Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Data Manipulation in Pokemon

I explicitly and outright said that it is in fact cheating.

I know this. Which is why I pounced on you because you said, "it's cheating, but it's not wrong." Your rationale, however, was "because it's hard to cheat." This is total, complete, and frank utter bull patootie.

You can rationalize it away to yourself, but there is no magical point where cheating goes from "okay" to "not okay." And there's certainly no point defined by EeveeLover929 where cheating goes from "okay" to "not okay." It doesn't matter that you're using the cloning glitch for happy little prize Pokémon instead of duping max-DV Dialgas and trading them off to anyone who wants one. It doesn't matter how hard it is to cheat, or that you gain little from doing so. Cheating is wrong, and you're still cheating.
 
"What I'm saying is that as long as it requires exactly the same amount of effort, patience, focus, etc. as if you did it legitimately, there shouldn't be a problem." ... "it requires a lot of time and patience to get the pattern that it's going at at that moment. About the same amount of, if not more effort as if I were to go out, catchy a new pokemon, and EV train it myself. The reason I do it, however, is that while it takes more concentration, I can concentrate on a game screen at all hours of the day, but it's something I can just ju8mp right into as opposed to determining who I have to battle how many times and then going where plus having to go t the Battle Tower to win a whole bunch of vitamins and then getting all the TMs that will allow me to customize my Pokemon's moveset, etc. Though it takes a bit more work, it requires a bit less prep, and therefore that balances it out, as well as giving people a fair choice."

I will be honest: once again, I admittedly am an Action Replay user, but I never use it when it comes to playing against others. I have one game dedicated to fair play, a second which I only "hacked duplications" (999 of items, TMs, and easy Pokemon-cloning) and Action Replayed a few specific, non-perfect Pokemon (high random IVs, varying between 16 and 29, if I remember correctly), and a third that's full-blown hacked (catching a Level 100 Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus on Route 201 in Cherish Balls, anyone?). Which game do I use to play others when it comes to actual competition? The first one. Why do I even have the others? One was partially for writing a fanfiction, but it never got too far, so all I did was finish the game while taking notes at key events, so if I want to get it done, I can. I transfered the Action Replayed Pokemon onto the third game, as well as transfered any Pokemon that I had EV trained, and then reset it to go "legit". So, now I have two legit games that I play often, and one hacked-to-heck one that I almost never use. Seriously, it just sits there most of the time. I hadn't gotten past Jubilife, because I just got bored playing it.

What am I trying to say here? What point am I making? I have no idea. I forgot while retelling all that. *looks back up to what I quoted* Oh, right. Analogy time. I'll be honest, this one could sting a bit, but I don't mean to hurt anyone.

Assume that, as the often-quoted saying goes, time is money. A trained Pokemon is, then, an investment of time, therefore an investment of real-world money to create. In the real world, if one were to work, then one would (hopefully) earn money for their wages at their job (ignoring volunteer work). By your logic, if I use "exactly the same amount of effort, patience, focus, etc." to steal money from my workplace as I would by doing my actual work... then there shouldn't be a problem.

If it isn't a problem, why do it illegitimately, if you get the same outcome? The answer, I believe, is why people play the lottery. They put a small amount of money in, expecting that they will have the chance to win. A fraction of a sliver of a chance, but that they could, and all they had to do in the way of work was put the money in. And who would say that they got the money illegitimately? Anyone had the chance of winning, it just happened to be them.

The difference is that lotteries (in certain places) are allowed, the government gets a whole lot of that money, and sometimes doesn't have to even give any out, since no one wins the big one.

The Action Replay, used to create Pokemon for play against opponents who do not consent to that matter (which I assume is the main complaint, seeing as if it isn't used that way, it should have no bearing) or for breeding "more legit" Pokemon (which is still cheating, because one is making data from illegitimate data) is like counterfeiting. Okay, maybe that's a bad example, but still, I'm trying for the whole money thing. People would say that's wrong, but comparing that to stealing a little bit of money from work, over and over again, each day?
 
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So this is where all the debaters went...

Apparently (from reading the linked topic) I wasn't the first to suggest separating the true game and simulator/perfect game. The problem is that as long as an AR can hack perfectly, this is very unlikely to happen. And now for an explanation for why this may not be so horrible, I'll go back to the TCG analogy...

First, you have to think about the intended way of getting cards/Pokemon for use:
TCG: Gather cards from random booster packs to build decks of varying quality, as some cards are better than others. Cards are identical, but which cards you get are random. Some cards are very hard to find (like Level X's and that new super-rare trainer) and are very good.
Video Game: Gather random Pokemon from the wild to build teams of varying quality, as some Pokemon are better than others. You always know where to find a certain Pokemon, but some Pokemon of a species are better than others. The best Pokemon of a species are very hard to find.

However, there are ways that are not intended by the makers of the game to try to circumvent this randomness:
TCG: Buying singles
Video Game: Sharking legitly (yes, I just compared buying singles to sharking)

Think about it. They are both circumventing randomness and saving something:
TCG: Saving money
Video Game: Saving time

There is also a level where that money and time becomes no factor (a "Pro Tour"/Simulator), so the issue comes to that lower tier. There are even more comparisons (such as that the other way is sometimes not available, or that they aren't always used to the highest level), but I'll leave that idea here.

Just a thought. Be kind.:wink:
 
So this is where all the debaters went...
Yup. Just thought I'd help tidy things up. ^_^

Apparently (from reading the linked topic) I wasn't the first to suggest separating the true game and simulator/perfect game. The problem is that as long as an AR can hack perfectly, this is very unlikely to happen. And now for an explanation for why this may not be so horrible, I'll go back to the TCG analogy...

First, you have to think about the intended way of getting cards/Pokemon for use:
TCG: Gather cards from random booster packs to build decks of varying quality, as some cards are better than others. Cards are identical, but which cards you get are random. Some cards are very hard to find (like Level X's and that new super-rare trainer) and are very good.
Video Game: Gather random Pokemon from the wild to build teams of varying quality, as some Pokemon are better than others. You always know where to find a certain Pokemon, but some Pokemon of a species are better than others. The best Pokemon of a species are very hard to find.

However, there are ways that are not intended by the makers of the game to try to circumvent this randomness:
TCG: Buying singles
Video Game: Sharking legitly (yes, I just compared buying singles to sharking)

Think about it. They are both circumventing randomness and saving something:
TCG: Saving money
Video Game: Saving time

There is also a level where that money and time becomes no factor (a "Pro Tour"/Simulator), so the issue comes to that lower tier. There are even more comparisons (such as that the other way is sometimes not available, or that they aren't always used to the highest level), but I'll leave that idea here.

Just a thought. Be kind.:wink:

If you want pure strategy, I recommend Pokemon NetBattle. Let the strategy go on there. Until we have a D/P version of it, I think it should just stay there.

If you want to play the game, play the game. Don't play a version of the game that you hacked stuff into unless your opponents are on equal ground and are allowed to do the same. Even then, you both aren't playing the game... you're playing a version of the game you both cheated on. Cheated around the time it would take to do it normally.
 
However, there are ways that are not intended by the makers of the game to try to circumvent this randomness:
TCG: Buying singles
Video Game: Sharking legitly (yes, I just compared buying singles to sharking)

No. Buying singles is more akin to specifically breeding what you want instead of catching things randomly. Sharking would be printing your own cards.

Fact of the matter is that sharking is cheating, and as long as you're willing to accept that and not play against someone with unannounced sharking then I have little problem. It's when sharkers/cheaters in general try to half-assedly justify their actions as being somehow legit (like EeveeLover929 does) that I have a problem. The same problem, indeed, as Mr. K. While I've never sharked anything, if I ever did then I'd freely admit it, nay shout it from the rooftops, "I'm a cheater and how do you like that?" I most definitely wouldn't say, "I sharked, but I didn't cheat, and even if it was cheating it's okay, because I had Subway for lunch." A lot of people cheat. As long as they have the guts to admit that and acknowledge what they're doing, then I'm fine with that.

Worth repeating the quote here:

Mr. K said:
Pokemon, no matter what anyone says, is not just about link battles. PBS is not Pokemon.

Heck, I'll throw in this one as well, because there is no such thing as legit sharking:

Mr. K said:
Stop insulting me by saying that hacking the ****ing RAM to make the game conform to your specs is not cheating.
 
But when breeding, can you choose exactly what you'll get? Breeding makes things less random, but it is still random. Printing your own cards will get you in trouble in any non-major tournament (like how PBR catches any bad hacking), but legit hacking is treated exactly the same by the games as raising something naturally.

While I don't hack (or even own an updated AR device), I'm admitting there's no way to stop it. Heck, even one of Smogon's "official" tournaments over Wi-Fi had someone get almost to the finals who was doing much worse than legitimate hacking (though he finally was caught). Unless you have a better idea, we just have to deal with it.
 
Would you stop saying that there's such a thing as legit hacking? You're insulting not only my intelligence but the intelligence of any truly legitimate player. Cheating is never legitimate, except maybe in the case of some "shark til you drop" tournament. Sharking gives you an immense, and frankly unmatchable temporal advantage over a non-sharker. What it takes a non-sharker many hours to attain takes a sharker all of a few minutes. Just because the game lets you get away with it doesn't make it right.

While sharking is going to occur as long as Smogon-minded people try to turn wifi into some new form of Netbattle complete with perfectly manipulated genes on everything being the standard, the least we can do is not accept it.

"Legit sharking" is crap. Stop bringing it up.

EDIT: It's like saying it's perfectly fine and dandy for me to stack my deck in the TCG and draw extra cards and "miscalculate" damage and so on, as long as I don't get caught.
 
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Sharking gives you an immense, and frankly unmatchable temporal advantage over a non-sharker. What it takes a non-sharker many hours to attain takes a sharker all of a few minutes.

Really now? Because what it takes a non-sharker many hours to attain also takes a non-sharking cloner many hours to attain. So, the time and difficulty do make a difference in your eyes, don't they Marril.

That's it, I'm not looking in this thread anymore. Too much temptation to post, to much chance to be drawn into a full scale war. I can not afford any flame wars on my hands, I do not need that on my resume.
 
Really now? Because what it takes a non-sharker many hours to attain also takes a non-sharking cloner many hours to attain. So, the time and difficulty do make a difference in your eyes, don't they Marril.
For the GBA, it takes me (some, near 3/4ths of an hour) time to make a Pokemon with AR by hand-putting in 320 hexadecimal characters on a keyboard that can only be controlled by the D-Pad. About as long as it would take me to clone a Pokemon. Thing is, I can make SO many more copies of it afterwards, and all the non-sharking cloner gets is one, but much quicker by the Emerald glitch.

With my AR DS, all I need is one short code I already put in for cloning Pokemon, that works on any Pokemon, and I could have a game full of the same Pokemon, boxes filled, in no time (it takes me about 90 seconds to fill a box), where the GTS takes a long time to POSSIBLY work.

It's all still cheating. Or, should I say... it's all creating duplicates of a Pokemon, through varying means. Just because I use a hexadecimal paper stamp to do it doesn't mean that the game sees my clones any differently than a duplication glitch's Pokemon, which is not seen any differently as a normal Pokemon.

What COULD be done is for PBR to block all Pokemon with matching Pokemon IDs and stats. This would stop the glitching duplicators. The hackers would just change IDs and names, say they traded the Pokemon from someone else, don't be stupid with the ball if it hatched from an Egg (Egg Moves on it), and if it's caught in a non-Poke Ball, say the proper place it was caught, at the proper level, and have no Egg Moves on it. And then, you could easily argue with the game or Nintendo. Be even more clever, don't duplicate ID number of "traded" Pokemon, vary your Secret ID... And there you have it. One "bona-fide" legit Pokemon. What can they say? "No traded Pokemon in battle?" besides their other clause? Trading is too important to the Pokemon franchise.

That's it, I'm not looking in this thread anymore. Too much temptation to post, to much chance to be drawn into a full scale war. I can not afford any flame wars on my hands, I do not need that on my resume.

Victory by forfeit! Kidding aside... You don't want on your resume that you put all us who argue our points in our place, converting us to your way?

This is why we don't discuss religion and politics at the dinner table: getting into ethics and morals hurts. It hurts when our morals clash on a deep level with those of another, because it almost certainly means one person is "wrong".

And we never want to be that person.
 
This is his what... third, fourth "last post"? I wouldn't say just yet that he's gone for good.

Also if being a known argument victor is a bad thing, then I'm very much guilty of bad things.
 
Out of curiosity, I was wondering... is there any way to get Hyper Beam, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, and Hydro Cannon all onto a Smeargle (with or without manipulating the Mimic-Transform glitch)? I'm all for absurd, unusuable Smeargle movesets: I imported and transfered a Smeargle from Emerald to Pearl, then traded it over to Diamond, just so it could learn Roar of Time and Shadow Force, then back to another Pearl so it could learn Spacial Rend. The fourth move? A Chimecho's Healing Wish.

EDIT: I think it can be done without, using 2v2 battles, but I haven't tried it yet, and can't think of a place where it would work... but it might. Maybe if taking on 2 trainers at once, Sketching one's own Pokemon after trading the Pokemon over?

Also... If a person has a Porygon, Smeargle, a Ditto, and Arceus. Smeargle Sketches a Pokemon that knows Curse, and learns Porygon's Conversion... that would make it ??? type, right? That's the only move type it could be, for Curse, so... does it become ??? type? if it does, could Arceus, using the Mimic-Transform glitch become ???-type without a plate by using that combination on said Smeargle?
 
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just because it isn't released doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the game... its moveset is already programmed into the game.
Well, Darkrai can't learn Spacial Rend and Roar of Time, but they gave it away that way.
 
is there any way to get Hyper Beam, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, and Hydro Cannon all onto a Smeargle

Just fight a Ditto and switch out to Smeargle after it Transforms into the relevant starter?
 
Out of curiosity, I was wondering... is there any way to get Hyper Beam, Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, and Hydro Cannon all onto a Smeargle (with or without manipulating the Mimic-Transform glitch)? I'm all for absurd, unusuable Smeargle movesets: I imported and transfered a Smeargle from Emerald to Pearl, then traded it over to Diamond, just so it could learn Roar of Time and Shadow Force, then back to another Pearl so it could learn Spacial Rend. The fourth move? A Chimecho's Healing Wish.

EDIT: I think it can be done without, using 2v2 battles, but I haven't tried it yet, and can't think of a place where it would work... but it might. Maybe if taking on 2 trainers at once, Sketching one's own Pokemon after trading the Pokemon over?

Also... If a person has a Porygon, Smeargle, a Ditto, and Arceus. Smeargle Sketches a Pokemon that knows Curse, and learns Porygon's Conversion... that would make it ??? type, right? That's the only move type it could be, for Curse, so... does it become ??? type? if it does, could Arceus, using the Mimic-Transform glitch become ???-type without a plate by using that combination on said Smeargle?

Yea, it's possible. I use this place all the time. It's a cafe not to far from Pastoria City. You can have double battles there. Thats how I sketch when I want to mate my Smeargle with something else.
 
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