Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Disclosing Deck Lists?

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eriknance

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In an interesting conversation I had with a friend over the weekend at the Diamond & Pearl PreRelease, the question was raised as to why people generally keep decklists under wraps. Now don't get me wrong, I've had my own unfortunate run-in with the problem of giving out decklists (losing to William Hung's Flariados that I helped him build at Nationals was, well, ironic at the least). However, the people who get decklists off the internet still have to maintain the skill it requires to win against an opponent.

Without going into the whole "teams/secret decks" issue, why shouldn't we as players of a trading card game community offer our ideas? Is there truly something to fear, or are we just fooling ourselves?
 
Imo, if a truly great deck is kept secret up to the day it's used, it has the advantage of surprise on the other decks in the metagame, which is one of the reasons I think they're kept secret. I mean, look at Medicham, Nidoqueen, and Raieggs: both were pretty much unknown except by their respective teams that developed them, and when they were played they got the jump on everyone and won. And then people began copying them...
 
Well, part of the reason why the whole "SD" concept exists in Pokemon is because it can actually be done. If as many people played Pokemon as they did Magic, well...good luck with that.

The surprise factor is HUGE in Pokemon, and is often the #1 reason why a US National/World champion pulls ahead of the pack.
 
Before using the deck, keeping it secret is a great asset.

After it has been played and used and is known, well then keeping the list secret is kind of pointless. People will be able to make a general list, and after playtesting will be able to tweak it. It might not be the list used, but it should be close enough to be as good/better/a little worse.
 
It's a tricky subject. Surprise factor is definitely a huge one. Even if what you're playing isn't totally secret, there's still those times that you can drop a surprise tech and pull out a win. But there's also times when I've helped others in my area, and others have helped me. Frankie Durso even won a regionals with a tech I showed him, and Magnechu's helped me with decks a bunch of times.

I agree that secrets are going to be kept as long as they can be, but I've seen a fair amount of idea sharing and helping and such among friends.
 
Any skilled players should learn what every card in modified does. Just look through a set when it's released and think "Will this be a threat to my deck?" and you won't be surprised.
 
I think Chuck made the best analogy. In poker, you never show your hole cards. They're what you're going to be playing with, so you don't show it off until you have to or are done with the round. The reason for this is because it is a HUGE advantage to know exactly what your opponents are playing.

The same goes for pokemon. If you have a really good set of hole cards (pocket Aces) that have a significant advantage vs the field, you shouldn't yap about your aces because then people will adjust their play accordingly.

Sharing SDs opens the door for more luck, which is not what good players want. The less luck in the game, the better.

Furthermore, showing an SD to the community doesn't actually help them improve their skills. The basis for the SD is an assessment and response to the metagame. You have to understand the metagame to use it correctly and understand it. If you don't understand the metagame (aka you're a subpar player, the ones who need improvement) you won't get anything out of the deck.

So, if it doesn't help bad players, and it hurts good players... the real question is why would you EVER want to share secret decks?
 
No, I'd agree with Ryan.
While it's a secret, keep it for the surprise factor.
But once you've shown your aces, don't keep taking about "my secret hole cards".
That's just annoying. If they've been out there, then talk about them. Or don't. But don't talk "around them".
Tech cards are different. If you have teched or tweaked a deck, hold onto that info, but don't hide the cards that are "known". What's the point? If you're playing a Flariados variant with 2 special tech cards in it, don't "hide" the fact that you played Flariados in your tourney report. There's a difference between keeping a secret and being obtuse.

Finally, if you don't want to reveal a secret deck in the deck forum, fine. But still help other players with general concepts of good deck building. It shows class.
As opposed to mocking people as some have started doing.
Mocking will get a person time off.

The "you"s above were general "you"s and not referring to any specific person.
 
No deck should be a secret deck. Everyone SHOULD know what cards are out and what are their capabilities. This way, as Magic Umbreon said, you won't be surprised.
 
No deck should be a secret deck. Everyone SHOULD know what cards are out and what are their capabilities. This way, as Magic Umbreon said, you won't be surprised.

So although a deck may be secret, its content and potential is not.

Take Regis' example of Medicham, Nidoqueen and Raieggs. If these decks were capable of pwnage, then surely a skilled player would see that as they scanned new sets release. Raieggs is nothing special. I saw the combination of the cards at prerelease as a threat so I prepared. The secrecy involved is the fact that if a deck's popularity is secret then techs are less likely.
 
There is a world of difference between being given a 60 card deck where the synergy speaks to you, and having to develop that 60 card deck in the first place. If my opponent shows me their 60 card deck before a game then I'll have a good chance of seeing the weak points. Even with established standards the techs can keep you guessing as to the correct strategy. If the deck is secret then the surprise factor is huge. You can be several prizes down before you figure it out by which times its GG.

Summary: The gulf between analysis and synthesis is huge.
 
This is a multi-layer issue.

  • On the top layer, we have surprise decks. Decks like Medicham, T2 Muk, etc that were undisclosed to the community because of their effectiveness over the format and so they could surprise people and take advantage of the shock/people not knowing how to play against it.
  • After we get past that layer, we move onto the "already discovered, but tweaked deck" middle layer. This is where someone releases a new big deck and although the deck idea is out in the public, the players tweak their deck and add in a few techs aren't known about from the overall public.
  • Then we get to the bottom layer. This is just the pure idea of the deck. A basic list is sometimes given out. Look at the Archetype discussion for an example of this. Those lists are just basic lists. These are used just to get the idea across.
Currently in the game, we have a lot of players that feel their ideas are in the top layer. They feel their deck has the ability to take Nationals and go undefeated with some surprise added in to help that along. What they don't realize is that only a very small percent of decks actually pull of the whole surprise thing and do well. Last years at Worlds, we saw some of the big players in this game play a deck that was made up of Banette ex and Medicham ex. It was supposedly the next big deck, and it flopped. Because so many players have their minds in the top layer, many lists are kept secret and the game really loses out. People are scared to share ANY ideas with people because that idea might go on to win Worlds/Nats.

I can understand people with lists in the medium layer keeping them a secret. Those lists were worked on by them and tweaked by them.

But people with lists in the bottom layer that keep them a secret (a good majority of the lists IMHO) should not feel a need to keep them secret from the community. Alas they do because of a simple tactic people in this game have grown to know.

Abuse every advantage you have over the opponent to the maximum of your capability.

RyanVergel brings up an example of it. Players in this game are so concerned about winning that they won't tell anyone about any ideas they have. From there, they usually get in groups thinking they can tell their idea to the group members and the ideas will stay within the group only. But that leads to inner-egos and groups breaking into other mini-groups and can even lead to groups breaking up because of a single idea being communicated to someone outside of the group.

Why do people keep their ideas secret so much? The majority of the players feel they can get some kind of advantage over some small idea they have but in reality, they won't and don't. But they continue to do it because all the pro players do it.

I've tested out many other card games and you'd be surprised how many other games post their best strategies right to the community. Like Erik said, they understand that some unskilled player will not be able to play their idea as good as they can. And I think they know down low that if they can only win a game because they have a deck that nobody knows about, then maybe they don't deserve to win tournaments at all.

Erik, you've gone ahead and shared many ideas of yours to the community, and I applaud you. Not only are you World-Championship material, but you aren't scared of people using your own ideas against you. You are the type of player that is needed for this game to grow. I wish many players were like you.
 
Why do people keep their ideas secret so much?

Ego. In other words, "Ha ha, I have super-secret tech that will dominate the metagame, and I shall lord this vague tech over all others without disclosing any of it because it gives me a sense of superiority!"
 
Um, the majority of players don't have an SD. The majority of players have a rags deck they think is good. A real SD, in the context that most people talk about it, is a GOOD deck. Those SDs are kept secret because keeping it secret DOES yield an advantage (a huge one). Denying that is wrong, because we've seen what happens when a deck is revealed (bancham) and when it isn't (queendom, mewtric, muk). Keeping a deck secret before a tournament can get you the win. Leaking it can hinder that.

Leaking an SD does not improve player skill. If it does not improve anyone's skill- why do it? All it does is hurt a good player's chances. There is NO REASON at all to reveal an SD.
 
Um, the majority of players don't have an SD. The majority of players have a rags deck they think is good.

Exactly. Most decks are not SD's. But most players feel they are, and thus don't disclose them. Remember that the pro players only make up like <10% of the players in this game.

Leaking an SD does not improve player skill. If it does not improve anyone's skill- why do it? All it does is hurt a good player's chances. There is NO REASON at all to reveal an SD.

The problem with this is that players treat every idea they have as a SD and thus disclose no ideas to the public. What is the problem with disclosing ideas that you know aren't SD's?
 
Exactly. Most decks are not SD's. But most players feel they are, and thus don't disclose them. Remember that the pro players only make up like <10% of the players in this game.



The problem with this is that players treat every idea they have as a SD and thus disclose no ideas to the public. What is the problem with disclosing ideas that you know aren't SD's?

What's the problem with not? Who cares if someone doesn't see a new idea for beedrill swarm? Will it inhibit their creativity? No. Will it inhibit their skill? No. So who cares?

Also, 'pop, a lot of times in poker you won't ever have to reveal your hand, even if you win the pot. If you don't have to reveal your hand, sometimes doing so will hurt you (if you were bluffing, for example). The same is true for pokemon. If you used an SD at a cities and won, leaking it out is a bad idea because there are plenty of other cities, but so few people saw your deck that it shouldn't get leaked that way either.
 
What's the problem with one person not disclosing a fun idea? Not much. But what happens is that one person starts out not disclosing their ideas (even the fun ones) and it leads to a lot of people not disclosing the ideas. And that leads to a community where anyone starting out new has very little ideas to choose from that have any potential. Forums and communities grow stale because everyone is not giving back to it.

Who cares? Not you of course. I'm sure a lot of pro players don't care. As long as they have their group to post their ideas with, they are fine. But for the majority of players in this game, THEY LOSE OUT.

But who cares...

Stop trying to relate Poker to this game. It doesn't help. In poker, you have a lot less ways to have an advantage over your opponent since you don't build decks and a lot of the players are equally skilled. So little advantages like bluffing and not showing your hand when you win a pot DO mean a lot.

Please don't bring a Poker-kind of attitude to this game. You'll ruin it for everyone.
 
Also, 'pop, a lot of times in poker you won't ever have to reveal your hand, even if you win the pot. If you don't have to reveal your hand, sometimes doing so will hurt you (if you were bluffing, for example). The same is true for pokemon. If you used an SD at a cities and won, leaking it out is a bad idea because there are plenty of other cities, but so few people saw your deck that it shouldn't get leaked that way either.

I'm not talking about situations where the "hole cards" weren't revealed.
If it's still secret, it makes sense to keep keeping the secret.

I am talking about those that are so paranoid that they post deck reports like:
"I played my SD.
Round one: I won.
Round two: It was a sqeaker, but my tech pulled it out"

in this case, it's just stupid to not even mention the main hitter because everyone at that tournament saw it.
 
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