Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

2009 State of the Game Observations

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It's funny how when some nobody makes a thread on this, everybody says "YOU ARE GREEDY WE HATE YOU DIE DIE DIE"\!!!"

...but when Chris Fulop makes a thread on it, everyone says "Great idea! I agree 100%!"

The difference is in tone.

Most people who post their thoughts on the prize structure do so in a very hotheaded sort of way.

This poster had well reasoned arguments, thought them through, and remained very level-headed throughout.

Though I don't necessarily agree with his sentiments (the pie is getting bigger worldwide, it's just the US proportion relative to the rest of the world has shrunk), I'll defend his right to say them in the manner that he stated them.
 
Hey Chris....

We talked a little about this at nationals....

Here is a different view.....

I do believe that PUI hopes (whether publicly or not) that 15+ players with many years of "tournament time" actually take the next step and start running events. Realistically that is where you are going to be rewarded.

With all the knowledge we have about the game, "WE" are now the types of quality help the game needs to continue growing. If you look at the prizing as compensation for a days work, then judging/To is really the next step for you.

If I recall correctly you did say that this was the year that you were going to jump in and run events.

I am done playing the game. It is nothing more than casual for me anymore. The power and speed of the cards has finally passed my playstyle by. I am not going to step away from the game. I am now jumping on the opportunities PUI has given my to prove myself in a different arena. I like to think I am the best at what I am currently doing, even though I know I still have TONS to learn from the real players of my NEW game.

Things arent going to change Chris. You know that. If its entertainment you are in the game for, then simply playing should be more than enough. If its more compensation you seek for spending your day at an event, step up to the next level. Its actually a little more challenging than people give it credit for.

Jimmy
 
First and foremost, lets address GodTrainer, and his stupid owl thing which doesn't actually make all too much sense.

I have judged. I have not judged as much as a good number of people, but I can guarantee you, 100%, that compared to playing your heart out at Worlds, or at Nationals, judging is not even close to as draining. I am not retracting that statement. I do not mean it to say that "judging is easy" because it isn't. It can take a pretty heavy toll on you, especially on a "bad day" full of difficult rulings and controversy. Otherwise the core of the issue is running around all day making sure everything stays in order. It is a tough job, but it isn't even close to as mentally exhausting as playing can be. You go and play in the 18 hour Team Multiple Player Championship from 2003, see how your head is doing by the end of it. I am not saying that judges do not do a great thing for this game. What I am saying is that when you hold a TOURNAMENT ( not a league, not a get-together-with-friends, but a sanctioned tournament ) that the BEST PLAYER that day should certainly win more than the staff gets for running it. In Ohio, do you know what happened at Battle Roads? We had 10+ people fighting for judge spots. Simply because it was stupid to play when you could judge, not have to think as hard, and make more packs! I'm not saying that half a box is inappropriate for judges. I think your being ignorant if you took that as the core point behind what I was saying. I was using it as a reference point to showcase how PITIFUL the prize support for the PLAYERS is. Also, I will be PMing you shortly, I have roughly 30 Victory Medals to sell you. Thanks for covering my trip to Nationals this year bud :)

As for the redistribution globally, how can Nintendo even think that makes sense? Lets give Organized Play the same amount of money, but lets vastly increase the number of regions and players they have to support. I was fed the argument that it is difficult to show a strong correlation between organized play and profits, but it shouldn't be so hard to prove that its physically impossible to maintain legitimate support when your having to expand your efforts into so many different territories with rapidly increasing player bases.

Due to the cost issue of flying people, and rooming them, may I ask why the decision is to always post Worlds in Hawaii, or Orlando, or *insert the hottest, most expensive tourist traps in the US here* I LOVE getting a nice vacation to a great city or state, but if resources are being spread so thinly, don't you think it is a better idea to go a bit more managable? Also, why are we consistently holding Worlds in the U.S? Wouldn't it be more cost efficent to hold it in Europe? They only have to deal with 8 trips from the U.S. so why are they crippling their budget with poor location choices? Especially since the European player base is growing quite well right now. I imagine Worlds held there would do a great job of jumpstarting that further.

Also, let me make a nice clear cut clarification regarding a misconception I'm seeing thrown around here a lot. What we are seeing is NOT a "redistribution" of prizes. Sure, if a player can play in the entire sample size of tournaments being offered, hey, look, a redistribution. The amount of prizes available potentially to any one player in this game has seen a dramatic drop off. "redistribution" is the kind way of saying " you can't win nearly as much anymore". Perhaps from the budget's standpoint, maybe redistribution is an appropriate term, but under absolutely no circumstance is it appropriate to claim that players are receiving anything less than a CUT.

Also, Scorpio, I am really, really confused by something. You claim, and I'll quote " Also, when has there been a CUT in prizes? Just a redistribution...." only to IMMEDIATELY respond to DarthPika with "You don't seem to read. Its definitely increased. Just not in the USA". Within the span of a quote, you managed to make two distinctly different arguments.

I want to address something as well, in regards to a mindset I've seen run rather rampant amongst a good number of posters. People seem to think that when a player wants an opportunity to make money at playing cards they have some unfair sense of entitlement. I love this game. I find it extremely fun. I work very hard to be as good at it as I am. I find playing Magic fun. I find playing Pokemon more fun than I find playing Magic. But I don't find it so much more fun that I'll pass up the opportunity to win thousands more dollars for that slight increment of increased fun. I'm not the only person with this type of mindset. All things equal, I'd pick Pokemon over any other game on the market...the problem is, everything is far from equal. It is hard to convince myself to choose to give myself less of an opportunity to profit.

As for the statistic of Pokemon outselling the other TCGs: I had seem a number of articles regarding TCG sales over the last year or so. I know that some of the data was posted here on the Pokegym as well. So yes, that is roughly a fact. I say roughly because I know I am pretty close in the ballpark, and that those numbers hold true for a good number of sales quarters, but I don't remember off the top of my head the specifics. I can try and find them though.
 
Great post Chris. We really could use more members like you.

For the record, I'm also sick to death of being treated like some horrible creep because I want better prizes for this game. Is that really wrong? And, no, I wouldn't keep wanting more and more and more. I JUST want the prizes to be a little more in proportion to the player population, and how well the game is doing. If nothing else, you guys could at the very least add a few extra invites for worlds. :/
 
dont bring the judges comp into this hoenstly they ( we i am one of them) work a full day on average, yes work, for you to have a smooth event and most times its at a rate under the average national minimum wage, and what do we get otherwise? a achance to get a invite to worlds.... no not enough played in events.... cool victory medals that sell for good cash.... no nope gadda win for those... o yeah bashed on boards like this that we are incompitent and blah blah blah. so really dont bring up judge comp
 
i love it when late night typing becomes how i judge, when you come upto NE and get a nice GL your way due to your lack of knowledge of the game ill feel sorry for you, i have plenty of people who will back my judging skills ask gino i know him personally, second comparing some one who works as to some one who plays..... sigh i bet you feel baseball players make a fair amount of money, there is no argueing with you and your ilk
 
Ok, Magnus or whatever, if you want to continue conversation, ship me a PM and I'll continue with your poor judgment there, I'm not going to deal with you in the thread anymore. If it makes you feel any better too, I know Gino as well? Because that matters.
 
There is no love lost between Chris and me yet a few times this year we have found ourselves on the same side of an issue. I have been one of the "premier" judges in this game I have also been a player they are 2 completely different things and while I would call neither easy Chris's point is that 1st place of any event should walk away with at least if not more than the person judging. I find myself forced to agree I'm not discounting standing on your/my feet for hours listening to people complain and squawk but the person that sat at those tables and grinded out a perfect to near perfect record worked just as hard if not harder (deck prep ect.) and should be compensated for it even if that means we have to pay for events.

BLiZz
 
dont bring the judges comp into this hoenstly they ( we i am one of them) work a full day on average, yes work, for you to have a smooth event and most times its at a rate under the average national minimum wage, and what do we get otherwise? a achance to get a invite to worlds.... no not enough played in events.... cool victory medals that sell for good cash.... no nope gadda win for those... o yeah bashed on boards like this that we are incompitent and blah blah blah. so really dont bring up judge comp

So to paraphrase "Oh, no you did'n't"

Judging is a great way to give back to the game, and with enough professor points, you can participate in the Professor cup. (Which I honestly feel is the most laid-back, awesome format ever!) I would happily judge events, even without compensation. Just being around the game/great players is exciting, and you can see many epic games spectators don't. Of course it's nice to get something for your time, but I can't see the upside to tempting 18+ players with: "Judge a BR and get 3x the packs than if you win, guaranteed!"


SuperWooper brings up valid points. However, with more resources dedicated to the game, wouldn't it grow at an even faster rate???
 
As Chris says, I appreciate the work all the work judges do for the game. They do a great job and it runs smooth. But some people comparing it to wages forget one thing, judges volunteer. They want to do it for the SoTG, and as Sandslash says I bet some of them would be willing to do it for less to no compensation, they do it to be around the game, which is a great testament to the game. But again, they definitely all deserve A TON of compensation.

After playing LoTR, I did learn that you can attempt to have too much prize support. They ran themselves into the ground trying to skyrocket the prizes while attendances went up. I do agree that prize support could be changed, but I'm not really going to go on about the prize support, because it's the end of my first season.

After my first season I have to say I agree with what Chris says. Darthpika also has numerous valid points, but I watch people push those aside because of his tone. That being said now that someone's said it as well as Chris I think this could bring up a bunch of great thoughts and ideas.
 
Also, Scorpio, I am really, really confused by something. You claim, and I'll quote " Also, when has there been a CUT in prizes? Just a redistribution...." only to IMMEDIATELY respond to DarthPika with "You don't seem to read. Its definitely increased. Just not in the USA". Within the span of a quote, you managed to make two distinctly different arguments.

The Cut In Prizes thing was in regards to the Battle Roads, which went from 8-4-0-0-0etc towards 4-4-2-2-0-0etc. Therefore it was a different argument from the one I used against Darth Pika.

Also just a nitpick, how can you bash on one's grammar when you fail to spell my nickname (Which really isn't that hard) correctly? That's just me nitpicking ofcourse.
 
Yay! I love it when a lot of people discount the value of judges in these events.

Hmmm...wonder why certain areas of the country have judge issues? Because people believe that anyone can step up and do this. Let's face it people, we really don't want the "anyones" stepping up and doing this. You need to have good, or great judges at event, and sorry people, good help costs, and is worth the price.

Judges have to be there before the opening bell. They have to help with set-up, player training, and all aspects of the event, along with the breakdown of the event. A judge has to be there for every moment that the top players have to be at the event.

There is a difference. If a player does not like the way something is going, they can scoop, drop, or concede and TAKE A BREAK. If a judge has issues, they are there for the duration. If a player gets a donk, win or lose, the player gets a 30+ minute break. If a judge has all the tables end early, what do we do? We start the next round early.

The attitude towards judges surprises me from some of you, but from others, I consider it par for the course. I have the word "unappreciative" bouncing through my head right now.

Vince
 
As one who has done both I say that playing is both more fun and far more stressful than judging. I don’t think that it’s really fair to look at one without the other. While packs, promo cards, etc. are compensation for the players … so is playing itself. Judges on the other hand don’t have as much stress (well most of the time) but they don’t get the intrinsic reward of playing either. They are sacrificing to make that fun possible for others. I think that this is especially true of people who do both. In the absence of any material reward would you rather help organize or play in an event? Most people would pick playing since it’s simply more fun. I think that this clearly factors into the reward structure for judging.

However I also have to say that I’ve actually felt guilty judging more than once. When I get compensated for judging I’m well aware that in some cases I’m getting more that the players who worked hard to win the event. Somehow I feel like I didn’t really “earn” it since I’m aware of how much more stressful and mentally exhausting playing can be. I also know that it takes hours of preparation in deck testing and quite a bit of effort and money to buy / trade for / or do whatever else it takes to get the cards needed to win.

The rewards my family and I have gotten from judging, playing, winning door prizes have made a very real impact on our playing the game. We can build more decks and play more of the things we want since we have a larger pool of cards than we otherwise might have. I’ve said before that I would play and even judge without our current reward structure ... but I also have to admit that I’ve benefited from what’s in place. Among many other factors material rewards have motivated me to both win and do more for the game. I would have to be some sort of saint for it to be any other way ... and I realize that in this sense the current rewards work, at least on me.

I don’t take it for granted that the rewards are the best they can be however. I think that Runner’s post is spot on and well worded. If I were to summarize his points and mine these would be the issue I currently see:

  • OP Rewards have decreased over time while the number of players and product sold has increased.
  • OP Rewards in Pokemon do not always compare favorably to those of other games.
  • Aside from cards, the TYPE of OP rewards seem to be aimed mostly at the younger age groups and the youngest masters (scholarships, electronic games, etc.)
  • OP Rewards are not consistent globally.
  • There might be an overemphasis on rewarding judges with the same stuff that players need, cards.

If I could change the reward system I would focus on the following things:

  • Increasing the OP budget, with the aim of increasing PUI sales by bringing more players into the game.
  • Change the rewards so that cards are not the primary compensation for judging. They could perhaps be one option among several.
  • Even up rewards between judges and event winners.
  • Instead of Scholarships give players a choice between a scholarship and a lesser amount of cash. For instance I could see nationals having a choice of either $7500 scholarship or $2500 cash. Cash incentives are more likely to drive older players.
  • Establish and COMMUNICATE TO THE COMMUNITY the standards by which OP rewards are handled globally. Countries with similar OP play structures should have similar rewards.

Even with no change in budget I’m sure that SOME of these are doable. Clear communication for instance costs little and even if some folks get mad in the short run, in the long run transparency usually makes for a happier community.

Realistically I realize that the most cost effective reward that OP can give out is cards, both promo cards and packs. They almost certainly get these things at cost from PUI. Scholarships can also be cost effective in that OP doesn’t actually have to pay for them until they are used so they get to earn any interest on the money until it’s actually gone. Promotional electronics are also probably relatively cheap for OP since they likely come at a discount from Nintendo. What I suspect is that OP is stretching their budget as far as they can by using these types of rewards.
 
in accordance to the topic--->we,that is the players and the judges should have an online petition and send it to PUI/POP.perhaps that would make a difference lol.but i do not think that the prize structure will change as i see no change in the game.
 
Guys,i have never played OP,let alone pokemon,but i have closely followed the news about Pokemon and OP and rewards and everything else pokemon....Well,yes,the scholarships and gaming systems are aimed at the younger generation,and as vanderbilt_grad suggested it could be optional.
And to people who accuse judges of getting equal rewards as the players,then just imagine yourself judging your most favorite game ever,without being able to play(its happened to me loads of times on chess),it really hurts,and that's another reason why judges need to be compensated.And since most of the judges are working,it seems reasonable to pay them back.
Players spend lots of money on the cards,i definitely agree.100's of dollars on 10 cards etc.But the prizes given are 2 booster boxes(if im not mistaken)and a year's supply of cards(again i might be mistaken).So that virtually gives you 7500$ scholarship and another 4-6 Lv.X's and around 500$ worth of cards.So i believe that expanding the game to other regions should be PUI's main intention and once most of the regions are covered,they can concentrate on increasing prizes.But that's just me.
Thank you for reading this.
 
Judge support does not come from PCI for the most part guys...for events like states and regionals. judge support is part of the PTO's expense. So if an event requires 10 staffers to make it run smoothly for you the players, we PTO's have to include that into our budget...and what I pay my judges is really none of the players business.


And we do not just pick anyone to be our judges. Judges in my area are given these jobs not just because they take the time to help me out on the day of the tournament, but they have also spend hours running leagues for free, helping teach new kids to play, and have generally been the glue that holds things together in the area when big events are not happening. You really do have to earn the job to work for me
 
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I've also for quite some time wondered why the JUDGE gets more than the 1st place winner on average... :/

Isn't that just a little messed up?

......
ummm, no, not really. Does your judges for Nats get a trip and invite to worlds? Wii? DSi? Scholarship? Hmm, didn't think so. Those are the grassroots growers of the game. Judge support for North America is fine where it is. If anything, they could use more support overseas. The judge support is entirely up to the organizer at this point. I tend to give as much as I possibly can because I know of the work that's involved, but others don't give as much - possibly since they have larger events and more professors to compensate. However no matter how much is allotted, the support is fine just the way it is.
 
Prof Clay & P_A ... I totally understand where you guys are coming from. What follows is what I feel to be the crux of the issue:

In Ohio, do you know what happened at Battle Roads? We had 10+ people fighting for judge spots. Simply because it was stupid to play when you could judge, not have to think as hard, and make more packs!

Add to this silly stuff like the one a while back where some underage person wanted to take the professor test for his parents so they could judge and get stuff for him. I think that it's not so much that judges are given an inappropriate level of reward for their efforts it's just that the FORM of that reward is what players most want ... and judges are getting more of it. As long as that's the case I think that you will hear complaints, even if they are frequently way off base.
 
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