Netdecking - Good or bad for the game?

[PidgeyCornerFTW]

I've only started playing the Pokemon TCG competitively since 2010. Naturally, I had no idea what a good deck would look like. My initial "competitive" deck ended up being horrible, with many one-of trainers and chunks of weird Pokemon lines thrown in altogether. There was no strategy to the deck at all. Naturally, I, a then-new player, kept getting thrashed by all the competitive decks out there.

Then I started to learn more about "metagame" decks. I remember my first competitive deck was DialgaChomp. The "noob" in me knew absolutely nothing about a proper "deck engine" - I had to google decklists and copy them card-for-card (netdeck). Netdecking really helped me get into the competitive playing field, and without all those decklists online I don't think I would've built subsequent successful decks like LuxChomp, VileGar, and Gyarados.

However, netdecking has had its share of criticism, especially among experienced players. I've heard things like "netdecking discourages originality and is bad for the game", "netdecking defeats the purpose of deckbuilding", and "if everyone copies each other's decklists, where's the point in playing?" I'm not saying these views are wrong; I can understand why players with decklists winning consistently are reluctant to share the lists which they have spent countless playtesting time to fine-tune (I've been in that position before, where people pester me for my tournament-winning lists).

I quote Esa Juntunen in his article on The Deck Out:

I think the number one thing we can learn from this is that netdecking IS good for the game. It helps the game become more versatile (in case of new decks) and even if it doesn’t make the game more versatile, it develops the quality of the decks.

Netdecking is as it best when people take an already “invented” deck and make their own spins for them. That way simple decks like Cobalion/tech Kyurem/Electrode can turn into Kyurem/Cobalion/Terrakion/Jirachi/Electrode. All this in mere months. I really enjoy watching how the players all over the world take a deck idea that I’m able to reveal from Japan and turn it into a great but slightly different deck.

I'd just like to hear the community's views on netdecking.

 

[QD4U]

People are always gonna netdeck and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Well, actually there is one thing you can do. Keep your list hidden! That means there will be one less list for someone to copy.

Now, to the question. Is netdecking bad for the game? I would say no. Is it good for the game? Yes, in one sense. It allows newer players to quickly get into the competitive scene. I don't see anything wrong with a new player copying a deck list and bringing that to a tournament. He's most likely not gonna do well anyway. But it will allow him to quickly understand which cards are good and which aren't.

 

[vaporeon]

Well, everyone here knows my take on this. I play rogue all the time. The last deck I played with was something called Nuketown. A deck I made myself using Electrode Prime as the engine.(Yes I made Electrode cool)

I feel its bad for the game because it does discourage originality. My views on netdecking has changed though. It should be fine for a rookie player new to the game to use a 'netdeck' to see how a proper deck can work for them but use it as a starter deck. As the grow with the game, they should be trying to find cards they like and try to make them work. At our League, me and a friend are the only rogue players.

I feel it should be one's creative genius against another player's creative genius. Sure the best player should win but their deck building skills should be tested as well. The other issue we have are the amount of 'playable' cards we have in our card pool and cards the don't work with black and white cards.

Take a look at it. Out of all the Pokemon playable from HGSS we are seeing today is Magnezone Prime. You may see a Donphan Prime or Yanmega Prime but Magnezone is Winning. You will always see Magnezone at the top tables. Everything from BW will be the dragons. Reshiram. Zekrom, Kyurem and all the new EX Pokemon. Nothing else is playable. Also look at all the one-sided energy acceleration we have.

I for one would like to play my Pidgeot deck at states but Zekrom makes it hard. Its a really card card to me but the cards we have in our card pool makes it hard to play right. I'm kisy going to play Leafeon because its cheap for me. So, I do feel netdecking is a problem and I'll never like it but people don't want to try something new because they want the thinking done for them. Its the way things are.

 

[Mekkah]

Well, everyone here knows my take on this. I play rogue all the time. The last deck I played with was something called Nuketown. A deck I made myself using Electrode Prime as the engine.(Yes I made Electrode cool)

Actually it was the Japanese and then Esa who popularized it ("made it cool"). You might have played it as well, maybe even earlier than the EoJ article, but you failed to popularize it.

Take a look at it. Out of all the Pokemon playable from HGSS we are seeing today is Magnezone Prime.

Electrode Prime? Vileplume? Typhlosion Prime?

 

[vaporeon]

Actually it was the Japanese and then Esa who popularized it ("made it cool"). You might have played it as well, maybe even earlier than the EoJ article, but you failed to popularize it.



Electrode Prime? Vileplume? Typhlosion Prime?

Well, as far as I know, I was the only one in the states with the guts to take Electrode Prime to a tournament and this was way before NV was released. Why can't you just give the credit where it's due. On Magnezone, I was listing attackers. I was basically saying anyone can do well with Magnezone, which is why people play it. Vileplume is the same way.

 

[Mekkah]

You claimed you were the one who "made Electrode Prime cool". You didn't. You used it and it didn't catch on.

 

[Victory Bell]

Another thread that pops up every two years or so. Usually it turns into a pretty good thread as long as people don't start arguing about who who invented Electrode and who made it actually good.

First, I'd like to say that the OP should remember that when we respond to these kinds of posts, our answers are bias. Somehow in someway we tilt our answers based on our personal experiences. For example, a good amount of the scorn for netdecking comes from experienced players while a more of those in support are players who are average and new players. So try to remember who people are when they post and why they might think what they think.

I disagree with Esa's stance on what netdecking. I think that far to many people use the information on the internet as decks for tournaments. Being able to take a deck and make it your own is a characteristic of a good player, regardless where the original is from. I know one lady who is arrogant enough to think that all the decks at the top tables are netdecks which is why she plays "rogue" (<word I wish we had a standard definition for). One time I got a list from a friend of mine last year during the pre-rotation format. I was desperate for a deck to play at Regionals that wasn't SP. I knew I couldn't compete in the SP mirror vs people like Con Le who had been playing the deck for over a year at that point. The deck I got was Machamp/Vileplume. I ended up taking the deck and playing countless games with it but never keeping any of the changes I made. So I effectively took someone else's deck into Regionals and won with it. But would that be called a netdeck? I got it from a friend, a specially tested list that wasn't public yet. So it was it a rogue or was it a netdeck or was it both?

I think mass netdecking is bad for the game overall. Thankfully that does not really happen unless the deck is posted by a name player such as what happens on 6p UG or EoJ. I have no problem with people using resources that are there. It's not "immoral" to use overpowered cards to win games. Rogue players are not "holier than thou" just because they are the hipsters of the Pokemon world. Some cards are just strong. Not using them in some form solely because they are popular is Scrub Player Syndrome. In Magic all lists that do well are published which I don't think is right. It destroys the work of a select few and gives it to the masses. It might grow the game but in my opinion it is not fair to the players either. If Pokemon did that the backlash would be huge. Some decks offer little chance to outplay your opponent and mirrors come down to luck, something that doesn't happen in Magic as often as it does here. The growth of the game is not more important to the individual than the individual's personal successes in the game. (not trying to speak for anyone else here, I know people disagree with that)

I think that net decking in its current state is fine. People do not rely on the internet for lists and are at least somewhat capable of thinking for themselves. But the tool at least exists for the masses to get a baseline for a deck. I think the internet and Pokegym have been good for the game overall.

 

[PokeMedic]

Oh great, this thread again. This will break down into an argument between two people like it always has in the past. Let me tell you though, it's not even worth worrying about. Where someone got their deck is no one elses business. Some things would be better without the constant input community of fans and players thanks to the internet, but it's not even worth focusing on. Is net decking even bad for the game? Don't answer that. The person is playing the game legitimately. They're not cheating, they're not playing sabledonk, they aren't scoping for their BFF, They just happen to have cards to make a meta deck that is way cooler than yours. There's no need to be upset.

 

[nnaann]

It's important to remember that even without the internet, there is nothing to stop people looking through the opponent's discard pile towards the end of the game in a tournament, and working out their deck list from that. I remember Yamato doing that at Worlds a couple of years ago, when he played against Steelix.

 

[David's Confused Pokedad]

My son and I both tried electrode prime in decks but not before we read Vaporeon's winning report. I tried it with t-tar but failed and David used it with more of the lines that Vaporeon had in his deck. My son brought home a few Victory Cups. I find some people well blame people for netdecking at a prerelease when they run combos that fit. If you really want to be rogue then you have to think like Jimmy B. and play something like Arithmetic. Now that was Rogue.

 

[djjoe227]

Good Netdecking: Grabbing an idea for a deck or a trial decklist, building it, trying it out, making changes, and playing it.

Bad Netdecking: Grabbing a decklist from the internet and bringing it to a tournament.

 

[baby mario]

It's up to everyone to approach the game in the way they think is best. It's not for others to judge them for it. For some people, the fun and achievement is coming up with new ideas, other people just enjoy playing with the BDIF and aren't all that interested in deckbuilding. It's ridiculous to say that one way of doing it is 'right' and the other 'wrong'.

There's a fair amount of hypocrisy over netdecking as well. Getting a list from the internet is bad, getting one from a friend is fine etc.

As long as the game grows, I'm happy.

 

[psychup2034]

You claimed you were the one who "made Electrode Prime cool". You didn't. You used it and it didn't catch on.

While my viewpoints usually differ from Vaporeon's, I have to come to his defense here. He brought it to a tournament and performed successfully before Esa's article was written. While "making Electrode cool" is subjective, the fact that Vaporeon was one of the first people in the States to realize its potential is objective.

Give credit where credit is due.

 

[Victory Bell]

While my viewpoints usually differ from Vaporeon's, I have to come to his defense here. He brought it to a tournament and performed successfully before Esa's article was written. While "making Electrode cool" is subjective, the fact that Vaporeon was one of the first people in the States to realize its potential is objective.

Give credit where credit is due.

Give credit for playing it first sure... Not for making it an archetype I hope.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[psychup2034]

Give credit for playing it first sure... Not for making it an archetype I hope.

Esa's "Eye on Japan" article really helped bring Electrode (Prime) to the spotlight and made it an archtype, but I wouldn't say that Vaporeon didn't contribute to the creation of the deck. Like David's Confused Pokedad, I read Vaporeon's article and built a similar deck, tested it, and got pretty good results. I immediately went to T&T and bought 3 copies when they were still $2.99 a piece.

While Vaporeon didn't popularize the deck as much as Esa, he did save me $30. :lol:

 

[PhadedPhione]

This topic again.

The development of the modern metagame has been forever changed by the internet. Where before, deck building required a ton more time and effort, now you can send a list to a few players around the world and make deck choices based on the available wealth of information. This cuts deck development time by orders of magnitude. Decks are created and changed faster than some people can keep up with.

If you like to build rogue (in this case a metagame counter), you have a treasure trove of information about the top decks at your disposal.

Examples of "rogue" decks (Using Pooka's examples - where rogue means metagame counter):
Team Magma at 2004 Worlds
Delta
Gyarados
Sablelock
Six Corners (had you told anyone that Virizion NV would be in a top tier deck, they would have laughed at you.)
CoKE (it was a pretty good example of japanese ingenuity in deck building. They're known for this in other games too.)

In the case of Gyarados and Sablelock, they became metagame decks. Same with Six Corners and CoKE and its variants.

I see no problem with this.

 

[User Name]

Its funny that people are talking about netdecking in Pokemon.

just some comments:

- Most of the time decks and card combinations are obviously in the Pokemon TCG
- Most of the time still the better pilot wins
- Pokemon has very limited resorces about winning lists, mosly only some (semi good) articels about top decks and a bunch of nonsense from deck bilding part

- Just take a second and look at this MTG site where ALL importent decklist are puplished;
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/standard_deck_hq.asp

than think about it twice if we can realy talk about netdeckig in pokemon.

 

[PhadedPhione]

Its funny that people are talking about netdecking in Pokemon.

just some comments:

- Most of the time decks and card combinations are obviously in the Pokemon TCG
- Most of the time still the better pilot wins
- Pokemon has very limited resorces about winning lists, mosly only some (semi good) articels about top decks and a bunch of nonsense from deck bilding part

- Just take a second and look at this MTG site where ALL importent decklist are puplished;
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/standard_deck_hq.asp

than think about it twice if we can realy talk about netdeckig in pokemon.

Just for perspective, Magic was having these arguments back in 1998 on Usenet and an old site called The Dojo. TCGPlayer (formerly brainburst.com) is a highly developed example of where modern metagame development will go and should go.

This is without counting StarCItyGames and Wizards.com - who both post routine winning lists from every major magic event from Pro Tours and Grand Prix events to the SCG Open.

 

[Victory Bell]

Its funny that people are talking about netdecking in Pokemon.

just some comments:

- Most of the time decks and card combinations are obviously in the Pokemon TCG
- Most of the time still the better pilot wins
- Pokemon has very limited resorces about winning lists, mosly only some (semi good) articels about top decks and a bunch of nonsense from deck bilding part

- Just take a second and look at this MTG site where ALL importent decklist are puplished;
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/standard_deck_hq.asp

than think about it twice if we can realy talk about netdeckig in pokemon.

Not really. Just because it exists in magic on a larger scale doesn't mean we can't be talking. It exists on its own level here, a level that is significant enough to talk about.

The gym isn't the only place to netdeck. 6p is a far better example. You essentially pay to see lists there. Their articles are significantly better than "semi-good". A more open website I won't name has a good deck help section as well. While we don't have winning lists the lists of good players are certainly out there.

Assuming "Obviously" was a typo...

Deck combinations are most certainly NOT always obvious in Pokemon TCG.

Raybees won worlds in 2009. It had never been played before that.
Gardy had basically no hype behind it when it came out in Secret Wonders.
Delta from nats 2006.
Destiny from 2007.
Gengar/Nidoqueen from 2009
The Truth.
The two best decks for US nationals 2011 weren't apparent until Canadian nationals the week before.

Net decking is most apparent with the most obvious decks, that is true. But I don't see how the obviousness of combos in this game helps the argument against this topic...

 

[bullados]

French Gyarados (which turned into Gyaradonk)
Eeveelutions
Nidoqueen winning Worlds (I think it was called Monarchy).

Basically, most of the Meta decks were at one point Rogue decks. There are some things that are obvious, like Magnezone/Eelektrik, or TyRamBoar. But most things are discovered, rather than apparent.