In Order to Form a More Perfect Union: part 2

[hitmonchan93]

I think more worlds INVITES would be really sweet for players.

I am not talking about trips though. Since worlds is an invite only event, what if you were to expand the invites to like the top 100 or so in each age group gets an INVITE while the top 10 gets a paid trip as well.
I dunno, maybe.

Yes!

 

[M_Liesik]

Stay on target!

Please forgive the Star Wars reference, but this topic is not about the number of invites. Find somewhere else to discuss that.

 

[meganium45]

PUI does reward its elite helpers, and has always done so, when they see the opp.

I have been blessed in my area with 3 older players who went "Judge" rather than 1337 player, even though they were all great players in their own right.

Mega Murkrow
Psyduck
BigpoppaBeatdown

They gave up playing to judge my events, my gyms, my Regionals, meeting some of the PUI brass, who saw their style and their dedication to the GAME, and making it what I, and they, envisioned it should be.

They were noticed, and I think they were all given trips to Nats and Worlds at different times, not because they asked, or demanded, but simply because they WORKED at it for the GOOD of the GAME.

Ask Psyduck, Chad Young, how he feels about PUI's recognition of his contributions....

PUI gives rewards like this as a bonus, not as a sense of entitlement.

I thank the starts EVERY DAY for PUI and allowing me to bond with my kids in such a unique way, and for having faith in me to put on the best events I know how to.

The extras, the trips, the little bonuses from time to time, are an extra not expected, or demanded, but appreciated.

I do NOT like the idea of making the trips for judges and the like "criteria driven" because you will always have those that do the bare minimum to meet the criteria, and those who do so much for the game in 3/4 of the areas, but not one area, and get left out.

Have faith in the systems. There is always room for improvement, but this system I find to be pretty good.

F_S - please do not consider this a criticism...I think there should be a "Ness Award" for those who make the game better for those around them, and still manage to be pretty darn good players. Anyone who dealt with Jason at either of my regionals knows EXACTLY what I am talking about. The kids in my gym are STILL talking about what a great guy he is. +1.

Vince

 

[The Gorn]

Lots of great stuff in here. Let me take a crack at a few...

The players have very little say in the operations and development of OP. POP does run forums for the PTOs and professors of this game, but those who are primarily players have little or no contact with POP whatsoever.

I agree with your observation, but don't agree that it's a problem. And I think OP HAS listened to us in the past.

There are very few benefits for joining this game in comparison to other games. Think about this. If someone decides to quit Yugioh, and start another TCG, the only real TCGs they have to choose from are Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering. Why would anyone choose Pokemon over Magic as far as OP is concerned?

Agree 100%. I am torn in two directions on this. On one hand, I think I would support something like a Pokemon Pro Circuit. I'm not sure what such a thing would mean to Pokemon's appeal to younger kids.

The professor program is almost meaningless. Being a professor does not guarantee that you know how to make rulings or judge an event (especially since it is possible to cheat on the test). And, not being a professor is not evidence that you do not know certain rulings. So, what exactly does a professorship mean?

Again, I agree 100%. I let my professorship lapse because (a) I wasn't interested in judging tournaments and (b) I saw little benefit in being a professor. I already contribute mightily to this game in my own way and ask nothing in return. So it's not about "what's in it for me." I just don't see the point. I believe the professor program is unsalvageable. (As is my spelling, I believe.)

Fair play and helpful attitudes seem to be at an all-time low. Anything that would encourage top-level players to help new players would certainly be beneficial in hooking those new players for a long time.

I'm not sure where I stand on this. I think it was worse 2 years ago, but it's interesting watching how the Battle Roads are going. It's a freakin' drop-fest! I don't think that's what OP had in mind when they set up the Battle Roads.

As for your suggestions, I say "Let's do this thing!" I would like to see them get implemented and see how they worked.

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

I said I'd respond to everything, but, actually, there are just a few things that need responses.

We don't have a mentor program like you're talking about, nor are we likely ever going to have one. I don't want to bribe the best players in the world to teach others to be the best too; they should have the strength of character to do that on their own without anyone giving them swag for doing so.

Unfortunatelly, many of them don't. The top players in this game have formed their own cliques, whom they'd rather discuss decks with than go to league.

There are of course, a few exceptions. But for every 1337 player who helps little kids, I can show you 2 who do not.

"What do I get for helping others be better players?"

How about the respect of the community?

Many players get the respect they're looking for from Lafonte (or some other group of friends), so that the general publics opinion of them is meaningless.

I guess the question for these players is: WHICH community do you want respect from?

I really respect what you're trying to accomplish here F_S, so please don't take it as me bashing you. I just don't agree with parts of what you're saying is all.

No offense taken in any way.







Probably have more later.

 

[Arcanine 274]

i like all the ideas except the one about 1800+. i know ALL the rulings [go ahead, test me] but due to the nature of the GAME, with all the luck involved, havent hit that while i have played more this year than ever before.

What he said. That's the biggest problem.

EDIT:

Except for knowing all the rulings, lol.

 

[ShawofMordor]

Hey how come Mike didn't reply to MY perfect union ideas?!

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

It seems like some of the problems you've pointed out are due to the increasingly competitive nature of the game, though no one's pinpointed it as such.

Unfortunatelly, many of them don't. The top players in this game have formed their own cliques, whom they'd rather discuss decks with than go to league.

Fair play and helpful attitudes seem to be at an all-time low. Anything that would encourage top-level players to help new players would certainly be beneficial in hooking those new players for a long time.

Oh, and also, I'm not sure how a bunch of programs for uber-masters are going to do anything to attract new players...

 

[moza]

Why IS there an age limit with the Professor ship? Do they do "stuff" after the tourney ;P?

 

[dld4a]

1. POP does a very good job at listening to its' players!

2. Because it's a better game!

3. OMG. I'm sitting here looking at my Lab Coat, Jacket, Back pack, Deck boxes, Professor Promo Cards, T-shirts, Polo Shirt, ..., and 200+ points (that I'm sitting on waiting to decide what to spend them on) and I'm thinking "What!? The professor program is almost meaningless?" Being a Professor does garner respect from many of my league kids (you know like the ones your advocating the help for).

4. Must be a regional thing. It's pretty good around here!

 

[Mew]

Why IS there an age limit with the Professor ship? Do they do "stuff" after the tourney ;P?

I agree! I would be 100% more willing to help at league if I had that Prof. Logo by my Gym Name.
I'm acctually serious! I turned 15 right after they changed the age limit... ;(
FS: I agree 100% with everyting you said in the problems except this:

Fair play and helpful attitudes seem to be at an all-time low. Anything that would encourage top-level players to help new players would certainly be beneficial in hooking those new players for a long time.

I'm kinda split one this one.
I have helped at my league a couple times, and it is VERY hard running a league tournament. Alot of times I even give out some of my cards when the kids ask for them and have nothing to trade.
I get recognition and respect from the kids at my league, and that's really all I need. I would want anything else, because I enjoy helping the game grow (even if only a little, because I'd rather play).
I've even helped demo the game at the JAA (I got 1/2 a box and a jacket for that which I didn't know about before hand). Many of my friends did the same thing.
While some of the things you sugested to fix this would be nice to benifit those who already help ( a Ness award as M45 put it), I think enough people already help this game that the problem isn't big enough yet. It's at an all time low, yes, but It's not low enough.

That's just an opinion though. It may be different outside of the few states I've played pokemon in, so I don't really know too much.

4. Must be a regional thing. It's pretty good around here!

O wait, same here.

 

[Regis_Neo]

Not picking on you, but they don't regularly sweep out the lazy ones. Look at me. I did my time, helped set up a league showed up every week pretty much. What happened? Gotta kick you out because your not 18......what happened to the grandfather clause?
To get to your statement though, all they do is give you a test every year and call it a day. Anyone I'd think thats playes regularly would know enough of the answers on the test to pass.

Well, allegedly they swept out the lazy ones via their policy, but who knows these days. I also got kicked out when they implemented that rule, and I've been too lazy to retake the test lol.

 

[paint panic]

Being a Professor does garner respect from many of my league kids (you know like the ones your advocating the help for).

I completely agree. My friends like that there are people they can ask to get answers on the rules when things get more complicated. I'm not saying that there aren't worthless Professors, but I think the program has a lot of merit.

 

[NoPoke]

.FS: I know you put in a lot of effort and thought into your posts, so I owe you a small appology for my April 1st quip. I'm looking forward to part 3

Peace.

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

I find it funny that the only person who really understands what I'm saying is also the only person I never expected to respond.

Irony at its best.

 

[NoPoke]

Sorry FS I really meant NO offense... you yourself said that you had been painting for several days. I've done lots of painting and it can be both exhausting and leave you light headed.

I really am looking forward to part 3.

you are quite right that I really dont understand what you are saying. You stated that having an 1800 rating would be an ABSOLUTE requirement to address the problems that you propose are present currently. Thats a position statement that I can not understand. The consequences would be so far reaching they would probably destroy OP at a single stroke.

 

[badganondorf]

Great topic again F_S you really do deserve your title.

THE PROBLEMS

• The players have very little say in the operations and development of OP. POP does run forums for the PTOs and professors of this game, but those who are primarily players have little or no contact with POP whatsoever.
  
  
• There are very few benefits for joining this game in comparison to other games. Think about this. If someone decides to quit Yugioh, and start another TCG, the only real TCGs they have to choose from are Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering. Why would anyone choose Pokemon over Magic as far as OP is concerned?
  
  
• The professor program is almost meaningless. Being a professor does not guarantee that you know how to make rulings or judge an event (especially since it is possible to cheat on the test). And, not being a professor is not evidence that you do not know certain rulings. So, what exactly does a professorship mean?
  
  
• Fair play and helpful attitudes seem to be at an all-time low. Anything that would encourage top-level players to help new players would certainly be beneficial in hooking those new players for a long time.

1) I think that POP is listening more and more players opinions thanks to Pokegym as Mike already said. So the new forum isn't that necessary.

2) If people compare MTG's and Pokemon's OP they can find good and bad things in both OPs so I can't really say that MTG's OP is better, it's just more developed and experienced. But there is one thing why people prefer Pokemon to MTG, it's the cost. If you want to be "uber-pro" player in MTG your pocket money won't be enough ever. MTG is soooo much more expensive than Pokemon and that's why people may choose Pokemon over MTG. Of course all people have different goals in card games so if you don't have problem with money issues you could choose Pokemon or MTG, but if you're just an ordinary guy with an ordinary job or you're just a student, pokemon is the way to go.

3) I really can't comment on this because I haven't experienced professor program yet.

4) It's low but I think it isn't all time low, but eitherways it has to change. There is something that POP could do for this. When I read Tego's posts from Japan I noticed that people cann get extra points if they write an article about issues in pokemon, new archetype or things like that. Then there would be few POP people who would read all articles, then publish them monthly on the OP's official site and/or public boards like at the gym. Then there would be a "carrot" to people who write those articles, promo cards or something like that. That would cost PUI/POP money but IMO it could encourage good and "uber" players to write articles about everything that's happening around, like you do all the time. Japan has the point system where you can get a promo card every time you reach a goal of X-points so they could try it here too if their budget has enough money for it. They could give points from each article, judging tournaments and being a league leader, that's the best way to hook new players. It would be awesome to kid who has just started a league and his league leader is a World Champion. He/She would be very glad if he/she could get help from a WORLD Champion. That's respect.

REQUIREMENTS

• The candidate should have and maintain a 1800 or better rating. I believe that one of the keys to knowing rulings, and gaining a better understanding of the game, is to play at a competitive level. 1800 should be wholely reachable for anyone of a moderate skill-level.
  
  
• The candidate should help to run a league at least 6 times a year. Basically, forcing good players to help new players. The good players gain more experience in helping people and sharing the game, and the little kids just may become better players. Everyone wins.
  
  
• The candidate judges 3 or more premier events per year. A professorship is most of all a certificate to judge events (that’s really the only thing it is ATM). This one comes as just obvious to me.
  
  
• The candidate acts as a Tournament Organizer at least once per year. Again, just adds more experience to a persons repertoire of skills. Not quite as important as the ones above.
  
  
• The candidate helps demo the game (at a major gaming convention or something similar) at least once per year. Building on the ‘good players helping new players’ ideal, but in a slightly different context.
  
  
• The candidate submits letters of recommendation to re-affirm their intentions are only good. If someone helps in league, but is a complete jerk about it, then that shouldn’t count towards their requirements. This is pretty simple to understand.

1) As already said that wouldn't be very good idea. BDS wouldn't ever be the highest professor because he organizes and judges judges tournaments and that's what's the most important thing, but that's about it.

2) This is very important as you said everybody wins when all people run leagues and that's how OP grows in all regions. Leading the leagues and helping little children is the best that people can do to help the game grow.

3) 3 Premier Events would be just fine but when thinking of this, we have to remember that people in other regions have more Premier tournaments than people in the other regions. So that should be considered when thinking the amount of Premier Tournaments.

4) Agreed.

5) This is what I think very important too. People has to find their way to league somehow and someone has to told them where and when and what are the leagues. We just can't hope that people find their way to league someone has to "show them the way". This is VERY important.

6) That should be the easiest part of the system.

BENEFITS
Once again, Bold are those things I think would be hugely popular, normal type are things I think would be a good idea.

• Extra POP packs each quarter. Probably the lamest (from my perspective at least) thing on the list, but it’s a possibility none-the-less.
  
  
• Optional Round 1 bye at any premier event. This has never been discussed before (to my knowledge), but I think it would be an awesome idea. A Round 1 bye is a free win, and pads your resistance slightly. Any competitive player would LOVE this, and be more than willing to help in League a few times in order to get this power. BTW, this costs POP no money to implement, so that is a major positive.
  
  
• Access to forums on the same (or close to same) level as the PTO forums. Or maybe just an extra board on the professor forums. As long as there is a theatre where the best players and POP officials can discuss the game frankly, it can only be of benefit to all involved.
  
  
• Special items in the professor store. A distinct possibility. It would cost POP more money, but the option is always there.
  
  
• Ability to judge matches in a tournament you’re participating in. I think this one is hugely important, probably the second most important on the list. Judges can be terribly overworked at small events. I think finding a way to allow high-caliber players to both play AND judge an event would be beneficial to almost everyone. Of course, any questionable rulings can still be appealed to the HJ. And, there would need to be some restriction on ‘scouting’ the competition; but that is done very easily. Again, this is one that costs POP no money to implement.
  
  
• Special promos, either given out at the end of the year, or when certain milestones are reached. People like promo cards. And, the higher the resale value, the more people like them. :wink:
  
  
• Rating Protection. Many possible ways this one could work. This one is very easy to understand, and again, costs POP no money.
  
  
• Possible Worlds Invites. The most important one. People like Worlds. They will do almost anything to guarantee an invite for themselves. This would be a very effective way of drawing the best players into this program. And don’t tell me that this is impossible because Worlds can’t be of undefined size. There are many possible ways to decide who can and who can’t play in Worlds. As long as the possibility is there, people will go for it.

1) I think if people organize tournament and leads leagues POP boosters are kind of unnecessary stuff, they share them enough at the leagues. And it takes money from POP when they're posting POP5 boosters around the World in the expensive letters. So I think Professors won't need it.

2) This idea is very fresh and it sounds cool. But here would be cool to here if the people who really love to organize league needs those advances. Do they even ever play at the events or do they even want to? But this might be a good "carrot" for players who usually only play, this could make them to lead leagues and judge events so after all this would be a very good idea.

3) This might be a good idea, but we already got the Gym and Professor Forums and as I already said I think POP listens to player very well so this isn't SO necessary.

4) I'm almost sure that every Professor would love to get shiny and Rare thing but after all they do organizing for love to this game not for those prizes and that's why the TO's and league leaders are the people who I personally respect the most. This is also a good suggestion but not necessary.

5) Here is an issue that I have tought about myself. But how would this work. Can the player judge in the event where he plays. He can "scout" other people decks and all that and gain an advantage from their opponents that way. Of course everyone wouldn't do this but I'm sure that there may be players who could use this to help themselves not the TO's and other judges. A very good discussion about this could be made.

6) As I said in 4), Professors lead league leaders do their job because their love for the game and I think that those "player-judges" would never reach this milestone if they do play continously to keep their ranking high enough, so this isn't the number one thing either.

7) How would this work, what would be the milestone in professor points to reach this. This would be also a good idea but the way this would work should be very carefully planned.

8) Worlds trip/ invite would always attract player and TO's to be even more active so I'm lovin this idea even tough PUI's budget would be the only problem here.

THE MORE PLAYERS WE GET INTO THIS GAME, THE BETTER OFF WE ALL ARE.

Amen.

Here are my thoughts and I hope that I brought my point of view clearly enough :smile:

 

[Rainbowgym]

FS -

Problems

1. POP does listen to players if it's about "how to make OP better". They cannot always use all suggestion, but they sure listen. IF you want contact with them, it's possible. You in the USA always had that option, so I don't understand you.
I can only say in regards to contact POP, there has been a huge chance since Dave an Co. took over International. Now we get a real respons iso that terrible "answer machine".
And on top of that, they read and post here on the pokegym.
They will not always give the answers you want, but don't say there is no/little contact possible or players have nothing to say about OP, I simply disagree on that statement.

2. If you only choose to join anything because of the benefits, nothing will satify in the long term.

3. Agreed, it's a kind of bonus system to reward for "doing something for OP". I saw to many professors making real stupid rulings to see it as a "skill determination".

4. If you never learned to help out/play fair you will probably never going to do it, benefit or not, it's something you do or don't.

Requirements,

LOL -- lost hope for me I cannot forfill ANY of the requirements.

Benefits,

I don't care, never had any benefit/reward and I don't think it would have chanced my dedication for the game.


More players the better, YES.

 

[Robbgobb]

I love to play. I am not the greatest judge. I am still learning from one of the best. I accept that I know a lot of card rulings but not all. I don't know all the rules by heart. I have no problem using the book that the PTO keeps with him that has the current rules and compedium.

I am a professor that feels lucky to be a professor. I get some great benefits from it. I try and make sure when I am acting as League Leader or Pokemon Professor that I try and be there for everyone that needs help. When not in those roles I sometimes am doing my own thing but most times still do everything that I do as a League Leader or Pokemon Professor.

I am thankful to Pokemon Programs that the staff has going. Thanks to all of them. Thanks to the people who run PokeGym as well. I have been troublesome here and in the Pokemon forums (mainly Professor one there) and they still act very nice and responsive. I don't explain my points very well (ask my wife who gets mad at some things I say wrong) and anyone I have dealt with from either place has stayed courtesy and friendly with me. That makes me proud to be allowed to be a Professor.

All these statements of what is needed seems to take away from someone from wanting to do these things to being required. I am judging, have demonstrated the game multiple times, ran league sessions, have a 1750 rating which is too low for what is suggested, I have organized a tournament this year, and I would never ask for letters to prove I am doing such things. I would feel awkward and that I was being bothersome to others for such things.

The benefits I recieve now are all the benefits that I require. The suggested things don't interest me. I don't need byes or anything. I don't want access to PTO forums. I understand they get some information ahead of time and I don't even want to think about trying to find leaks to the information getting out. If I was to judge in an event I participated in then it would be after I was no longer playing and would not be in my age group for sure. That would only happen if was truly needed and normally it is not. PTOs though is someone I would trust could play and when finished could help judge if necessary. They are held to higher standards and so I place my trust in them. The trips seems to me like a landmine waiting to be stepped on. I pass there as well.

 

[Spotter]

Some of these seem entirely reasonable, and some seem a little overboard. Keep in mind that some of our top judges never have the opportunity to play in anything but the Professor Cup because they're too busy organizing events for you folks to play in. I really don't see BDS finding the time to run as many premier events as he does and maintaining an 1800 rating. :wink:

Out of all the thing's in F_S's suggestions, this was the one that caught me eye as well. So far this year I've managed to play in a total of three Premier events (all City Championships) to raise my rating to a whopping 1612.

In that same period, I've run my own league, judged in 5 City Championships, two prereleases, two State Championships and four Battle Roads. I think I'm actually going to be able to play in the last Battle Road here in N. Texas. Other obligations have kept me from Regionals and Nationals this year.

Quite simply, most professors are too busy promoting the game to achieve that kind of high playing standard. I'd love to play more - I enjoy the heck out of the game. But I understand that if no one steps up and helps put these events on, they won't happen.

S.