Data Manipulation in Pokemon

[MegaVelocibot]

There have been a lot of topics drifting... well, off topic, regarding data manipulation in the Pokémon video games. Whether it be as "innocent" as soft resetting to get the IVs you wanted on that Dialga to the usage of the Pokesav program, data manipulation has been an important part of the video games. I open this thread so that others may voice their opinions on these matters in one place, direct others to here when topics go off topic and onto this topic, and things of the like. Note that I cannot offer statistics as to how many people operate under these principles, just that they exist. It is times like these I think of how the Pokémon TCG would operate if such glitches could be used in real life. Now, let us begin...

Duplication of Items:
Item duplication is seen at worst as bad as any hack, and by many as a necessary evil to finish up teams, by duplicating many one-time use items (TMs, Rare Candies, PP Max, etc.). Many people have used the "duplication of '6th item' slot" code from Missingno. to get Rare Candies and PP Maxs. Likewise, Emerald's "cloning" glitch allowed for the same effect, albeit far slower. Transferring from Emerald allowed for 6 of these items a day to be brought over, more if the "cartridge-switch-and-day-advance" glitch is used, all without a Gameshark or Action Replay. Also, items can be put onto GTS-cloned Pokémon. Still, it can be done with said cheating devices. The difference? One requires more work, with the duplication method getting progressively harder through the generations. The one-time need for RB duplication (mass effect) surpasses the ease of Gold and Silver's 1 item/Pokémon duplication method. (Missingno. duplication > Gold/Silver cloning > Emerald cloning > GTS cloning.)

Duplication of Pokémon:
Pokémon duplication is, for me, of a somewhat more questionable nature. Where an item is just an item, with all of them the same except for what type of item it is, Pokémon differ from each other by species, IVs, EVs, moves, and important to some, shininess. Again, methods for cloning Pokémon have been found in each generation... Why? I suppose for the need, if you will, for a person to eat their cake and have it too; that is, for them to be able to trade or retrain a Pokémon and still have a copy of the previous version. Again, why is this? Perhaps the same reason we save computer files: so that we have a copy to go back on if things go sour. If we don't like the trade we got? Still have the Pokémon we "traded". Messed up training somehow, evolving it before it learned a crucial move that it can't learn at a later level? Revert to saved. Just have a really rare (read: usually shiny) Pokémon that you want to use as a $100 bill to buy other people's (usually equally rare) Pokémon which, for the same reasons as you, they probably cloned so as to not lose value?

Creation of Pokémon/Items:
Ooo... Oh no, taboo time. Such a sensitive topic. Mewtwo clones Pokémon in the movie, and makes them stronger. Why shouldn't you? The creation of Pokémon from scratch... It usually leads to the best stats being put on Pokémon, all 31 IVs, with 510 perfectly distributed EVs... Sometimes even more than that (legal) limit. Giving it moves it should take Egg Move chains to do (or even illegal moves). What is the difference between moves this way, and the "Transform-Mimic" glitch? What's the difference between breeding Pokémon and just making them? Time. Time is such an important factor. If it were easy, most people would just take the all 31-IV Pokémon, and not invest time in doing so. However, this is seen as wrong by most, cutting the metaphorical line of waiting for the Pokémon, of raising it with care.

If you could beat the game by pushing a button, where is the satisfaction, some ask. Some people want to just finish the game so they can do after-game events quicker. Some want to play through the story as Nintendo intends it. Some don’t mind altering the game through glitches in it, but not "cheating" with game-altering devices. Some are of the mentality that "it's my game, I should be able to do whatever I want with it". All I say is that some people want things handed to them on a platter, some people want to go to the supermarket, and some people want to go out into the field and grow the ingredients from scratch.

I open this topic for discussion of moral and ethical viewpoints and justifications, as well as the discussion of methods of data manipulation within the Pokémon video games. Please, type responsibly, remain civil, and remember: you can argue your viewpoints as much as you want, just know the difference between that and insulting the viewpoint of someone else. Likewise, know that if you speak here, you may be argued against, so know that you bring that upon yourself.

 

[Marril]

Alternate thread title: "Hey Marril, Want To Argue Like Stink?"

A good, standard rule of thumb is that if it's supported within the game itself, it's just fine. Resetting for DVs on a legendary falls into this category—if they wanted uncontrollable DVs, they'd have done like the dogs in GSC or Latis in RuSa and have the genetics rolled far before they're sanely controllable. Randomly rolled-on-encounter stats are part of the game's design. Thus, making use of this fact is simply making use of an intended feature of the game.

However, the area quickly shifts into the side of "cheating" when you (ab)use functions not meant to be in the game. Using bugs and glitches in a conscious, premeditated manner is, frankly, cheating. You're breaking the implied rules set down by the game's creators and thus are gaining an advantage, whether tangible ingame or simply temporal in nature, over other players. It simply spreads to the lowest common denominator of what your opponent does. If your opponent hacks their Pokémon to have 31s across the DV board, then what's the point of your careful breeding? You spend hours for an end, and they only spend minutes for that same end. If your opponent clones the heck out of items, then attaining any more than one of those items the intended way, yourself, is a waste of time. You're on unequal ground as long as you stay within the implied expectations of the game. That last sentence, in a nutshell, is the definition of when you know something is "cheating."

The TCG analogy actually offers an interesting parallel. Imagine, for example, only needing to buy a single copy of a card. You then print off additional, exact copies of that card, either for your own use or for trading. This is what cloning is. No ifs, no ands, and no buts. It gets even better when you take trading into account. That deck someone spent dozens or even hundreds of dollars building? They clone it up, and all their friends are playing it at the next tournament, for free. You'd certainly feel like a schmuck for getting all your expensive cards the hard way. Sharking in the TCG sense is only a simple extension of this—the main difference is that you don't need to own a single copy before you start making your own cards.

If people are going to cheat, I actually have little problem with that, assuming they man up and admit it. That way, only other people who either cheat or are accepting of cheating will play with them. It also shows the moral fortitude to acknowledge what it is you're doing, to take responsibility for your actions.

 

[MegaVelocibot]

Alternate thread title: "Hey Marril, Want To Argue Like Stink?"

Well... yeah. :lol:

A good, standard rule of thumb is that if it's supported within the game itself, it's just fine.

Could you be a bit more specific? Stealing money from the bank in Monopoly when no one is looking is a feature supported in the game.

Resetting for DVs on a legendary falls into this category—if they wanted uncontrollable DVs, they'd have done like the dogs in GSC or Latis in RuSa and have the genetics rolled far before they're sanely controllable. Randomly rolled-on-encounter stats are part of the game's design. Thus, making use of this fact is simply making use of an intended feature of the game.

I don't know... it always seemed a bit on the realm of iffy to me... I mean, I know one could hatch eggs over and over to try to get the wanted stats, but encountering legendaries and taking advantage of the reroll, even if the odds are horrible for way above average stats just seems like... I'm not sure. I can't draw an accurate analogy at the moment.

However, the area quickly shifts into the side of "cheating" when you (ab)use functions not meant to be in the game. Using bugs and glitches in a conscious, premeditated manner is, frankly, cheating. You're breaking the implied rules set down by the game's creators and thus are gaining an advantage, whether tangible ingame or simply temporal in nature, over other players. It simply spreads to the lowest common denominator of what your opponent does. If your opponent hacks their Pokémon to have 31s across the DV board, then what's the point of your careful breeding? You spend hours for an end, and they only spend minutes for that same end. If your opponent clones the heck out of items, then attaining any more than one of those items the intended way, yourself, is a waste of time. You're on unequal ground as long as you stay within the implied expectations of the game. That last sentence, in a nutshell, is the definition of when you know something is "cheating."

I must say, I do agree with you on these points of hacking.

The TCG analogy actually offers an interesting parallel. Imagine, for example, only needing to buy a single copy of a card. You then print off additional, exact copies of that card, either for your own use or for trading. This is what cloning is. No ifs, no ands, and no buts. It gets even better when you take trading into account. That deck someone spent dozens or even hundreds of dollars building? They clone it up, and all their friends are playing it at the next tournament, for free. You'd certainly feel like a schmuck for getting all your expensive cards the hard way. Sharking in the TCG sense is only a simple extension of this—the main difference is that you don't need to own a single copy before you start making your own cards.

Thanks for expanding upon my analogy. I was going to get to this, but... well, I was too tired. xD

If people are going to cheat, I actually have little problem with that, assuming they man up and admit it. That way, only other people who either cheat or are accepting of cheating will play with them. It also shows the moral fortitude to acknowledge what it is you're doing, to take responsibility for your actions.

Again, my feelings about cheating, 'sharking and the like: when I intend to do things in a way others might consider cheating, I let them know. For example, my friends and I, every now and then, host our own event called the Humor Cup, where we get out all our hacking urges for battling... in a completely non-competitive way. Most of the time, it's just for amusement, such as a normal-stated Explosion-using Magikarp, Splashing Suicune, Licking Wailord, Flashing Jynx, Camouflaged Kecleon or Tickling Primeape. Once we get all of it out of our systems, we go back to, by honor-system, raising Pokemon on our own, without cheating. Why, when we could have it so much quicker the other way? The feeling of satisfaction that we did it. That's why I never clone any Pokemon I intend to trade. Do we duplicate Pokemon for the sake of EV training, or deciding to evolve or not? Yep. We all do it, we agree on it, and we play by those rules. As long as everyone agrees, we're fine sticking to the rules we set. Do we duplicate PP Maxes? Yep. TMs that we can't buy copies of? Sure. Rare Candies? Nope. Buyable TMs? Oddly, no. Why, if they're both the same, as being items? We like to level them up the "old-fashioned" way. Maybe we're odd... but we have fun, and it's not at the expense of others.

 

[Regis_Neo]

You know, you ain't going to settle anything on this matter, and it'll all erupt into flaming probably shortly...

 

[MegaVelocibot]

You know, you ain't going to settle anything on this matter, and it'll all erupt into flaming probably shortly...

Who said anything about settling things? I meant this to be an open forum of topic discussion.

 

[Marril]

Could you be a bit more specific? Stealing money from the bank in Monopoly when no one is looking is a feature supported in the game.

That falls under breaking the inherent expectations of players though. When almost anyone goes into a game of Monopoly, they're going to assume that nobody steals money from the bank.

Do we duplicate Pokemon for the sake of EV training, or deciding to evolve or not? Yep. We all do it, we agree on it, and we play by those rules. As long as everyone agrees, we're fine sticking to the rules we set. Do we duplicate PP Maxes? Yep. TMs that we can't buy copies of? Sure. Rare Candies? Nope. Buyable TMs? Oddly, no. Why, if they're both the same, as being items? We like to level them up the "old-fashioned" way. Maybe we're odd... but we have fun, and it's not at the expense of others.

This is fine as long as anyone you're playing with is told of this and agrees to play with you regardless. I'm not one of those people, but I highly doubt you expect or even want me to be.

For the record, the only things I've even really considered hacking the ROM to get are event-only Pokémon which I have no chance of getting normally. The only thing stopping me from actually doing so is, funnily enough, laziness. Cloning doesn't interest me in the slightest.

EDIT:

it'll all erupt into flaming probably shortly...

I dunno... but I can definitely assure everyone that Marrils don't flame, so as long as nobody else does, we should be fine.

 

[MegaVelocibot]

That falls under breaking the inherent expectations of players though. When almost anyone goes into a game of Monopoly, they're going to assume that nobody steals money from the bank.
...
This is fine as long as anyone you're playing with is told of this and agrees to play with you regardless. I'm not one of those people, but I highly doubt you expect or even want me to be.

Of course not. I'm fine with people using Rare Candies to level up and other stuff. It's something I've come to expect. Still, the real thrill of the game comes not with playing against random others, but against my friends, falling into the "having fun, but not at the expense of others" clause of mine. I never expect anyone to follow one of my house rules, since... well, I doubt they know of me. Even if they did, I don't want to interfere with their fun... as long as they don't try to interfere with mine. That's one of my inherent expectations, I suppose.

 

[Marril]

Levelling with Rare Candies is fine. Spending the time to accumulate 48(?) BP a pop, or harvest them with Pickup, is fine and dandy. Duping them an arbitrary number of times is neither fine nor dandy, and I wouldn't play against someone who does.

If that part wasn't clear, then I apologize.

 

[MegaVelocibot]

Levelling with Rare Candies is fine. Spending the time to accumulate 48(?) BP a pop, or harvest them with Pickup, is fine and dandy. Duping them an arbitrary number of times is neither fine nor dandy, and I wouldn't play against someone who does.

If that part wasn't clear, then I apologize.

Ah, sorry. Didn't interpret it that way. I agree with you on that as well.

 

[vietgamer1021]

well

theres also proving that they hack right? thats a bit hard especially if they noe wat they are doing and the hacked stuff gets through PBR

but i am an honorable person, and my pokemon are not hacked (until i get an explosion pichu)

but taking the time do breed/reset/catch for perfect IVs as to hacking them, makes you a rtue pokemon player if you really want to spend the time to do that

ppl may argue that hacking pokemon is like netbattle/competitor but in real life, it speeds up the process of getting perfect IVs

perfect IVs means hidden power at the highest pwer and exact type, but a perfect hidden power is hard to obtain in real life

i will admit that i have hacked pokemon that worked, but i have never used them, and i never will until someone absoultely forces me to do that

but i do not like hacking for fun play or compettive play in DP, its not honorable

 

[The King Of Magikarps]

All the things in post #1 to me are considered cheating. Pokemon has the biggest problem with hacking and cheating due to the fact of GTS and PBR. Nintendo really needs to step up on anti-cheating on its Wi-Fi servers.

 

[EeveeLover929]

I'm only going to post in this thread once as it's just a flame war waiting to happen. My belief is that using things such as AR or Gameshark are both very much cheating. It is, to use the same analogy that MV used before, stealing money from the bank in Monopoly when no one is looking. It's taking something very easily. Soft resetting the game to get a perfect IV Legendary is also wrong, as it is also too easy. Emerald Cloning Glitch, eh, that's still a little sketchy ethics wise, but better. Then we look at the E4 Door Glitch and the D/P Cloning Glitch. These both require concentration and patience, and need actual work in order to be done. Precise timing for the D/P Cloning, an enormous amount of patience and focus for the E4 Door Glitch, etc., as long as it requires work, it's okay. Still cheating, but no one can accuse you of doing anything wrong. Well, they can, but you get the option of ignoring them completely without a guilty conscience. That's my honest opinion. and now, in order to avoid the impending arguments and possibly flame war, I bid you all adieu.

 

[ColdCoates90]

Soft reseting for a good legendary is as legit as it gets. ;/

 

[The King Of Magikarps]

Soft reseting for a good legendary is as legit as it gets. ;/

That I have no problem with it as you are not using a cheat device or glitch or modding anything in the game.

 

[vaporeon]

That I have no problem with it as you are not using a cheat device or glitch or modding anything in the game.

I agree as well. That is what I did. Its just like IV breeding but a lot harder.

 

[Marril]

All the things in post #1 to me are considered cheating.

Mind explaining to the rest of the forum how resetting for good DVs on a legendary is considered cheating?

EDIT: Bah, I idled/afk'ed far too long at the Post Reply screen and was beaten. I'll shift the question onto EeveeLover929 then, despite that he said he's not posting again in this thread.

Still cheating, but no one can accuse you of doing anything wrong.

Oh, if only I had sig room left. "Cheating isn't wrong as long as it takes effort?" I'm glad he's only posting in this thread once.

I mean, can't we all just agree on the fact that cheating is wrong?

 

[MegaVelocibot]

I mean, can't we all just agree on the fact that cheating is wrong?

Never, so long as we have the ability to rationalize and make excuses for our actions.

 

[Marril]

Well, I actually went and dug up a debate from Azure Heights on the subject. I think this quote from the nigh infinitely respectable Mr. K sums up how I feel personally:

OK, here's what I object to, and why I am so annoyed with this line of thinking...all your rationalization are belong to bull****.
To recap:

1. It is not cheating, because it is only cheating a little bit.
2. It is not cheating, because it's hard to cheat.
3. It is not cheating, because I know what I'm doing.
4. It is not cheating, because I don't like the rules.
5. It is not cheating, if I can get away with it.

And, the key factor here, which seems to tie most of you together...

6. It is not cheating, because I don't want to be called a cheater.

I cannot think of a clearer example of cheating than using a Game Shark. It is the very essence of what cheating is all about.

Some of you seem to think that because you cheat within certain parameters (ie, "I only cheat a little"), that that's not cheating. You might be cheating with more respect than others, but it's still cheating. This is clear because you have made up your own personal rules about the game. You can't do that without a device that allows you to modify the rules of the game.

As for what's wrong with cheating...I can admit that there are some cases in which I'd consider it OK. For example, if there's "No Holds Barred, Shark Til You Drop" Tourney, then, within that context, Sharking is probably not, technically, cheating. I would describe it as a contest in which cheating is acceptable, but that's just a technicality.

The main issue, however, is that the default condition should not be cheating. The people who don't cheat do not need to justify their methods to the cheaters. It is up to the cheaters to attempt to defend themselves, and so far "it's convenient" is the best any of them have come up with.

That don't cut it.

If two people go into a match with the explicit understanding that you're going to cheat, well, then, morally I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't have a problem with turning the game into anything else you like with another willing player. If two people decide to play ping pong and have each point worth 37 points and hitting it on the second bounce is OK, well, there's nothing at all wrong with that...except that they aren't really playing ping pong.

I don't subscribe to the idea that there is some "higher law" created by Nintendo, the breaking of which exposes a lack of morals and ethics. The ethical problem is not with regards to breaking The Law of Nintendo, but with behaving in a way that is unfair to another player.

If everyone you play with agrees that Sharking is just fine, then there's no moral issue.

The issue I'm talking about is having a match with a stranger, with whom you've made no agreement that cheating is OK.

Most pro-cloners I've seen on the 'Gym use article 4 from the top as their defense, and some use article 1. Some, like EeveeLover929, use articles 2 and 3. Article 5 is implied or stated explicitly in every case. However, all sharkers and cloners use article 6. Nobody likes to be called a cheater, even when they're cheating.

EDIT: I decided I may as well put the whole big entire post in there at once. I know not all of it is relevant to the discussion at hand, but the first parts sum up cheaters in an almost universal fashion, and there are very good points intersperced throughout.

EDIT THE SECOND: You know what? Mods can remove this link if they really want (Azure's rules are... rather looser than the 'Gym's—this is PG-13+, you have been warned), but here is too good a debate to avoid linking to (note: these are perhaps some of the most influential Pokémon players ever).

 

[The King Of Magikarps]

You are still a cheater.

 

[EeveeLover929]

Alright, this is going to be my last post, simply to explain what I ssaid a little more clearly. What I meant by that was neither "It's not cheating because I know what I'm doing" or "It's not cheating because it's hard". I explicitly and outright said that it is in fact cheating. What I'm saying is that as long as it requires exactly the same amount of effort, patience, focus, etc. as if you did it legitimately, there shouldn't be a problem. Let's compare and contrast, for instance, hacking a Pokemon as opposed to cloning one. Now,with cloning, even if I clone a fully EV Trained Pokemon, it takes an immense amount of patience and concentration to do so, which, if you have a Vs. Seeker, which probably everyone who is currently EV training does, is exactly what EV Training takes. At the very least for speed, cause all you have to do is battle the Magikarp trainer over and over again, not very interesting. At the same time, unless you can perfectly predict exactly when the trade is going to finish (impossible for me, my router fluxes all the time so it could be anywhere from seven spins to nine and a half, although recently it just won't let me in period), it requires a lot of time and patience to get the pattern that it's going at at that moment. About the same amount of, if not more effort as if I were to go out, catchy a new pokemon, and EV train it myself. The reason I do it, however, is that while it takes more concentration, I can concentrate on a game screen at all hours of the day, but it's something I can just ju8mp right into as opposed to determining who I have to battle how many times and then going where plus having to go t the Battle Tower to win a whole bunch of vitamins and then getting all the TMs that will allow me to customize my Pokemon's moveset, etc. Though it takes a bit more work, it requires a bit less prep, and therefore that balances it out, as well as giving people a fair choice. Then we look at Sharking. It requires little to no work and preparation to Shark a pokemon, and you can just think on a whim, okay, I'll go onto the internet, get the codes for a perfectly trained Darkrai with perfect IVs and no one will ever know haha lol I PWN U ALL!!!!, and then ten minutes later have exactly that. Do people actually do that? Yes. Does it bite? You bet it does. Can we do anything to stop it? No we can't, but we can sure as **** turn all the dirty looks that people like me get for doing the cheating that no one should even care about and point them at the people who do cheating that is a much bigger deal. I'll tell you what, when you can find a way to stop all of the morons who use Gameshark and Action Replay for their cheating and then you can turn the angry looks at us cloners, because quite frankly any other way makes me question all of your priorities.