Net decking and SotG...

[dld4a]

I’ve only been at this Pokemon TCG gig since late last November. I went to my first City Tournament in mid December with a Meganium d – Blastoise deck that, frankly, had a crummy trainer line ...

You are not netdecking in any way.


Netdecking is O.K.

Expecting someone to post a list just because you want them to is rude.

 

[Tagrineth]

Cardzmaster more or less echoes my sentiments perfectly (right down to being really bad at teching).

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

If you create something, it is your intellectual property and is automatically copyrighted to you. If I write a song and put it on YouTube, I hold the copyright and it is my intellectual property. It doesn't have to be official with a patent.

If you want to publish your deck, then that is begging to get netdecked. If you have a problem with it, don't publish your list. No one else knows your deck numbers unless you've told them, so don't tell them. If you think netdeckers should feel shame for netdecking, some can sleep with that shame (with the trophy on their shelf ).

POP seems to think it is fine to netdeck, otherwise they wouldn't print the World Champion decks.

Agree on the world champs reprint decks point.

Often, deck strategies are obvious. Take Liability, anyone looking through a carddex can see that a pokémon that leaves them with 10HP and activates a 10 damage effect go well together. You can't patent "1 orange + 1 orange = 2 oranges" in the same way you cannot patent other obvious ideas. I can sleep with the 'shame' with my trophies and medals, because I have common sense.

 

[(TYranitarFReak)]

The basic argument here is that netdecking rips the fun out of deck creators because they spend lots of valuable time and effort into making decks.
Even despite their losing fun, the netdeckers do not GAIN any fun.

losing is frustrating ! u cant really be a top dog if u go with rogue ideas (i mean rogue ideas figured out by noobs or casual players, not Jimmy, Ness, Martin....) , so.... they go for the easiest method - - - netdeck

 

[meganium45]

Actually, his Eeveelutions list was posted after the format was rotated.

Also, after finishing 2nd at Worlds, he had his trip to HI, and it was a matter of pride.

As some have seen from my posts, I agree with the idea that the decks players play should be private information.

If a player THEMSELF wants to tell you what they play, great.

If you simply go to the States forum begging to find out what the top 4 decks were, don't look to the Missouri Thread. I have enough respect for my players (from all States) to keep their lists private.

I notice a lot of other PTOs do the same thing. It is respect to the player.

If you are there, and decide to say...well I think Ness was playing LBS...well then that is your right.

If you are a deck checking judge and say, well Ness played 2 Magnemite in his LBS...you are off my staff at any future event.

I don't purse the lists, not even when I think it would be to my kids' advantage.

I had numerous Destiny Lists played in Missouri, but I have yet to pull one out to analyze it.

I spoke to Jimmy personally, and he gave me his list. I spoke with Clay about it, and got the same response. It is not only about spirit of the game, it is about integrity of the game.

Not even complete, just an idea, and the basics in the deck.

I keep my lists sealed after an event, and destroyed after one year.

If PUI wants them, they can have them.

The top players will always come up with new and innovative lists to use to their advantage.

Heck, I heard that David R. (Junior) cracked out a COOL new list in Michigan States that won it all, went undefeated, and vaulted him to the top tier of the Junior Rankings.

Even after the event, I have enough respect for the kid and the family (even though one of my players went up there, played it 3 times, and can rattle it card for card, finishing 2nd to him) that I am not going to release it. Not my place - and I wasn't even there!

PUI in my mind has a right to the deck info...they pay for the prizes. I am required to keep the deck info, but if I steal it or use it, I feel like I have violated some kind of "intellectual property" rights of the deckbuilder.

Just my opinion.

Vince

 

[BANGINBOX]

O.K.

I have seen both sides of the fence here... The reason I didnt post ear;lier is I wanted everyone to have their say that I would post my response. So here goes....

Only a small handful of produced cards are half decent - you can't expect everyone to use an original deck; the majority of the pokemon playnig population will end up using terrible cards.
You are correct here. At some point with only X amount of cards legal for modified, and thousands of people using them you are bound to find copies. However this is not the point I was making.
This is a total contradiction, IMO. Netdecks are often expensive, therefore, if one puts no time or effort in, they're putting plenty of money in, and vice versa.
There is a HUGE difference in SHOPPING for a deck and actually putting the TIME it takes to make it a formitable deck. (Trading, testing, metagaming)I believe you know this.

Losing isn't fun.
Trust me I know. But it is needed to make people better.
1) The learning curve is too great for new players
Everyone seems to forget. We were new once TOO!! But we managed to get thru it and become competetive. NOT by net decking but practice.
2) New(er) players aren't members of those same types of groups and aren't going to generate those very solid decks.
So get in contact with some high calibur players and ask for some advice. NOT THEIR LISTS!!!

Let's discuss Jimmy's Destiny for instance. Anyone who PMs Jimmy for the list, and gets denied, is 10000% in the wrong for having sour grapes about it. People aren't expected to give out their lists. When you're playing to win, the only thing you have going for you is your skill, and list. Losing the secrecy on your list is such a big disadvantage, its SICK. So yea, nobody is ever "mean" or "anti-sotg" for not giving out a list. It's the same thing as showing hole cards in Poker. You're NEVER expected to show your hole cards in Poker, and are actually considered an idiot if you do. Asking someone to show you their hole cards in Poker after the hand is one of the rudest anti-sotg things you can do. If you push it too, after they say no, everyone at the table will hate you for the rest of the session, and never show you anything ever again.
GREAT ANALAGY!!
Say Jimmy WAS to post his Destiny list though. At this point, it's 100% acceptable to netdeck the **** out of it (I know I would!). You'd be a fool not to take this free information and use it to your advantage in any possible way. After it's posted, Jimmy would be 100% in the wrong if he ever called someone a "dumb netdecker" for copying his list. HE POSTED IT! Of course it's going to get copied.
Agreed! However, I am worried about people copying my deck for 2 reasons... One, They copy a card for card list, bimb with it then proceed to bash how TERRIBLE it is, When it would be quite obvious to me they did not know how to play it properly. TWO, this would allow people to find the potential weaknesses of the deckan really put me at a huge disadvantage when I play it in a tournament.

JIMMY wins with his decks because JIMMY plays them. One of the best and under-rated players out there.
Thanx, MAN!!:thumb:
Read the 1st 2 sentences in the 1st paragraph of his post.That's why.
This is the very thing I am trying to get across to all the NEW players. It takes time to work your way to the top. If I were to use the same BAT Sammy Sosa uses would I be able to hit all the home runs he does? NO!!! However, I would probably make his bat look terrible? Same type of thing here.

You play to win the game..
Not to keep the spirit of the game..
I Disagree WHOLE HEARTEDLY!!! There needs to be a comfortable balance between the two in order to get all the enjoyment provided by this game. Some day you will see.

Jimmy, I suggest you take PRIDE in the FACT that people realize you are one of the TOP QUALITY PLAYERS right now and they want to know what you are playing! Fish, I do. Believe me. I am flattered to no end. But what a huge Disadvantage it is becoming.If you really HATED NETDECKING, why allow your EEVEELUTIONS deck to be published?? Isn't that NETDECKING at its largest capacity??
NO, for 2 reasons.... One, The deck was not publised from the NET. I worked at it for nearly a year and made it what it was then. I earned the right to have it published. It wasnt taken from the net. Two, The deck is no longer part of TODAYS format. I will gladly give anyone a list that I will no longer have to worry about when I play in a tournament.

Ultimately, it comes down to the issue of Player A bashing Player B becasue Player A cannot play with Player B's deck.
Exactly!!
Imitation is the highest form of flattery.
I heard that before. Still trying to let it sink in.
Great decks don't win tournies, Great Players do.
And WHAT makes a great player??? Taking lists off the net? NO!! PRACTICE, TIME, and EFFORT!!
You are a great player - no one can argue that.
Thanx, Man :thumb:

By far this was the most intellegent post in this thread. Your insite was right on target. But, I like to be controvertial!!!

While there were many more quotes to post, I think these summed it up nicely. If you are new ask for help, not Sammy Sosas bat!!

More to come
jimmy

 

[MrMeches]

If you are a deck checking judge and say, well Ness played 2 Magnemite in his LBS...you are off my staff at any future event.

AMEN, HALLELJUAH, PASS THAT PLATE AROUND!! :lol:

A JUDGE is supposed to impartial and not share any of the information form decklists with anyone. A TO & PTO should NEVER show these lists to other players IMHO for any reason!:thumb:

Jimmy.. popularity has it's downfall! And the PAPPARAZZI is all over you there buddy! If they want to BASH your deck (although I do agree this is a little absurd when they know of TOP TIER PLAYERS running over people with it) then they lose out, not you! Take it with a grain of salt and go on! I know you and I know you are a VERY PASSIONATE player, always have been! Dude, we miss you guys down here! I will say that you hve always been one of the most creative ROGUE-STYLE PLAYERS since you started, and that is why poeple like your lists so much, they ar e different!

I see your point about Eeveelutions and agree is was a weak example, but it is in theory very similar to netdecking. I was using that as more of an example of just how this has become a part of our game now.

TC J ad good luck at Regionals!

Fish

 

[Ardoptres]

Ardoptres: You play to win the game..
Not to keep the spirit of the game..
BANGINBOX: I Disagree WHOLE HEARTEDLY!!! There needs to be a comfortable balance between the two in order to get all the enjoyment provided by this game. Some day you will see.

Agreed, what I meant was, that netdecking doesn't break the SotG.
Cheating are...
If I have to netdeck a deck, FTW, i'll do that. (But I <3 Rogue)
I'm not breaking the SotG, just because i make a deck that wins.

 

[SuperWooper]

You could argue that netdecking is against the nature of SotG. You could argue that it isn't. The fact is, though, that there is no penalty for netdecking under Organized Play rules. So, if you're on the "netdecking should be punished" camp, what should be done?

To punish netdecking, you must first put a clear, unquestionable label on netdecking. Which is where the whole thing falls apart. Say Player A goes to a tournament with a list that is a card-for-card replica of some list from the Pokegym. What is the deckchecker/TO/whoever would be in charge of punishing netdeckers, going to do about it?

Deckchecker: This list is a carbon copy of [name]'s list on [website].
Player: No it's not. I made it myself.
Deckchecker: Prove that it is.
Player: Prove that it isn't.

Okay, at this point, what is the deckchecker supposed to do? Assume that the player is lying and just make him play with a different deck? Obviously this is a ridiculous scenario. You know why that is? Because there's just no feasible way to punish netdeckers.

Here's a hypothetical again: Player A, let's call him "SuperWooper", usually talks to a group of about seven or eight other people before each tournament, and discusses what decks will work, what decks won't, and lists for each of the decks that fit into the former catagory. From there he picks one that he likes, does a few test setups in opponent-less games, adjusts the list, maybe plays a couple games versus a friend, makes some last-minute adjustments, fills out his decklist at the tournament, and hands it in. Then makes the Top 8 and loses to Player B, let's call him "Luke Reed/Mike Pramawat/Jon Anderson/Jordan Hill/a few others."

Would you call Player A a netdecker? He didn't put much time into making the list, no real testing anyway, maybe just a couple pickup games. Most of the decision-making was theoretical. He definitely didn't put any effort into it. Player A knows that he could do better if he would just spend more time playtesting, but he really can't find it in himself. He has fun while not necessarily winning every event he goes to. He also definitely didn't spend much money on his deck. This SuperWooper guy usually has to borrow cards like a fiend to get a deck put together.

There's no real way to define netdecking. Therefore, you can't punish it, and therefore, you can't do anything about it. Let netdeckers roam free!!!

 

[Tagrineth]

Netdecking is GOOD for games, not BAD. You people are just far too steepled in your "LOL SECRET DECKS/TECHS" mentality...

 

[ryanvergel]

Netdecking is GOOD for games, not BAD. You people are just far too steepled in your "LOL SECRET DECKS/TECHS" mentality...

That's because winning in 15+ for big tournaments depends so much on having the secret deck/tech. If it wasn't such a crucial part of winning, people wouldn't be so defensive.

Half of the skill of pokemon isn't even at the table- it's deck building.

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

There is a single, very, VERY simple reason that netdecking even exists in this game.

99% of players in this game are stupid. They couldn't win an event on their own if their life depended on it.



Take MSNBC for example. Patriarch (one of the greatest minds in the game btw), played the deck at a CC and made the combo available to everyone who has some basic reading ability. But I still played it at 2 CCs, and all my opponents (minus one) were absolutelly clueless as to what I was playing.

If my opponents had bothered to do some reading beforehand, they might have actually stood a chance of beating me.

 

[SuperWooper]

Most people who have posted for netdecking have never actually built an original deck or helped make an archetype.

How TERRIBLE!!! =/

 

[supertyranitar]

Netdecking is GOOD for games, not BAD. You people are just far too steepled in your "LOL SECRET DECKS/TECHS" mentality...

I really have to agree with this. Honestly, I don't see the whole big deal about Net decking. We wouldn't have a Metagame and Archetypes otherwise, now would we? If everyone felt the need to play rogue or something, then everything would be unpredictable, and that only goes so far.

Point is, Netdecking IS NOT a bad thing IMO. That's all I'll say for now.

 

[Lawman]

This is one judge who cant take the time to study decklists long enough to know if Jimmy ran 3 Latios EXs or 2 Skarmorys, etc. I have enough to do than memorize decklists. I have to check sleeves, cards vs list, count it for 60. After greeting the player, checking their list, handing it back and wishing them luck for the tourney and reminding them to shuffle well, then move to the next player, when do I have time to memorize the deck?? Heck, after a few decks, I may have already forgotten that Timmy was playing Metanite!

I also agree with Vince, any judge posting/sharing any info about a player's deck, w/o that player's consent, should not be a judge!

More OT, netdecking has a place in the game. Do I like it when a player walks in w/ an obv netdecked list? Not really, bc they generally have no clue as to HOW to PLAY the deck, they just have 60 cards that go together. They normally dont win much. Having lists posted online can help players understand other decks better and to playtest ag'st them. Posting your list can help get fixes/ideas that you either missed or dismissed w/o testing bc you didnt see the right angle.

When I play, it is normally a rogue/original idea I have put together. You know, certain combos are that obvious...ie Weezing/Victreebell or Tyhp (UF). (Liability decks)

All the props in the World to the top deck builders. Jimmy does a great job. Should he post his list(s)?? Only if he wants to....but no one should "out" his list. Concepts are one thing to "leak out", the entire list is another. The basis behinf Destiny (as I see it) is a bunch of BBP (big basic Pokes). Use the type that gives you the better match up that game, whether it is Ray EX or Mew EX or stanler, etc. That "idea" has been around this game since Haymaker was built. It is nothing new, just recycled!

JMHO Keith

 

[Scizor]

This isn't Magic: The Gathering. There is a lot more skill involved in that game during the in-game stage. There are decks made available because it takes someone who knows what they're doing to win with them. There's another difference and that is that there are just a lot more players and a lot more decent-good players in M:TG than there is Pokemon.

There are few great players in this game. But there is also a great deal of luck in a game, definitely a lot more than Magic. Deckbuilding is where great players can separate themselves. When you don't know what your opponent is playing, you can be at a disadvantage. There are a lot of decent-good players in Magic who see a GOOD play, but not the BEST one. There aren't as many options in Pokemon, but somehow, a lot of players blow it. But with the flip of a coin, a topdeck here, bad hand there (no mulligans this game, I've always hated that), subpar-decent players win. It happens a lot more in Pokemon than it ever did or does in Magic. Deckbuilding is all we have.

 

[Rambo1000]

i hope jimmy doesn't post the list.

but i must say, with all the information about the cards that are in destiny from various reports, etc., any good, respectable player could figure out a winning build. if you can't, you shouldn't play it, it's that simple. im glad i'm not jimmy right now though, my PM box is full enough with people asking for the list i won with in LA, i cant even imagine his. well whatever, netdecking isn't worth it anyway. 90% of the decks in the deck help forum are bad anyways. make your own stuff, perfect it by yourself or with a friend, test it, play it, win. those are the ingredients to winning with a rogue deck.

 

[Bolt]

This is the definition of a broken format.

 

[Mewchou]

99% of players in this game are stupid. They couldn't win an event on their own if their life depended on it.

Talk about SotG :nonono:

Aren't you glad you are part of the 1% of players who aren't drooling morons?

 

[evil psyduck]

Talk about SotG :nonono:

Aren't you glad you are part of the 1% of players who aren't drooling morons?

Dang Mewchou remind me to take some napkins to the next tournament. :lol: You know how much i drool at them.:biggrin: