagrineth]

Acid liability is such an obviouis combo...

What is metasteel?
It's nothing like flygon d+castaway+holon gl+grass+techs

Yes but the techs and deck as a whole were not completely obvious. And the name is ALL MINE, oh yes.

Metasteel was metagross DX + registeel HL with healing trickery and some techy cleverness.

 

[bulbasnore]

I remember when people came up with a deck idea and promoted it and tried to get other people to play their creation!

Sponge, Potporri, Occult Forces, Wigglymaker, etc.

Anyone else remember that?

I think promoting a deck idea is great. Testing a deck in secret is also great.

SotG - promoting a deck and teaching others how to make that or other decks.
[DEL]SotG[/DEL] - saying you invented a deck and browbeating others who disagree.
SotG - making a secret deck with pals and playing it well, with respect to other players.
[DEL]SotG[/DEL] - bashing people you ask for help, because you disagree with their advice.
SotG - taking a list of the net, customizing it & playing it well, with respect to other players.
[DEL]SotG[/DEL] - playing a deck in public and bashing people that talk about its mechanics on the net.

 

[Cardzmaster2004]

My two cents (or one-and-a-half, since its not worth too much):

I openly post my decklists after tournaments because I think other people should see what I've found works for me and see if it will help them in their TecHing of decks. Players who copy decks card for card will do well in tourneys sometimes, but (as stated earlier) skill is a HUGE factor in winning major tournaments.

When I started this season playing what I called MSN, I was unaware that the deck-type MegaLix had been running amuk in the South and parts of the lower Midwest and East Coast. After playing with the deck for a while, someone told me a similar deck existed and I checked out some of their TecHs. Some of the cards I felt worked well for the deck. Others I felt could be used at a more open metagame, but not a narrow meta like States. I'm great at coming up with deck concepts. It's the different tweaks and TecHs that I have trouble honing in on and decding on. For me, that's what I use Featured Articles, Cardiologists, and the Deck Help forum for. They show me viable Trainer lines and TecHs that benefit decks in the current meta. I feel if players did this, then they'd have a better chance at winning big tournaments as they'll know their deck very well along with having the research help that otehrs have done.

As for the M:tG question, yes. Top 8 lists are posted for ALL major tournaments (from small City Championships to Draft Lists to PTQs, Grand Prixs, and Pro Tour events). So if you've been working on a deck and do well, its gonna get posted. That's why I take the stance that I do when working on a deck. If I've done a lot of work and feel like it can benefit others to look at it and consider putting in their decks, why shouldn't I post it? If someone Netdecks me, they're probably not going to do well since my decks are ALWAYS evolving, but it will give them a decent starting point.

My position on the subject of netdecking and posting decklists hasn't changed in the 10+ years I've been involved with TCGs and I doubt it ever will. BUt for those of you who disagree, that's fine. A lot of you think that the research you do on decks is yours and yours alone, and I'd have to agree. But if I have some piece of info in my hands that could help so many other players construct their decks, I'm not going to sit on it. I'm going ot help others by showing them my techniques, tips, and secrets.