Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

2011 Houston Regionals TWO DAY thoughts

I go with two thumbs-up!!! :thumb::thumb: I have ran State Championships where we have gone well into the morning. Not only is it rough for players, but also on the staff!!! :frown: I support "Team Cook" for a two day event. :thumb::thumb:

I like the earlier Sunday start. I don't have the two hour drive, its five hours back to "Birch Manor".

Master Professor Birch
 
Man, I don't know why I didn't mention this no-brainer in detail sooner, but a problem that will be encountered for many is the added expense. Assuming a player makes top cut, and assuming a player doesn't have someone to crash with, that's an added $80 to the expense of a trip that could have cost as little as $10-$15 if you've got good gas mileage/are within 1.5 hours. Between 32 people in the Masters and 16 in the Juniors/Seniors, that's a lot of potential investments into Houston area hotel business that don't necessarily have to be made.

Granted, I'll be one of the first to admit that it was rough on everyone who was stuck at the racetrack at 2:00 AM last season, but the situation there was A ) a rarity due to circumstances you've already gone into detail about elsewhere, and B ) applicable to only a very small group of people, whereas nearly everyone else had left long ago/had otherwise trickled out as they were knocked out of cut. Considering how outlier-ish both of those are, it just doesn't seem cost-beneficial to engineer a schedule that requires thousands of dollars' worth of cost like this (late start time for Saturday or not).

As I said before, this is an event that I'm excited about going to regardless of the decision; however, there's a lot of value to just maximizing time efficiency for a one day event (strict cut-offs, start/end times, etc) as opposed to merely having "long sleeves" of wiggle room for two days.

My thoughts in this post and previous ones are summed up nicely by this post of Pokepop's in the adjoining thread. Although his voice is coming from that of staff, as a player it's also relevant:
If Regionals were to turn into a sort of mini Super Trainer Showdown, with lots of things happening at them, I'd love to run a two-day event.
If they remain just an extended tournament due to large attendance, I couldn't see it as much.
Lot's of extra cost, little extra return.
And I'm not just talking about money.
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Realistically, the "extended tournament due to large attendance" is all that I see Regionals becoming this year. So unless P!P is willing to go out on a limb for us to do this, and turn it into a super regional, then two days ultimately amounts to "lots of extra cost, little extra return" for those playing (tangibly and intangibly).
 
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Cyrus said:
however, there's a lot of value to just maximizing time efficiency for a one day event (strict cut-offs, start/end times, etc) as opposed to merely having "long sleeves" of wiggle room for two days.
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Last year I had all my times figured out but extended rounds and 2 small problems ate up a bunch of valuable time.

And for the record, Mia's on your side, lol.

Like someone that emailed me said, the players and staff need to man up. Regionals is a once a year thing and you know ahead of time that it's going to be a long day, prepare yourself and everything will be fine.
 
The primary (and leading) point of making Regional two days for an area like Southern Plains is to enhance the experience of the players and staff within the event itself. Extra-tournament concerns such as the drive there and back, hotel expenses etc. are relevant from a logistical standpoint, as these concerns always are at some level for any event, but they should have no bearing on the final decision on how long to make this event because they do not have anything to do with the genesis for event expansion, which is to make the event better for all.

It doesn't matter if some people are going to be paying a bit more money to get a hotel on Saturday when we are looking strictly at the quality of the tournament itself. A two-day division all but guarantees a smoother event with less stress for all parties, a healthier environment, more ideal circumstances for the players and staff, more legitimate games (no 3 am "I won because I made less sleep-deprived misplays and kept my eyes open for more of the match"), less worries about lags on either of the days (because there would be much more "wiggle room" if problems are encountered), and so forth.

Also, I think you would find, upon inquiry, that a lot of players already are staying the night on Saturday anyway (I always have, along with whomever I'm staying with). Houston is a good distance away from the majority of the locations that feed in to the event, including those in-state such as DFW (5-6 hours+). Are people from OK or LA or MS really going to be driving home immediately after they finish up on Saturday? I don't think so. I also think you will find that players staying together in hotels in general is very common and thus these issues of having to possibly put up another night's hotel money are largely self-mitigating-- either players are already doing it or they have the network to fall back on which will render the extra cost minimal. Again, though, even if there is an extra cost, it's for a good reason. Good things like a better overall event don't often come free.

Something else to consider: Pokemon is not meant to be a test of superhuman endurance. It is not healthy to get up at 6 or 7 a.m., spend all day in action and under stress, and then go to bed some time in the a.m. the next day, much less attempt a drive back in lieu of sleep. Aside from the health issues, it is needlessly wearing on the players and staff, leading to less than ideal performances all around. National and World are multiple-day events for good reasons and it makes no sense for Regional not to be expanded as well-- with the sole criterion being that the attendance remain as high as it has been here for the past few years (thus necessitating a longer event no matter how many days you make it). I think the player base, as well as P!P, needs to re-evaluate exactly how important a Regional is (or should be) and act accordingly. There needs to be a paradigm shift and those rarely come easy. However, easiness isn't part of the criteria for what's right or best.

On another note, having National-esque side events really is a great idea that should appeal to a lot of players.
 
Cyrus said:
Yeah, my main concern is just that the second day would become less meaningful for any non-top cut stuck there at the venue. Part of the reason why Nationals is a great event even when top 16 is going on is because there's still so much to do, play, and see. If top cut will be done on Sunday, then that's 32 people in Masters who are still there playing, but most of those 32 people have relatives and fellow travelers who have nothing to do other than just watch. If top cut is done on Sunday, then that's ~16 people in each of the other age groups who are playing, but several parents and chaperons at a loss. Some sort of side event, however, would do a lot of good, and may even encourage people who'd leave earlier to actually stay in town!

I've never missed cut at this event, but I've also been knocked out of it pretty early (like, first round early), so I have a pretty clear idea of what one or two day events would entail. From the perspective of the cut player and his/her immediate travelers, it would be a much bigger waste to stay for a whole extra day just to lose, rather than leave at 8, 9, or 10 PM. Removing this potential feeling of "waste" is the biggest hurdle to justifying the two (or three) day event: if you can get past that, then I think even stubborn guys like me would agree with it.

P.S. P!P should start printing Regionals and Nationals top cut promos. Totally off-topic but I figured it'd be fun. :biggrin:
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I agree with a lot of this. But, in all fairness, only 1 player wins. So, having 3 divisions, that means only 3 players will walk away not feeling like the day was wasted. If you lose in the first round of top cut, that just means you go home early, nothing to complain about. If you lose in say top 4, that means you stayed all day and are still exhausted and didn't win. Because you don't have to travel Cyrus, I think you are missing the point: assuming you top cut and stay a while before getting knocked out, then you still have to get a room that night. There is no way I'm making a 10+ hour drive starting at 2 am after the tournament but I may start a 10 drive at 6 PM, at least I have that option on a 2 day event.

And, while I think side events would be TOTALLY awesome and I would be all for them, I can say it would just cause more logistics problems. Lets say my 9 year old top cuts and I decide to go play a side event. He gets knocked out in the first round and I'm 3-0 in a side event, what do I do? Stay and make my son do nothing all day? Or do I just drop and leave like I would have done in the event that there is not a side event? Now, from my perspective, I would just call it a 4 day event. That means I take off 6 day or so (2 on the weekend, so its not that bad) and head to Houston. Lets say it starts on a Saturday (I assume it does). I leave Friday and get there late that evening. I get up early, go to the tournament. I assume that I will top cut, as will my son. We go play all day. At the end of the event, I assess our situation. I top cut and you didn't? Cool, here's $25, go play in the side event tomorrow, we go back to our hotel tonight. Get up on Sunday, go play top cut, wait for my son to finish (or vice-versa, I go play in a side event and make plans for my son after he is KO'ed at top cut. If neither of us cut, I've already assumed I'm going to be there, we both go play side events. If there are no side events, we stay Saturday night and leave Sunday morning. Worst case scenario, I know whether or not there will be side events before hand, I can plan to stay for Sunday or not. It is no different than Nats. When you go to Nats, what are your plans then? Plan to go 1 day and IF you top cut, oops? No, you plan 2 days. Also, Houston isn't a small city. I'm sure if the Regionals TO's don't want to deal with a side event, there is other Pokemon organizers in the area that will be willing host side events if anyone wanted. So, I don't care about side events one way or the other as I (and anyone else that travels) will plan accordingly, but I think they would be cool and agree with Cyrus that they would make the event better.

Also, keep in mind, all major areas in Tx (except San Antonio and Austin metro area) are 5+ hours away, and that's not including out of state:

DFW: 5ish+
Abilene: 6-7+
Midland/Odessa:9+
Lubbock: 10+
San Angelo: 7+
El Paso:13ish (and that's only due to an 80 mph speed limit on I-10)

So, most will come in the night before and leave the day after either way.
 
I don't think I'm really missing the point, Chat: even though I'm far more fortunate than most people distance-wise, it's still a good 1.5-2 hours from school. However, I've also made the Dallas-to-Houston trip (4-4.5 hours), so I don't take the out-of-towner experience for granted by any stretch of the imagination.

Out of curiosity, how long did the younger age groups go until last year? We finished pretty late, but if I recall, Seniors and Juniors cleared up fairly quickly.
 
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i would like 2 daysit gives me more sleep and less halutionations
so yes i can have my 2 day hotel did i spell it right^^^
 
Making it a two day tournament would remove the large event endurance element we all love and hate.

Players that don't make cut and aren't bound to others that do probably won't hang around for day 2 though, so second day side event attendance might be somewhat skrimp.

I'll attend whether it's a one or two day event, but prefer the conventional single day marathon.
 
Why not do flights reducing the number of rounds to 6 with flights of up to 64 players?

Sorry was playing with the idea for our regionals so thought I would get an opinion on it from a captive audience :
 
farbsman said:
Why not do flights reducing the number of rounds to 6 with flights of up to 64 players?

Sorry was playing with the idea for our regionals so thought I would get an opinion on it from a captive audience :
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The players don't want reduced rounds. They want as many rounds as possible and I'm happy to provide it to them.
 
I think a 2 day event would be awesome. We travel 14 hours (from ABQ) and plan for a long weekend anyway. We have two choices for regionals Houston or Utah both of which are a long drive. Regionals is a mini vacation for us. It would be nice to not make such an expensive trip for a one day event.

I also think having other organizers help with side events is a great bonus.
 
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Honestly, guys, I love staying up until 2-3 in the morning playing Pokemon Cards.

But I probably won't make it, regardless:(
 
Cyrus said:
I don't think I'm really missing the point, Chat: even though I'm far more fortunate than most people distance-wise, it's still a good 1.5-2 hours from school. However, I've also made the Dallas-to-Houston trip (4-4.5 hours), so I don't take the out-of-towner experience for granted by any stretch of the imagination.
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I didn't mean it like that man.

And, as far as you being 2 hours away, that's worse than us that have to travel a long ways...that 2 hour drive sucks and justifying a hotel when you live that close is hard.
 
Haha yeah - it's JUST above the pain threshold, so it really does make things a bit of a challenge. All worth it for the love of the game, tho. :thumb:

To clarify things a bit, I'd like to point to an excellent post made by SLOW DECK in the corresponding thread:
My foresite says that attendence will ultimately suffer if events are planned for two days.

Yes, us here on the Pokegym, you are going to get different opinions, because we are all gong-ho for pokemon. High segment of the families here top cut and the like. We can't get enough of pokemon.

But I think this won't work if the event is only a REGIONAL that is two days, and 2nd day is just "top cut", IF YOU MAKE IT. Ultimately, when majority of the folks are out of the top cut by 6PM, they are wondering why they are sticking around for another day, when they could have easily driven home. The experience, and the feeling of holding your entire weekend hostage won't be too exciting for the adults who are responsible for the transport, personal family trip planning, and expense of the pokemon.

IF the event becomes a mini Nationals, with side events and other events on 2nd day so that the majority of the people ARE NOT DISAPPOINTED, maybe, but then who is going to staff this, how will that staff be compensated, who pays these and facilities costs? Again, only if the 2nd day is a complete waste of time, and quality and properly STAFFED non top cut event could a 2nd regionals day work for the entire audience.

One solution to nightmare long days are to have stated limits to rounds and cuts regardless of the attendence. Does anyone really cares if there are three 7-0's in top cut? I am a math and statistics guys, some numbers matter, and some don't. This binomial rule for rounds in a match, is something that needs to have some up to a maximum event limit applied to it. 8 swiss / Top 32 7 swiss top 16, or whatever...., using attendence for minimum is fine, but logic and logistics needs to apply the maximum rounds.

The strick enforcement of the "binomial" rule of rounds and top cut is silly. Honestly, has anyone thought about that.
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Read the whole post - it doesn't disappoint, and made me rethink my own perspective on the pro-one day thing. His comment about the three 7-0 thing in particular struck me because I'm beginning to realize that I hold some things of value over others. Last year at regionals, I was one of the people who enthusiastically requested eight rounds as opposed to seven and pods; however, if it comes down to the choice between a one day event with 1-2 less swiss rounds versus a two day event with the full 8-9 swiss rounds, I'd definitely go with the former.

I used to be shy to the idea of having multiple X-0s in a top cut, but after hearing about it functioning well at Haltom City's large event up in DFW, I've begun to change my mind: it works, and in the end. So much in this post echoes what I've been saying, but this really nails things to show why this isn't the best idea if the event isn't upgraded to "super regional" status.

If the largest regionals such as ours are given a "super regional" status, then by all means we should have two days, but if that's not the case, then it's really just a needless exercise. Since POP doesn't have a history of tiering regions in advance, I don't see us being given this special recognition, and so two days just doesn't seem appropriate.

P.S. Mike, when do you think a decision on the matter will be official?
 
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Cyrus said:
Haha yeah - it's JUST above the pain threshold, so it really does make things a bit of a challenge. All worth it for the love of the game, tho. :thumb:

To clarify things a bit, I'd like to point to an excellent post made by SLOW DECK in the corresponding thread:


Read the whole post - it doesn't disappoint, and made me rethink my own perspective on the pro-one day thing. His comment about the three 7-0 thing in particular struck me because I'm beginning to realize that I hold some things of value over others. Last year at regionals, I was one of the people who enthusiastically requested eight rounds as opposed to seven and pods; however, if it comes down to the choice between a one day event with 1-2 less swiss rounds versus a two day event with the full 8-9 swiss rounds, I'd definitely go with the former.

I used to be shy to the idea of having multiple X-0s in a top cut, but after hearing about it functioning well at Haltom City's large event up in DFW, I've begun to change my mind: it works, and in the end. So much in this post echoes what I've been saying, but this really nails things to show why this isn't the best idea if the event isn't upgraded to "super regional" status.

If the largest regionals such as ours are given a "super regional" status, then by all means we should have two days, but if that's not the case, then it's really just a needless exercise. Since POP doesn't have a history of tiering regions in advance, I don't see us being given this special recognition, and so two days just doesn't seem appropriate.

P.S. Mike, when do you think a decision on the matter will be official?
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Please keep in mind allot of players are also going for rating. Less Rounds = Less Rating. I personally think that the two day idea is great, and the average family I think will enjoy this change more than hate it. The way I see it, there's two types of families.

1. Competitive Families - These are the people who show up with the competitive edge, and they don't mind driving in from out of town in order to compete. These people are as was said "gong-ho" for pokemon. Otherwise they wouldn't have been willing to drive 4+ hours to come to regionals. A two day event for them will probably impact them the same way everyone on the gym is responding. Positively.

2. Fun Families - These families are just there to play pokemon, and have fun, they don't mind making top cut or not. Most of these families will be local Houston area families, and in general I can't imagine them taking offense to a two day scenario. Worst case, someone makes top cut, and so they have to go play the next day (unless they want to drop), in which case I'm sure the family would be willing to make an exception for a ONCE a year event. On the opposite end, they don't make top cut, have a good time as usual, and make there way back home Saturday evening.

And that's the two crowds you are really looking at. I can't imagine arguing to anyone that people who drive in from out of town aren't serious enough about the game to stay an extra night. Heck, me and my friend drove from Houston to San Antonio for one cities. We're probably going to travel to wherever states is, and potentially even make the drive to Indianapolis if no one wins a trip.

In all honesty I really just don't think it's that bad to have a two day event, especially not as horrific as you're making it out to be.
 
Ohhh, I'm keeping that "rating/ranking" thing in mind - believe me :wink:...Which only pushes my point even further.

It'd be really interesting to collect info on how much people spend, but dishing out money for hotel is likely to be very unappealing to a huge number of visitors from Dallas, Killeen/far Northwest Houston, Austin, and San Antonio. When I was younger, there's no way I would've been allowed to go to 2006 Regionals if it meant me or my parents having to dish out the money for hotel stay (I got third that year, so making top cut would've been a factor). Since I'm a senior in college now, that's obviously not the case, and I will plan to attend Regionals regardless; however, I'm sure that there are several 8-17 year olds who'll be stuck in that situation, and will either A) have to drop from top cut, or B) just not go at all. The decision to do regionals two days instead of one may make things a little bit cozier for many of the people going regardless, but it instantly blocks out a huge number of people.

Furthermore, even if it is "just" top cut, you put every player in the undesirable situation to choose one thing over the other...Say, church versus Pokemon, homework vs Pokemon, work vs Pokemon (people work Sundays, you know), etc.

You guys say that two days isn't as horrible as you make it sound, but I say that "one" day isn't that bad. For an event like Regionals, all it really takes is some careful tightening (may or may not mean round cutting - could just mean a lot of strictness during lunch break and the dead time between top cut matches). Even Masters should be done by 1-2 AM at the latest...If it happened at '06, a Regional of comparable size, why can't it happen in 2011?
 
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I've run into a snag, I'm having trouble finding a second day venue that's near the Race Park. I have a venue lined up if I want it but it's in The Woodlands, 18 miles away, but I really want something closer to the Race Park.
 
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