Ambassador VI
New Member
I previously posted this in a thread in your Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion and it hasn't been addressed. I don't know if it's a matter of needing to wait longer on my part or that questions posted there aren't necessarily answered unless they are posted in this Ask the Rules Team forum, so I will cross-post it here in case.
This is a two part question;
1. Can Antique Old Amber evolve into TEU Aerodactyl (and can Antique Helix Fossil evolve into TEU Omanyte, and Antique Dome Fossil evolve into TEU Kabuto)?
2. If the answer is no, can R&D please explain why the Antique cards even have the "Evolves into" text on them at all, since the precedent set by past cards with "Evolves into" text would otherwise mean these cards should be able to evolve into any card with the name indicated?
The reason I ask for this to be answered in two parts is because I am actually already aware of the answer, because it has been posted to pokemon-card.com's Q&A; the answer is apparently no [link; as of Oct 15 2023 it is still the first Q&A in the results].
I think part 2 is an important follow up because I think no is the wrong answerl I believe this to be t the first time in over 20 years I've seen a ruling from the Japanese PCG team (aka PCL, aka "R&D") that doesn't make sense, and in my view contradicts past PCG precedent. To explain how is rather long but those interested in game design and the principles of this card game may find it an interesting read;
The answer is an obvious yes;
- General condition: Cards like Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and Lugia VSTAR create a condition that allows you to put Basic, Stage 1, and/or Stage 2 Pokémon onto your Bench (with some caveats on the types of the Pokémon).
- Specific condition: Fossil Pokémon are essentially the first instance of this concept of 'overriding evolution rules', with cards like the following;
[1] Neo Discovery Omanyte [see Pokémon Power, Revive Fossil];
[2] EX Legend Maker Strange Cave:
These are rather dated examples, and more abound throughout the years, but the answer is yes, and as a consequence of the answer being yes, we've seen examples in more recent years where the English TCG has had to more carefully delineate the idea of an "Evolution Pokémon" from an "evolved Pokémon" (vs the past, where "Evolved Pokémon" was a formal term, as on EX Unseen Forced Hitmonchan).
Example 1: Expedition Pichu (and/or any Baby Pokémon card of the e-Card era)
Example 2: Skyridge Buried Fossil
Example 3: EX Sandstorm Pichu (and/or any other Pokémon card with the Poké-Power Baby Evolution)
Example 4: Helix Fossil Omanyte (and/or Dome Fossil Kabuto, et al.)
Example 5: Ditto Prism Star
Of these five examples, we can look at their relevance to the 151 Fossil card situation by considering the evolution / play condition as a two-way "handshake agreement" of sorts. Does the card putting another card into play "agree" with what the latter card says?
Example 1: No. Pichu does not care what is printed on Pikachu. The "Evolves into" box on Pichu is 'overriding' what a Pikachu card might say. (In theory, I propose that if there were an error Pikachu printed that said it was a Stage 1 Pokémon that evolved from Growlithe, Pichu could still evolve into it.) For example 1, there is not a requirement for a two-way agreement.
Example 2: Somewhat; even though Buried Fossil has the same "Evolves into" box as Pichu, it has more stipulations than what Pichu did; it can only evolve into cards that say they evolve from Mysterious Fossil. For a non-theoretical example, Buried Fossil cannot evolve into MD Kabuto, because even though it is named Kabuto, it says it evolves from Dome Fossil. It's a nonstarter. For example 2, there is a requirement for a two-way agreement.
Example 3: Again, this is similar to Example 1, but we've lost the "Evolves into" box. Still, Pichu is setting the terms for what it can evolve into based on the text of the card, regardless of what it says on Pikachu. For example 3, there is not a requirement for two-way agreement.
Example 4: Fringe case, but that doesn't make it irrlevant – again, no requirement for two-way agreement. Being able to put a Stage 1 Omanyte into play maybe wasn't the intended design purpose of Helix Fossil Omanyte, but it does work to do that.
Example 5: In a way, Ditto Prism Star is nearly a hybrid of other examples. It does not have an "Evolves into" box, and is actively overriding what it says on the cards it is allowing itself to evolve into, but it does have somewhat of a stipulation – it says it can evolve into Stage 1 Pokémon. It's a bit technical and pedantic, but in a sense, there is somewhat of requirement for a two-way agreement, but Ditto is still actively overriding what the card it evolves into says.
I've written this post because it's one of the few rulings I've seen PCL issue over the last 15+ years that I think is incorrect. If I could ask PCL a clarifying question, it would be this;
Why do these cards even have the "Evolves into" box on them anyways?
Buried Fossil cannot be a precedent for the Antique cards because the Antique cards omitted an analog to that card's "You may play a Pokémon card that evolves from Mysterious Fossil on top of Buried Fossil" on them, and without that qualifier, then the "Evolves into" of Baby Pokémon comes into play as a relevant analog, and ruling that the Antiques can't override the evolution stipulations of previous Kabuto/Omanyte/Aerodactyl actively contradicts the precedent set by baby Pokémon.
This ruling basically suggests there was no need for the "Evolves into" box to be put on these cards anyways (consider: we do not put a box that says "Evolves into Raichu" on every Pikachu card), and if the ruling stands I would encourage PCL/TPCI to not include these boxes on any future cards such as the Antiques because it is a confusing bit of text that makes it a less enjoyable experience for both players and collectors.
* Note 1: English language source for Buried Fossil evolution into Aerodactyl ex; [link].
** Note 2: On the other hand, An Aerodactyl card which says it evolves from Old Amber cannot evolve from Buried Fossil – Japanese language source; [link]. If the Antique cards had more directly emulated Buried Fossil and included text along the lines of, e.g. "You may play a Pokémon card that evolves from Antique Old Amber on top of Antique Old Amber." I would not have seen fit to suggest that PCL's current ruling on this matter is incorrect. (For lack of that text being present, Baby Pokémon and a card like Ditto Prism Star end up more relevant precedents.)
This is a two part question;
1. Can Antique Old Amber evolve into TEU Aerodactyl (and can Antique Helix Fossil evolve into TEU Omanyte, and Antique Dome Fossil evolve into TEU Kabuto)?
2. If the answer is no, can R&D please explain why the Antique cards even have the "Evolves into" text on them at all, since the precedent set by past cards with "Evolves into" text would otherwise mean these cards should be able to evolve into any card with the name indicated?
The reason I ask for this to be answered in two parts is because I am actually already aware of the answer, because it has been posted to pokemon-card.com's Q&A; the answer is apparently no [link; as of Oct 15 2023 it is still the first Q&A in the results].
I think part 2 is an important follow up because I think no is the wrong answerl I believe this to be t the first time in over 20 years I've seen a ruling from the Japanese PCG team (aka PCL, aka "R&D") that doesn't make sense, and in my view contradicts past PCG precedent. To explain how is rather long but those interested in game design and the principles of this card game may find it an interesting read;
Part 1
Can a card override the conditions for evolution that are stipulated on a Pokémon card?The answer is an obvious yes;
- General condition: Cards like Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and Lugia VSTAR create a condition that allows you to put Basic, Stage 1, and/or Stage 2 Pokémon onto your Bench (with some caveats on the types of the Pokémon).
- Specific condition: Fossil Pokémon are essentially the first instance of this concept of 'overriding evolution rules', with cards like the following;
[1] Neo Discovery Omanyte [see Pokémon Power, Revive Fossil];
[2] EX Legend Maker Strange Cave:
These are rather dated examples, and more abound throughout the years, but the answer is yes, and as a consequence of the answer being yes, we've seen examples in more recent years where the English TCG has had to more carefully delineate the idea of an "Evolution Pokémon" from an "evolved Pokémon" (vs the past, where "Evolved Pokémon" was a formal term, as on EX Unseen Forced Hitmonchan).
Part 2
The above examples answer a generalized version of the question, but it is overgeneralized and is just brought up to 'set the stage'. I'd like to give more specific examples that I think are more immediately relevant. (For part 2, I am deliberately choosing to ignore any Pokémon card printed prior to the e-Card era.)Example 1: Expedition Pichu (and/or any Baby Pokémon card of the e-Card era)
Pichu says a Basic Pokémon can be played onto it as an evolved Pokémon, and communicates this with a special box; Antique Helix Fossil's evolution box appears deliberately reminiscent of this box. It does not do anything to resolve the fact there is no Pikachu card that says it can be played as an evolution of Pichu. Pichu is essentially "overriding" the conditions by which Pikachu can be played by adding a new option by which it can be put into play.
Example 2: Skyridge Buried Fossil
Unlike Pichu (and other Baby Pokémon of the e-Card era), Buried Fossil actively acknowledges a contradiction between what it says it can do and what the cards it is allowing to be put into play do – i.e., it specifically says if the card says if it evolves from Mysterious Fossil, then you can evolve this card into that Pokémon. This created a somewhat unique condition later on where even though the card specifies it can evolve into Omanyte, Kabuto, and Aerodactyl, a ruling was issued that the ADV-era Aerodactyl ex, despite not being listed by name on Buried Fossil, could evolve from Buried Fossil because it still did say it 'evolved from Mysterious Fossil' * **.
Example 3: EX Sandstorm Pichu (and/or any other Pokémon card with the Poké-Power Baby Evolution)
This is essentially working identically to Example 1, but the special rulebox is no longer in place, and it involves a now Basic Pokémon being able to evolve from another Basic Pokémon, rather than from a Baby Pokémon.
Example 4: Helix Fossil Omanyte (and/or Dome Fossil Kabuto, et al.)
This is a fringe case but I wanted to bring it up here anyways. Even though this card is clearly meaning to bring the FCO Omanyte into play – i.e. the Restored Omanyte, which says "Put this card onto your bench only with the effect of Helix Fossil Omanyte." However, as a result of how it's phrased, it could put into play any card with Omanyte in its name. In fact, I suspect it could even bring 151's Omanyte into play, because the way it is phrased allows it to completely ignore the stipulations for evolution stated on the card. This is closer to the cases we went through in Part 1, but I wanted to mention it here anyway.
Example 5: Ditto Prism Star
This is the most recent example, and should play some level of influence in the decision here. This card is allowed to evolve into any Stage 1 Pokémon card, regardless of what that card says it evolves from, and they are being played as an Evolution Pokémon and treated as an evolved Pokémon.
Of these five examples, we can look at their relevance to the 151 Fossil card situation by considering the evolution / play condition as a two-way "handshake agreement" of sorts. Does the card putting another card into play "agree" with what the latter card says?
Example 1: No. Pichu does not care what is printed on Pikachu. The "Evolves into" box on Pichu is 'overriding' what a Pikachu card might say. (In theory, I propose that if there were an error Pikachu printed that said it was a Stage 1 Pokémon that evolved from Growlithe, Pichu could still evolve into it.) For example 1, there is not a requirement for a two-way agreement.
Example 2: Somewhat; even though Buried Fossil has the same "Evolves into" box as Pichu, it has more stipulations than what Pichu did; it can only evolve into cards that say they evolve from Mysterious Fossil. For a non-theoretical example, Buried Fossil cannot evolve into MD Kabuto, because even though it is named Kabuto, it says it evolves from Dome Fossil. It's a nonstarter. For example 2, there is a requirement for a two-way agreement.
Example 3: Again, this is similar to Example 1, but we've lost the "Evolves into" box. Still, Pichu is setting the terms for what it can evolve into based on the text of the card, regardless of what it says on Pikachu. For example 3, there is not a requirement for two-way agreement.
Example 4: Fringe case, but that doesn't make it irrlevant – again, no requirement for two-way agreement. Being able to put a Stage 1 Omanyte into play maybe wasn't the intended design purpose of Helix Fossil Omanyte, but it does work to do that.
Example 5: In a way, Ditto Prism Star is nearly a hybrid of other examples. It does not have an "Evolves into" box, and is actively overriding what it says on the cards it is allowing itself to evolve into, but it does have somewhat of a stipulation – it says it can evolve into Stage 1 Pokémon. It's a bit technical and pedantic, but in a sense, there is somewhat of requirement for a two-way agreement, but Ditto is still actively overriding what the card it evolves into says.
Part 3
The reality is, even after writing all this, I believe I am already aware of the way this is going to turn out – pokemon-card.com has already issued a Q&A that says Antique Helix Fossil cannot evolve into previous Omanyte cards, Antique Dome Fossil cannot evolve into previous Kabuto cards, and Antique Old Amber cannot evolve into previous Aerodactyl cards [link] – reading between the lines of the history of rulings on this site, it seems like TPCI and/or Pokegym (I am not aware of the distiction between the two in jurisdiction) has some leeway on rulings for the English unlimited format, but has to confer with PCL for rulings for Expanded and/or Current formats, so is probably going to give a simple answer that reflects the answer PCL has already given, without much elaboration.I've written this post because it's one of the few rulings I've seen PCL issue over the last 15+ years that I think is incorrect. If I could ask PCL a clarifying question, it would be this;
Why do these cards even have the "Evolves into" box on them anyways?
Buried Fossil cannot be a precedent for the Antique cards because the Antique cards omitted an analog to that card's "You may play a Pokémon card that evolves from Mysterious Fossil on top of Buried Fossil" on them, and without that qualifier, then the "Evolves into" of Baby Pokémon comes into play as a relevant analog, and ruling that the Antiques can't override the evolution stipulations of previous Kabuto/Omanyte/Aerodactyl actively contradicts the precedent set by baby Pokémon.
This ruling basically suggests there was no need for the "Evolves into" box to be put on these cards anyways (consider: we do not put a box that says "Evolves into Raichu" on every Pikachu card), and if the ruling stands I would encourage PCL/TPCI to not include these boxes on any future cards such as the Antiques because it is a confusing bit of text that makes it a less enjoyable experience for both players and collectors.
* Note 1: English language source for Buried Fossil evolution into Aerodactyl ex; [link].
** Note 2: On the other hand, An Aerodactyl card which says it evolves from Old Amber cannot evolve from Buried Fossil – Japanese language source; [link]. If the Antique cards had more directly emulated Buried Fossil and included text along the lines of, e.g. "You may play a Pokémon card that evolves from Antique Old Amber on top of Antique Old Amber." I would not have seen fit to suggest that PCL's current ruling on this matter is incorrect. (For lack of that text being present, Baby Pokémon and a card like Ditto Prism Star end up more relevant precedents.)