prodigal_fanboy
New Member
Did you not read the part where he said he has judged events?
2009 State of the Game Observations
- Thread starter Ruiner
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Did you not read the part where he said he has judged events?
Scipio
New Member
Oh, must've skipped that. The point still stands though, you play for FUN, you judge to cater people to have fun. Its like working at an amusement park - sure its fun but its still work.
If you play to win stuff and consider it "not worth it" to play because the prizes are not of your liking, then I'm thinking there's something wrong with your view of the game.
If you play to win stuff and consider it "not worth it" to play because the prizes are not of your liking, then I'm thinking there's something wrong with your view of the game.
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
To play Devil's Advocate: People could play to win. From what I understand, if an individual were to win 4 BRs, they could expect to gain about 25-30 points (people with more experience please correct me), which would serve as a leg up in the points race for an unpaid invite. However, this year, with Worlds being in Kona, an unpaid invite might not be used simply because of how bloody expensive it would be to travel to Hawaii. Therefore, points have less of an intrinsic value, so the player turns to product compensation to make up the difference in returns on his investment of time playtesting, driving, and playing. If you remove these ulterior benefits that supplemented the points, then you risk not having the full potential of competition showing up for events, which, to borrow a gaffe from our President, would make the BRs "like Special Olympics, or something."
Not saying this is the only correct approach to playing, but a valid one nonetheless; after all, if people choose careers with profit motive, why is it so damnable for them to choose hobbies with a profit motive? I think it is mighty haughty for you to decide what views of the game are morally proper or contemptible.
Judges do a ton for the game in the services they provide, however, by marginalizing the effect and effort the players expend growing the game you make the judges look poorly even if they themselves do not espouse that view by using it in their defense.
Pokemon could not exist without the judges.
Pokemon could not exist without the players.
If the bus gets mroe expensive both will have to walk
~~~
Just to prevent these "you dont pay anything and still complain bla bla" posts.
IMO we pay money for a bunch of colorful paper, PUI basically has a licence for printing money, these cards hold no real value. Tournaments are a way to pay back to the players, to give them back a part of what they payed. But with prices getting less&less the opayback shrinks and cards get more expensive. Without tournaments, without PRICES, there would be no point in buying cards, I could as well get a good printer and play with proxys.
Yeah I know there are kids who buy the cards non the less, but thats what a kids doing, it doesnt have to be reasonable.
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
Another thing about the judge support. I'm both a competitive player and a judge. At my first time as a professor, I only judged Prereleases and Battle Roads. That's actually an easy job most times. I never got much for it here, about 3-6 booster packs, but as long as I didn't pay too much to travel to the event, it's fine for me since it wasn't much of work at small events.
There are many players who also judge tournaments, but only a few who judge big events. I know it isn't that easy in the US where all of the States are at the same weekends. However, this is where the real work starts. You have to work for about 10-12 hours and stay until the finals are finished. Most of the time you have to do rulings or at least walk around and watch. Players can sit down during their games and talk to their friends between rounds, while judges have to collect the results and start the next rounds. If you are head judge, you also get a lot of responibility and some very difficult decisions. That's why judges as many boosters as the winner at CC and SC events.
The only problem is that judge support isn't determined by the player numbers. When someone gets one and a half booster box for 4-5 hours of work (our smallest State Championship here) while not doing his job very well, that's indeed not fair. But when a judge works 10+ hours at a big event, it's totally correct for him to get a booster box for compensation (but in reality, the judges at the biggest State Championship in Europe didn't get even the half of what the ones at small States got).
There are many players who also judge tournaments, but only a few who judge big events. I know it isn't that easy in the US where all of the States are at the same weekends. However, this is where the real work starts. You have to work for about 10-12 hours and stay until the finals are finished. Most of the time you have to do rulings or at least walk around and watch. Players can sit down during their games and talk to their friends between rounds, while judges have to collect the results and start the next rounds. If you are head judge, you also get a lot of responibility and some very difficult decisions. That's why judges as many boosters as the winner at CC and SC events.
The only problem is that judge support isn't determined by the player numbers. When someone gets one and a half booster box for 4-5 hours of work (our smallest State Championship here) while not doing his job very well, that's indeed not fair. But when a judge works 10+ hours at a big event, it's totally correct for him to get a booster box for compensation (but in reality, the judges at the biggest State Championship in Europe didn't get even the half of what the ones at small States got).
imho anyone who expects that they're going to get even close to the monetary amount they've spent in order to play this game back in prizes is delusional.
this is a hobby, something you (...supposedly) do for FUN; the non-tangible 'rewards'...friends, fun, lessons learned etc. should be what makes the game 'worth it' for a player and the prizes just the 'icing on the cake'.
do you really expect to make back what you've paid out on ANY hobby, sport, craft, art you pursue? the enjoyment you get just doing the activity isn't enough?
for example, you play baseball and have since you were old enough to play t-ball. are you really saying that unless you make it to the pros...or even the little league world series level...all those games and practices were for nothing? you got nothing intangible...which can't be given a monetary value...from the experience?
jmho,
'mom
this is a hobby, something you (...supposedly) do for FUN; the non-tangible 'rewards'...friends, fun, lessons learned etc. should be what makes the game 'worth it' for a player and the prizes just the 'icing on the cake'.
do you really expect to make back what you've paid out on ANY hobby, sport, craft, art you pursue? the enjoyment you get just doing the activity isn't enough?
for example, you play baseball and have since you were old enough to play t-ball. are you really saying that unless you make it to the pros...or even the little league world series level...all those games and practices were for nothing? you got nothing intangible...which can't be given a monetary value...from the experience?
jmho,
'mom
GrandmaJoner
Active Member
Maybe not expect, but you can certainly strive to make it back and in all cases it can be made into a reality.
and then it's no longer a hobby but a job/business...
'mom
'mom
You can play with proxies.
I dont expect to make it back or anything (ok I try but I'm not angry if I dont) but I try to get a part of it back, a part that makes the expences reasonable. Without that I couldnt afford playing this tcg, even if I wanted.
I dont expect to put that all back lol, no way. But if they earn money by selling us paper which costs them NOTHING in the end, they could at least be a bit more generous with prices. Would it hur tthem to throw an extra box in the price support of a br? Even a complete box? Probably not. And I still think prices should be determined by player number.
*sigh* "costs them nothing"? seriously?
what's built into the price of a booster, just off the top of my head: printing, packaging, distribution/transportation, profit to the distributor, profit to the retailer, whatever revenue goes to TPC in japan, advertising/marketing. that's not even getting into other 'overhead' type costs...
'mom
what's built into the price of a booster, just off the top of my head: printing, packaging, distribution/transportation, profit to the distributor, profit to the retailer, whatever revenue goes to TPC in japan, advertising/marketing. that's not even getting into other 'overhead' type costs...
'mom
I cant imagine that boosters are much mroe than a few cents/piece in production.
And I dont even expect them to give us money or anything, but something in there own currency.
No distributor, no retailor, just producing a bunch of boxes more then they'd usually do and give thenm out. I cant imagine that this would be too much to handle :/
Anyone can make an educated guess what a box costs in production? I mean I might be wrong here but I cant imagine that its noteworthy. And gving out a bit more of there own currency can hurt them too badly IMO
And I dont even expect them to give us money or anything, but something in there own currency.
No distributor, no retailor, just producing a bunch of boxes more then they'd usually do and give thenm out. I cant imagine that this would be too much to handle :/
Anyone can make an educated guess what a box costs in production? I mean I might be wrong here but I cant imagine that its noteworthy. And gving out a bit more of there own currency can hurt them too badly IMO
Varna
New Member
I agree with you (in that I think it's absurd), but it is simply how some people choose to spend their free time. Some people find it fun to try and profiteer in different kinds of ventures. I would never play a game just to try and make a profit, but some may see it as a stupid idea not to. It just comes down to opinion, I suppose.
If the cards are "free to produce", why not start making your own? You'll save 100% of your money because you won't have to spend it on crappy English boosters! :B I'm sorry man, but that logic train is more than off the tracks. You should know better than that.
That aside, I do agree that prizes should be based around attendance. However, I know that from an organizational standpoint, prizes that are flat across the board are easier to manage.
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
I think the real problem are the travel costs, not the cards. If all the tournaments I play were in my city, I'd get back much more than I paid.
Let's say you pay about $ 200 for boosters (~ 2 boxes), $ 80 for prereleases and $ 50 for additional single cards you can't trade for per year, that's $ 330 which is enough to play competitive and get almost every deck you want, as long as you are able to trade a lot.
The top finisher prizes at international Nationals alone are abou 10 times as high. If you not make it, prize boosters for Cities and States should sum up to that amount - assumed you keep doing well all over the season, of course. So the best players in their region get more back than they paid... from TPCi.
Seeing the total costs, it's a different thing. I pay a lot for train tickets, and if you go by car it's expensive as well. At all I pay more for my hobby than I get back, but I'm fine with this since it's my hobby. It's completely correct that prize support for Battle Roads dos not nearly cover the travel costs, even if you do well. But that's nothing TPCi has to change - why should they give back something the players paid to other companies? The one who rips us of is our train company -Deutsche Bahn - they have really horrible prizes, but it's the only way to travel if you don't have a car, which is expensive as well here. Compared to what they want for the tickets, I don't even care about the money I pay for my decks.
Players want something back if they do well - me to. There's nothing wrong about it. We complain to TPCi because they're the ones we've hope that they listen to us. Of course we had more reason to complain about our travel companies - but they won't listen to us at all. So even negative feedback can be seen as a compliment for Pokémon.
-edit-
But there's still one thing that really makes me angry. TPCi wastes budget to have Worlds in Hawaii. They could have Worlds for the double number of players and give some addtions to other tournaments with the same budget. I don't care about luxury hotels. I've more fun if many players I know are around, and I think a lot of people will think the same.
Let's say you pay about $ 200 for boosters (~ 2 boxes), $ 80 for prereleases and $ 50 for additional single cards you can't trade for per year, that's $ 330 which is enough to play competitive and get almost every deck you want, as long as you are able to trade a lot.
The top finisher prizes at international Nationals alone are abou 10 times as high. If you not make it, prize boosters for Cities and States should sum up to that amount - assumed you keep doing well all over the season, of course. So the best players in their region get more back than they paid... from TPCi.
Seeing the total costs, it's a different thing. I pay a lot for train tickets, and if you go by car it's expensive as well. At all I pay more for my hobby than I get back, but I'm fine with this since it's my hobby. It's completely correct that prize support for Battle Roads dos not nearly cover the travel costs, even if you do well. But that's nothing TPCi has to change - why should they give back something the players paid to other companies? The one who rips us of is our train company -Deutsche Bahn - they have really horrible prizes, but it's the only way to travel if you don't have a car, which is expensive as well here. Compared to what they want for the tickets, I don't even care about the money I pay for my decks.
Players want something back if they do well - me to. There's nothing wrong about it. We complain to TPCi because they're the ones we've hope that they listen to us. Of course we had more reason to complain about our travel companies - but they won't listen to us at all. So even negative feedback can be seen as a compliment for Pokémon.
-edit-
But there's still one thing that really makes me angry. TPCi wastes budget to have Worlds in Hawaii. They could have Worlds for the double number of players and give some addtions to other tournaments with the same budget. I don't care about luxury hotels. I've more fun if many players I know are around, and I think a lot of people will think the same.
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You haven't seen how people's eyes widen and light up when you tell them that the Pokemon World Championship is in Hawaii and that players can earn/win a trip to it.
It's well worth it for the "wow" factor.
That is your idea of Worlds, but TPCi has a different idea of Worlds.
Nationals is exactly what you are describing. There is no need for 2 Nationals.
Nationals fills the nitch for the big tournament where all your friends are at and can play in it. Worlds fills the nitch for the smaller invite-only tournament where only the best of the best are allowed in, to represent their country, and see who comes out on top.
Two different ideas, and both should stay true to their basic ideas. The second Worlds becomes open to the public and a few thousand americans show up, the basic idea behind Worlds will be gone.
But what do some people care, really, they just want every tournament to be like Nationals, and a billion dollars in prizes. Everything else doesn't matter. :nonono:
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
In Europe, the "wow" factor is the same for California or whatever.
Just not that expensive.
OK, again I have to say - this is completely different in Europe. I don't meet people from other countries at my Nationals. We don't have a tournament here that comes even close to the US Nationals - except for Worlds. That's why we want an European Championship, but the last thing I heard is that it will not take place this year because budget is out for Worlds in Hawaii. =(
Not open to the public. 128 players is fine, we had 20 rating invites from Europe and almost all of them were used in masters. And to be honest, 128 players is better competition than 64 players. Not only that the World has more than 64 world class players in each age group, but also that 128 is an almost perfect top cut on 32 (all 5-2 in) while 64 is a really terrible and tiebreaker dependant cut on 16.
and where are you getting this 'information'?
'mom
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