Disclosing Deck Lists?

[Flaming_Spinach]

The surprise factor is HUGE in Pokemon

Patriarch answered every question on post 3.

The format in Pokemon right now is such that the biggest advantage you can have is SURPRISE.



I had a SD for Regionals. In playing against people who knew what I was playing, it had about a 60-40 advantage over everything. I eventually decided to play it because NO ONE was prepared for it, which brought my matchups even higher (70-30 or 80-20 against players who had no idea how to play against it).

It got me third place. With a few better starts, I easily could have won.

Without the surprise factor, I never would have played that deck. That's what it comes down to.



More later.

 

[eriknance]

One of the things I find interesting here is the fact that even though I asked for a discussion without the mention of teams and secret decks, that is what this whole thread has turned into. This isn't necessarily a bad thing though, and it kind of leads into a pattern I've noticed as of late.

So far this year, I have seen more people talk about secret decks than ever before. I feel that everything kind of hit a climax with the whole Destiny ordeal, as people seemed ready to fight over what the actual list was. And correct me if I'm wrong, but how long has the acronym "SD" been in use? If it's been around for longer than a couple of years, I know for a fact that it hasn't been used near as much as this year.

As PokePop acknowledged, people have become extremely inclusive when it comes to their decks. It's no longer unusual to see someone trying to keep a list (or combo, or tech, or whatever) from a public that has already seen it. The "SD" mentality has somehow crept over all of our concerns, keeping the sharing of ideas within this community stifled. Even if someone's secret deck isn't really that great within the overall metagame, many people will try to deny its existence simply to keep it secret. Though this is evident in some of the tournament reports, perhaps the greater evidence rests in what has not been said. I'm sure that other people have gotten excited at the thought of posting a neat deck idea they had, but then abandoned the contribution to keep the deck under wraps... just in case it was the next "SD." Over time, the list never finds its way to the public, and a good idea turns to nothing. I know that I can't necessarily prove this, but I can go ahead and admit that I did this same thing. I kept my MetaNite list a secret for a long time, simply because I wanted it to remain a secret. Over time, however, I've realized that it's not that big of a deal, and it would have helped a lot of people out in their deck-building skills had they known my list.

One person I have come to respect is Jacob Burt, as he has given the community his tournament-winning decklists time and time again. Without Polistall being shown to Pokegym, many people would have never even known how to start building the deck. Without the list being posted, I would have never had to modify my decks to beat the Polistall matchup. My answer being Pokemon Reversal and Pow! Hand Extension, I won countless games at Worlds 2006 because of my understanding of how to beat Polistall. In a way, Jacob's contribution pushed me to be a better player and to make better choices. He certainly has no secrets to keep, and because of that I'm a more well-rounded player.

I'd like to go on with this post, but fishsticks are calling my name. :biggrin:

Thanks for everyone's posts by the way!

 

[ryanvergel]

Erik: point out where people talked about teams? I don't think teams were mentioned whatsoever. Also, a secret deck is what you're talking about, but you just wanted to skate around the topic.

Otherwise you're asking for an extremely simple response: why don't people share ideas? Because they think it gives them an advantage. Does withholding information give one an advantage? Yes. So their belief is logical and rational.

Discussion closed.

Now, if you don't want to get into the issue of secret decks then this topic won't flourish whatsoever.

There is a difference between giving out lists before and after a tournament. If someone posts a report, there isn't any reason for giving a decklist. The contents of the deck are discussed, and that is enough to get "the idea" of a deck, which is what you all are chastising players for not displaying.

I just don't understand this desire for people to broadcast secret decks. It doesn't help new players. It doesn't help pros. WHY DO IT!? There are archetypes in the archetype section for a REASON. Those are for new players. There is absolutely NO reason to reveal an SD. It is irrational. And chastising or making people feel bad for not doing it is even more bizarre- you're asking someone to do something obviously irrational.

If someone has an idea, doesn't share it because it might be an SD, and it never surfaces it was because it wasn't a good idea. Who cares that bad ideas aren't shared? They're BAD IDEAS. I can list off a billion bad ideas. It doesn't get anyone anywhere.

I also see a trend from arguers. Most people who argue for posting SDs themselves have never actually come CLOSE to making or helping with an SD. Prime, in the past YEAR you've posted ONE deck in the strategy forum. So much for sharing ideas, huh! You're the pot calling the kettle black. Where is your idea sharing?

You guys must just not understand what it is like to put in the effort and risk of making and playing an SD. You guys must also not understand the advantage surprise can give you. Until you guys show me some logic in sharing SDs you're all simply spouting off useless suggestions that only hurt the public.

 

[Bolt]

I'm sure if you ask around the forum for help with a deck from an upper level player, you'll get it.

But lists are a different story. Destiny help was given out on the forums this year, but not a list...if you can even keep secret the amount of a Pokemon played, you have an edge over the opponent.

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

Ryan is a genius.

 

[Prime]

I disagree that withholding information gives one an advantage.

It only gives the person an advantage ONCE, and only if their deck is good enough to do well and only if that player is good enough to work it correctly.

So why do it? It's like running a deck filled with flipping cards. On good days, you might go 75-25 with flips and win a lot of a games. But on some days you might go 25-75 and lose every game. Why withhold so much information for an advantage that isn't even guaranteed?!

How many players withhold information? How many of those players use that information to win tournaments? I'd say a VERY small amount of them. You see the players that know how to play this game very well doing well.

I've always felt it's the player not the deck, and any advantage someone gets with a deck is artificial and limited in potent.

It does go back to taking every advantage you can get. But personally, I wouldn't sacrifice the game's future for my (1) win. Seriously.

Without the list being posted, I would have never had to modify my decks to beat the Polistall matchup. My answer being Pokemon Reversal and Pow! Hand Extension, I won countless games at Worlds 2006 because of my understanding of how to beat Polistall. In a way, Jacob's contribution pushed me to be a better player and to make better choices. He certainly has no secrets to keep, and because of that I'm a more well-rounded player.

:clap::thumb:

 

[ryanvergel]

lol

It doesn't stunt the game's future. Never has, never will. The game's ten years strong, and is based on the same behavior of witholding information. I've played a lot of games based on withholding information. This will not stunt the game at all. You're really misled if you believe it will.

 

[Prime]

I? Must not be I if Erik sees this as problem too. Take me as a grain of salt. I've done almost nothing in this game. But look at Erik. In his first year of playing, he won cities, states, got top 3 at regionals, and went to worlds. He kicked a lot of (insert word here) and is a top notch person and player. He rarely posts on this forum, so he must have felt it important to make a thread about this.

Where is the absolution list for the Archetype discussion? Where is the Destiny list for the Archetype discussion?

If pro players really wanted to give back to the game, they would. When was the last time the person who made a big deck actually make an article about it? Martin, maybe? Way to go.

It's funny. The pro players have the MOST to give back to the game yet most don't. LOL

*sorry if this is too anti-pro players*

 

[mikermon]

just to my 2 cents,

i feel withholding your decklist provides some advantage, even if only once. normally i wouldn't do it. but i gotta admit, even though i'm not super competetive, i don't like the idea of people knowing what one is playing before nats, much less the whole decklist. i don't really feel there's much of a suprise factor. i think it's more of. catching your opponent off guard. putting them in bad situation. forcing them to make bad choices/ waste energy drops etc. but i definitely will post a nats report/my whole decklist after the tournament is over. i just really don't think it's a good idea to "give it all away" before the party is even started.


heck i feel uncomfortable just seeing decklists on pokegym that are similar to some of the odd decks i play.

 

[Prime]

I don't think anyone would want to give away their Nationals decklist before the event.

But this is a different thing. People aren't posting ideas at all. I mean, some people are posting ideas. A lot of people are posting ideas, but the people that could really give back to the community and give back lots of neat ideas, don't. Not because they are going to use it at a tournament coming up, but because they just don't want to.

When I used to come up with lots of ideas, I would post the fun ideas I had on here. Did I end up using some of them at tournaments? Sure, but I didn't let that hinder me one bit because most of the ones I did post I never ended up using. But it's funny; one of my ideas that I never intended to use could have easily sparked an idea in someone else's mind and they could have ended up doing well with it. If I had never posted it, that person might never have thought of a better idea or tweaked my idea so it was more playable.

Communities grow stronger when everyone pitches in. This applies to everything, groups, armies, and even games. But when a group of the most skilled decide to not give back anymore, the community loses out.

 

[Rainbowgym]

The surprise factor is HUGE in Pokemon, and is often the #1 reason why a US National/World champion pulls ahead of the pack.

I agree on that, look at what deck won the German Nationals in Masters.
And this weekend somebody took 50 points of my rating because of a surprise deck. (I Lost in swiss and later in tops to it).

Never underestimate the surprise factor, it doesn't even need a great player.
The "not knowing how to deal with it factor" gives a surprise player a BIG advantage.

 

[Prime]

Never underestimate the surprise factor, it doesn't even need a great player.

Emphasis mine. Does this even need explanation? How good is a player if they have to surprise their opponents to win?

 

[Rainbowgym]

Emphasis mine. Does this even need explanation? How good is a player if they have to surprise their opponents to win?

No you are not understanding what I am saying.

The best player can be totally surprised by a certain deck.
A "not so good" player can end up very high with a surprise reasonable build deck.
So imagine what a surprise deck can do in the hand of a more skilled player.


And there is a reason to keep it secret.
But if you want to improve such deck, you most times need just more imput, from friends or who ever.
The Deck section can help you with that, but most times people try to fix decks into "standard ways".
Or you get response like: Well that's a stupid deck and is not going to win.

 

[DaBest345]

What's the problem with one person not disclosing a fun idea? Not much. But what happens is that one person starts out not disclosing their ideas (even the fun ones) and it leads to a lot of people not disclosing the ideas. And that leads to a community where anyone starting out new has very little ideas to choose from that have any potential. Forums and communities grow stale because everyone is not giving back to it.

Who cares? Not you of course. I'm sure a lot of pro players don't care. As long as they have their group to post their ideas with, they are fine. But for the majority of players in this game, THEY LOSE OUT.

But who cares...

Stop trying to relate Poker to this game. It doesn't help. In poker, you have a lot less ways to have an advantage over your opponent since you don't build decks and a lot of the players are equally skilled. So little advantages like bluffing and not showing your hand when you win a pot DO mean a lot.

Please don't bring a Poker-kind of attitude to this game. You'll ruin it for everyone.

QFT (quoted for truth...bit off bullados)

 

[mikermon]

if the players start sharing ideas yes, i will agree the community will get stronger. but last i checked. Pop is only awarding invites to worlds to "individuals" not healthy idea sharing communities.


i can totally understand the lack of fresh ideas on the gym lately. if you want to blame anyone, point your finger at the people in seattle. at the OP department.

i feel they have made the game a little too competetive this year. but then again, if they make it less competetive next year, people will still whine.

 

[Mew]

Emphasis mine. Does this even need explanation? How good is a player if they have to surprise their opponents to win?

Here's a good example:

If Jimmey played Ness right now, (with Jimmey playing some crazy red face paint thing that Ness has never seen and Ness playing Bandoom) and neither deck has a clear advantage over the other.
I'd so both of them are equal in skill lv. so most likely Jimmey would win, simply because Ness would not nessessarily (mispelled on purpose) know how to play through Jimmey's deck.

The areas of the US that have the most concentrated areas of great players (Florida and Carolinas/Chicagoian region/ LA, Sandiego/ NY, ect) is where it's most important to keep your deck secret, because the players you are saying could contribute know that their competition is just as good as them and they can't spare a disadvantage.
Sorry if that's a little confusingly worded.

 

[moza]

Just a correction mew, it is great lakes area You forget fulop/moss/others.

Also, I agree with ryan's first post. A lot.

Like, I am so cereal.

 

[vietgamer1021]

i run an SD with my main deck

but im expriementing with it

besides its going to be fun revealing it at the next toruney, and seeing if its a success or not, thats also having fun in the game

however concealing info about ones deck gives them a slight advantage, especially if its an obscure deck with obscure techs but also the ability of ones opponent comprehending the strategy of you deck is a big factor in a match

and the rest is all up to luck, coin flips, and misplays

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

I disagree that withholding information gives one an advantage.

It only gives the person an advantage ONCE, and only if their deck is good enough to do well and only if that player is good enough to work it correctly.

And that once applies to Worlds 04, Worlds 05, Nationals 06 and several other high placing finishers of local and national(global) tournaments. Having an advantage for one tournament (especially a big one) is a lot better than none. When it comes down to it, for many good players you look back at your tournament year for your: State's performance, Regionals performance, Nationals performance (and if you're lucky this year a world's performance). So 3, maybe 4 big tournaments a year. If there were 100 big tournaments a year, maybe having an advantage only once wouldn't seem so good.

How many players withhold information? How many of those players use that information to win tournaments? I'd say a VERY small amount of them.

You are just showing how difficult the game and its competition is right now. That makes every advantage you can get that much more important. (And I make it sound like a secret deck is a small advantage, but it is a huge one).

I've always felt it's the player not the deck, and any advantage someone gets with a deck is artificial and limited in potent.

Touching, but that is not the reality of this game. Your most important decisions for any tournament have been made once you turn in your decklist. This is a game where how you've built your deck and how it fits the metagame is just more important than in-game play. There are just too many players good enough to win a winning matchup once it comes down to in-game play. Whether that is the morally best way to look at it or not, the game has just developed to be that way.
Simply, You Play to Win the Game. Keeping a SD cannot be argued that it doesn't help you in that goal.

 

[Prime]

Take your advantage. Don't disclose the deck your playing before the tournament. But that is not what is happening. We see a full concealment of deck ideas from a lot of the players in this game.

There are some good points in this thread, and to make it more fair in my discussions, I will present them.

So imagine what a surprise deck can do in the hand of a more skilled player.

I understand that a player has a lot to get if they keep a good deck a secret and are able to surprise the audience at a big tournament. But I don't feel this occurs as often as we like. I'm sure a lot of players feel like they have a SD of sorts, but in reality, it's just a deck they like a lot and a lot of the time it doesn't even stand up to the big decks in today's metagame.

Pop is only awarding invites to worlds to "individuals" not healthy idea sharing communities.

Your right. There is no awards for those that give back to the community. And your right, this season, with the new award plans, people have had to be more secretive about there decks. This season, you've had to take advantage of the every little thing. That's the game's fault. But I don't think that should stop people from giving back to the game.

There has never been awards for giving back to the community. I don't know of a single game that gives awards to people for giving back to the community. The best we have right now is the professor program and that only awards those who step away from playing and help judge tournaments.

But just like in the past, there has always been people that support the game without looking for recognition or prizes. If a game doesn't have them, the game dies. Period. Pokegym was made by a group of people that wasn't getting paid. The people who used to post articles at Pojo did that to give back to the community. The people who write articles for the Pokegym give back the community without being paid/awarded for it. So why expect the pro players not to do the same? Sure, they have more potent ideas to communicate, but at the same time, they are the ones that could help out the game more than anyone. A fine example is the example Erik posted of Jake B. posting his list/strategy and it showing Erik a GOOD list to test against and get better as a player.

But as much as it might seem like it's POP's fault, don't blame them for everything. A player at anytime can take it upon themselves to give back to the community. Look at ErikNance's recent posts. He's been posting all the ideas he's been coming up with. Does this hurt his chances at tournaments? Maybe slightly, but he is willing to give up that small advantage to benefit the whole.

I wish more could realize that the game is more important than a single tournament win of yours.

Simply, You Play to Win the Game. Keeping a SD cannot be argued that it doesn't help you in that goal.

This game isn't about winning. It's about having fun. Winning is a part of the game, but it isn't the entire game. Stop treating it as such. If you don't give back to the game, the game might not be there the next time you blink.

I remember when I used to play the game, and any given day, any good player would win. And if you didn't, you gave it another try the next time it came around. The problem with today's environment is that this just isn't enough. People don't want to be beat by another good player and give it another try next time. They want to take advantage of every little thing they can and win right then. Thus people lose picture of the entire meaning of the game, to have fun, and it ruins it for everyone.

Am I being misled like Ryan said? Why don't you make up your own mind.