Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

2013-2014 Modified Format?

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^The thing is the game needs catcher. Like you said, bench sitters become even more powerful and with the high damage output of attackers and cards like Dusknoir, nothing remains safe and you have Lock decks/ Articuno EX with Dusknoir and thats the format. I dont like catcher as much as the next person but the game is far too damaged to remove such a powerful card because of the power creep. If anything Catcher is now the balance of the game and it sound weird saying that.
I disagree. I actually believe that every deck in the new format has an effective counter. The only specific deck you mentioned was Dusknoir/Articuno-EX, which could be good. However, it could never dominate the format because there are two many answers to it. Virizion-EX, Silver Mirror, Switch, Garbodor, Keldeo-EX, and Escape Rope come immediately to mind, but there are others. Yes, the deck can incorporate answers to some of those but at a certain point, if the deck got too good, everybody would just add four Switch or run Virizion-EX.

Dusknoir in theory seems good but when you apply for the fact that pretty much every other deck in the format can OHKO anything (even stuff we've forgotten like Garchomp/Altaria and Trubbish/Masquerain/Sigilyph), it's not broken. In order to activate Dusknoir's Ability, you have to put some damage on the opponent's board, which means you're not OHKOing. So Dusknoir effectively becomes the "snipe" deck of the new format. I'm sure it has potential (just like many, many other cards, I might add), but like every other card it can never be BCIF. At least that's my opinion.

Also remember that we have a Dusknoir/Paralyze deck in the current format that locks even more stuff (including Catcher, I might add) and only needs to run 4 Energy and it's still not dominating. And this is in a format without Virizion-EX.
Not only that, but can you imagine a game where Genesect Ex becomes the new Luxray GL LV X?

I'll pass!
That's very unlikely because Luxray GL LV. X had a lot of support for its Ability in Poke Turn and the whole SP engine. On top of that, it had an attack that could finish off its what its Power was doing. Sure, Genesect has an okay attack, but it's too hard to charge and sustain over long periods of time.

Now, Genesect admittedly doesn't need to be Active to use its Ability like Luxray did, so that sort of fixes the attacking problem. This theoretically opens the window for it to sit on the bench in any deck and allow other cards to do the attacking. However, it's still an Energy hog. There's no way to accelerate or effectively search Plasma Energy other then Colress Machine, which won't activate Genesect's Ability. So your attachment per turn is going to Genesect every time you want to Catcher. This means it only works in decks like Blastoise and Chandelure that accelerate Energy. However, Blastoise won't appreciate having random Plasma Energy in the deck it can't accelerate or recover and it certainly won't appreciate not being able to attach to Black Kyurem or a similar attacker on a turn it wants to "Catcher". And Chandelure has limited attachments despite the acceleration so it won't want to be putting those on Genesect most of the time. Plus it won't like having non-Fire Energy in the deck.

Chandelure, Blastoise, Ho-Oh, and Colress Machine, and Ether would be the only non-Attack-based acceleration in a Dragons-on format unless I missed something in the new set. Hopefully we can agree that Ho-Oh and Ether can't accelerate enough Energy for a deck not to need its manual attachment for the turn and I covered the other three above.


Edit- Just realized how long this post is. Sorry for hitting you guys with a wall of text.
 
On the other hand, a format where almost no other decks can accelerate energy with Abilities or items may be good for the game, assuming the attacks in those non-accelerating decks are good. The "KO any Plasma Pokemon" Haxorus comes to mind.
 
I disagree. I actually believe that every deck in the new format has an effective counter.

You may be right. You may be wrong. What I know is that Pokémon is a game where the Bench is meant to be "safer" and not "safe", or at least I suspect as much based on the game's history. Giving up an Item just to force the opposing Pokémon of your choice upfront isn't that powerful on its own. Why was Gust of Wind nicknamed "Gust of Win" if it wasn't powerful? Because it wasn't on its own: like now you had decks that were donk enabled but not built only to donk.

So reading through the rest, I've got to ask - what decks does a lack of Pokémon Catcher jump to tournament viable? Most brought up earlier were not persuasive as I've already elaborated upon. What decks suddenly take a significant plunge?

Your analysis if Genesect EX obviously differs from my own, but I wonder if it is because you are mistaking "substitute" for "equal". Yes, a deck will have to burn more resources to "Gust" something out through its Ability, but the decks that will use it... will use it. A Team Plasma deck built around the usual suspects (Thundurus EX, Kyurem [Plasma], and Deoxys EX) won't be able to pull of the counters they current do in a single turn... but two turns will do it, and with Pokémon Catcher gone they have that time.

I think this is the other foundational point that might explain our differing takes on the situation: remember with Pokémon Catcher gone, its gone for everyone. The Pokémon Catcher substitutes won't be as good, but they will be there for the critical game winning plays... which favor the "powah playah" decks we've got now.
 
They should just scrap current mechanics and make it XY On rotation!

Everyone would be at Pre Releases!

New beginning for the game!
 
Yes. Turn all the current value of cards down 90%. That's a genius idea.


No.

If players of a game focus on the value of cards over the overall balance of the game, then that means we have a bad game.

If I was given the choice of doing a rotation to Plasma Storm or a HARD rotation to XY and ruin all value of cards in the game, I would pick the Plasma Storm or hard rotation XY. The way the cards are being made now show the current design them are only interested in the money. This is the first time ever in Pokemon history that most secret rare cards are reprints of highly playable cards. Its also true that they only focus on making good EX Pokemon rather then bring balance to the rest of the game.

I'm fine with card values dropping down 90% if it means the game gets better. If ALL cards have a somewhat consistent value across the board, then that means we have a healthy game.
 
You may be right. You may be wrong. What I know is that Pokémon is a game where the Bench is meant to be "safer" and not "safe", or at least I suspect as much based on the game's history. Giving up an Item just to force the opposing Pokémon of your choice upfront isn't that powerful on its own. Why was Gust of Wind nicknamed "Gust of Win" if it wasn't powerful? Because it wasn't on its own: like now you had decks that were donk enabled but not built only to donk.

So reading through the rest, I've got to ask - what decks does a lack of Pokémon Catcher jump to tournament viable? Most brought up earlier were not persuasive as I've already elaborated upon. What decks suddenly take a significant plunge?
It's not necessarily a lack of Catcher that makes more decks good. It's that combined with the new Silver Bangle and Silver Mirror tools.

Suddenly a Garchomp/Altaria deck can hold Altarias on the Bench, meaning with three Altaria its second attack + Silver Bangle will OHKO anything. This is a better deal than using EX attackers because Garchomp will only give up one Prize so it's less likely to lose Prize exchanges. Sure, between Genesect, Ninetales, and Escape Rope, my deck might lose one or maybe even two Altaria over the course of a game, but keep in mind that Gabite can help get them back and even with only two Altaria in play I still OHKO most cards.

Similarly, a Chandelure deck could be viable because it's no longer impossible to set up more than one Stage 2 consistently. Yes, Genesect and Ninetales are problems, but they also keep the game healthy by preventing broken combos that others have mentioned from becoming too broken. As you say they are substitutes rather than equals, though, so they won't be able to completely break my setup and they won't even be used in every matchup. Chandelure has many attackers it can be combined with, including Reshiram PLF as a good Basic attacker or Infernape as a low-Energy attacker or Heatmor as a late-game finisher (come close to decking yourself then use Super Rod to put back a lot of Fire Energy) or Charizard + Silver Bangle as a power attacker to OHKO everything. Even Rayquaza-EX could be used if you felt you could set up enough Chandelure to make that viable.

Hydreigon decks could become powerful once again because Blend Energy combos with Virizion-EX and with Silver Bangle, Hydreigon OHKOs most EX cards. Of course, the deck takes a hit without Dark Patch or Sableye but it could probably find a way to manage. For example, it could use cheap attackers like Virizion-EX and Absol until the late-game, when it would shift over to Hydreigon or Darkrai-EX.

Empoleon can now set up multiple copies of itself with more ease, allowing for it to be a deck again. Empoleon/Terrakion, Empoleon/Dusknoir, and Empoleon/Ninetales could all be viable and some of these could even be used in combination with each other. A version of Empoleon could even be made with attackers that counter the metagame like Haxorus and Garchomp. No, Empoleon isn't as powerful as the other decks I mentioned, but it has great card advantage and makes better use of Catcher alternatives and format counters than most decks do. In a format with Catcher, Empoleon/Dusknoir would never work because Dusknoir would get Catchered and Empoleon/Ninetales would be stupid because there's Catcher.

Reuniclus decks could exist alongside Plasma Tornadus-EX, Eviolite, and Aspertia City Gym, or even alongside Wailord and Giant Cape. Mr. Mime helps solve the problem of Solosis' low HP and it's a lot harder to take out Reuniclus with the Catcher alternatives available to most decks.

Shedinja could be half-decent alongside Rescue Scarf and Plasma Darkrai or another switching Pokemon. The damage output would be lacking but between Rescue Scarf, Super Rod, and maybe even Ninjask, the deck could possibly hold enough Shedinja in play to win games.

Ampharos could be a decent counter to Blastoise; between it and Frozen City a Keldeo or Black Kyurem that wants to OHKO the Ampharos would get KO'd just trying to get enough Energy attached to make that possible. Yes, it's relatively easy to counter with a Stadium or Escape Rope and it's not very good against most other decks, but it's a cool idea that would have virtually zero chance of working in a format with Catcher... for more than one reason.

Counter cards like Sigilyph, Suicune, and even Ampharos could also be made use of in a format with less ways to switch the opponent out of the Active position. Double Suicune deals with Escape Rope. Genesect and Ninetales again come in to make sure these counter cards don't become too broken, although at a certain point they'll just run out of Plasma Energy or Devolution Spray. That's what happened with Luxray LV. X decks against Mewtwo LV. X back in the day.

Also, set up and support Pokemon could become semi-viable again. In a deck where I already have Stage 2 cards, a 1-0-1 line of Magnezone wouldn't be terrible because if I drop Magnemite on the right turn, my opponent probably won't be able to use their Catcher alternatives effectively right at that turn. Then after I get Magnezone, it's a lot harder to KO, so I can hope that they will choose to focus on other more immediate threats. Even if they don't, they've now wasted many resources to KO a tech of mine that's not integral to my main strategy. Catcher is just one card but Ninetales and Genesect are many cards that have additional effects (not being able to attach for turn, not being able to use the next turn without Devolution Spray).

The same could be applied to cards like Electrode and Clefable; they could actually be used to set decks up and draw cards although their effects aren't necessarily good enough to do so in most decks. Roserade, on the other hand, might actually be good alongside Ninetales and Devolution Spray. Even Jirachi-EX could be viable as a consistency tech since there would be less ways to abuse its low HP.

Also keep in mind that the Dragons-on format gets rid of all our old search except Ultra Ball and Plasma Ball plus it gets rid of N and maybe Tropical Beach. This means decks can't be as consistent as they are now and could encourage cards like Durant, Shaymin, Manaphy, and Emolga to be used as starters for setup. At first, it seems like fast decks like Plasma would run through these cards, but now we have Silver Mirror. And it can't just be Catchered around either; Tool Scrapper or Escape Rope has to be used. The former is hard to justify in high counts in a speed deck while the latter can be dealt with by attaching two Silver Mirror. Sure, there's still Landorus-EX, but it's not well-positioned for a late-game, especially in a format with Blastoise, Keldeo-EX, and Plasma Kyurem.

And then on top of all this, there's still the decks we have now. Blastoise decks still exist but they're made a lot worse by the fact that many non-EX cards can OHKO its EXs. Yes, it also gets better because Blastoise can't be "Catchered" as easily but testing reveals that Garchomp decks, Trubbish/Sigilyph decks, and many other non-EX based decks have favorable matchups against it.

And then there's the Trubbish/Sigilyph/Masquerain deck, which would be good anyway, but is yet another deck that could be pushed above the abyss of the lower tiers by the fact that the opponent is unlikely to be able to Catcher more than one Sigilyph with 4 Tools in a game.

Plasma decks would still be good because they're fast and make decent use of Genesect but wouldn't be broken because of Drifblim and Silver Mirror.

Garbodor decks would stay good. Landorus and Big Basic decks would get better because it's a fast card in a relatively slow format but would also be a lot worse because Landorus's first attack is nowhere near as good as it was with Catcher.

Darkrai decks would fall apart completely without Dark Patch but that's okay since we're bound to lose some decks with rotation. Of course Gothitelle and Eelektrik couldn't be used anymore as well.

Klinklang would get better because an EX-centered deck would have a lot of trouble against it, but would remain balanced in a format with a lot of non-EX attackers and no Shift Gear Klinklang.

Now, to be fair, much of this is theorymon but I have actually done some testing in a Dragons-on format since I'm not going to Nationals.
Your analysis if Genesect EX obviously differs from my own, but I wonder if it is because you are mistaking "substitute" for "equal". Yes, a deck will have to burn more resources to "Gust" something out through its Ability, but the decks that will use it... will use it. A Team Plasma deck built around the usual suspects (Thundurus EX, Kyurem [Plasma], and Deoxys EX) won't be able to pull of the counters they current do in a single turn... but two turns will do it, and with Pokémon Catcher gone they have that time.

I think this is the other foundational point that might explain our differing takes on the situation: remember with Pokémon Catcher gone, its gone for everyone. The Pokémon Catcher substitutes won't be as good, but they will be there for the critical game winning plays... which favor the "powah playah" decks we've got now.
Yeah, I understand that Genesect works even if it's not as good as Catcher. I hope I didn't ever sound like I was calling the card bad. Rather, I'm pointing out that many decks simply won't use it, or Ninetales for that matter.

Why? Because of space. Genesect and Ninetales take up at about twice as much space as Catcher did when applying for pre-evolutions, Devolution Spray, and/or Plasma Energy and yet they're not as good as Catcher. Especially in a format with more evolutions, it's very hard to justify such cards in every or even most decks.

For example, in past formats, we didn't see Luxray GL LV. X in most decks. For the most part it stuck to SP decks although there were exceptions (the worlds winning Beedrill deck). However, it was a Catcher alternative, so to speak. And the fact that it had a good attack and good support in Poke Turn provided even more reasons to run it.

We're already seeing many decks like Blastoise, Eelektrik, Klinklang, and Gothitelle drop down to 2-3 Catcher because of space and because they don't need it that much, so they'll have even more trouble justifying giving up even more space for even less effect. Of course Plasma decks would use Genesect and I'm sure we'd see creative uses of Genesect, Ninetales, and other cards like Dusknoir but that doesn't mean that they'll be in every deck or that they'll make other potential decks unplayable.

Again really sorry about the wall of text. I tend to get overly excited when talking about card design and stuff, haha.
 
As someone who just got back into the game this year (aka my entire binder is Black and White cards) if they do a hard rotation I'm moving to MTG or finding another hobby no questions asked, and I know I'm not alone. I've spent about 300$ on these cards because I thought I would be able to use them for at least a year, I bought all the latest sets so that they wouldnt rotate, and if your going to tell me today I could drop ~400$ on a plasma deck and tommorow that's all worthless, I would feel a bit more than peeved.
 
As someone who just got back into the game this year (aka my entire binder is Black and White cards) if they do a hard rotation I'm moving to MTG or finding another hobby no questions asked, and I know I'm not alone. I've spent about 300$ on these cards because I thought I would be able to use them for at least a year, I bought all the latest sets so that they wouldnt rotate, and if your going to tell me today I could drop ~400$ on a plasma deck and tommorow that's all worthless, I would feel a bit more than peeved.

Don't drop $400 :p



1717171717
 
If players of a game focus on the value of cards over the overall balance of the game, then that means we have a bad game.

People sink a LOT of money into this game; it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned over the value of their assets. Money doesn't come by easily, and while I can afford to take such a hit, most of the younger kids at league would be in huge trouble because they don't have jobs or a lot of money.

It's like saying that I don't care about my dog because I asked the vet how much surgery would be before blindly signing a bunch of papers. Or that I don't care about being healthy because I compare Whole Food prices to Wal Mart. If you're not rich, life requires some degree of being practical...
 
People sink a LOT of money into this game; it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned over the value of their assets. Money doesn't come by easily, and while I can afford to take such a hit, most of the younger kids at league would be in huge trouble because they don't have jobs or a lot of money.

It's like saying that I don't care about my dog because I asked the vet how much surgery would be before blindly signing a bunch of papers. Or that I don't care about being healthy because I compare Whole Food prices to Wal Mart. If you're not rich, life requires some degree of being practical...

Its understandable but we have to remember that Pokemon is a kids game. All of the money cards are in the playable ultras and secrets as well as a hand full of trainers. almost 90 percent of the card pool is worthless.

The game shifted to a money focused game whos point it to sell overpowered basics and trainers. If lets say 75 to 80 percent of the card pool were playable and card values were balanced then I would not care either way but put card values are so inflated that is almost hard to trade so if kids have nothing to trade of value but a bunch of 50 cent cards, then the issue still remains.
 
Its understandable but we have to remember that Pokemon is a kids game. All of the money cards are in the playable ultras and secrets as well as a hand full of trainers. almost 90 percent of the card pool is worthless.

The game shifted to a money focused game whos point it to sell overpowered basics and trainers. If lets say 75 to 80 percent of the card pool were playable and card values were balanced then I would not care either way but put card values are so inflated that is almost hard to trade so if kids have nothing to trade of value but a bunch of 50 cent cards, then the issue still remains.

True that pokemon is a kids game, but if we're going to go that route instead of considering the competitive scene then all these balance issues wont matter, little jimmy on the playground probably isn't running plasma box. :p

I do agree that the state of the game is, as pokemon said, "The sense of adventure" the fact that you could buy one pack and get super lucky... orrrrr maybe 20 ish packs like i have and all you have to show is a white kyurem EX.

And to whoever said don't drop 400$, thanks that helps everyone wasting money on packs until they announce this, however considering the fall tins are going to be as far back as plasma storm (Lugia EX) i highly doubt (hope... it IS pokemon) they'll do such a drastic rotation.
 
The game shifted to a money focused game whos point it to sell overpowered basics and trainers. If lets say 75 to 80 percent of the card pool were playable and card values were balanced then I would not care either way...

sir... this, here is 12 years of non-stop playing, many rotations, and whatnot, speaking...and you stole the words out of my mouth...this game has changed...to one of the none of the best scenarios...i hope they come to their rightful minds and go for a no rotation, since last year, they had the biggest rotation cut ever...7 full editions went down the drain...nnd that was not good...and the righteous thing to do, this year, is not to have any rotation, and make a full X and Y format for the 2014-2015 season.
 
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sir... this, here is 12 years of non-stop playing, many rotations, and whatnot, speaking...and you stole the words out of my mouth...this game has changed...to one of the none of the best scenarios...i hope they come to their rightful minds and go for a no rotation, since last year, they had the biggest rotation cut ever...7 full editions went down the drain...nnd that was not good...and the righteous thing to do, this year, is not to have any rotation, and make a full X and Y format for the 2014-2015 season.

You do realise 7 sets were cut because they had no rotation a couple of years before, and a lack of rotation in the subsequent year? Anything other than HGSS-ON would have been a horrible decision. Its not farfetched that we'll get no rotation this year, and then XY-ON this time next year.
 
The game shifted to a money focused game whos point it to sell overpowered basics and trainers. If lets say 75 to 80 percent of the card pool were playable and card values were balanced then I would not care either way but put card values are so inflated that is almost hard to trade so if kids have nothing to trade of value but a bunch of 50 cent cards, then the issue still remains.

................

This is how the game has almost ALWAYS been.

Remember when Storm was the best deck? $50 for a Lugia ex, and you generally wanted to run 2.

Remember when Mew ex was completely broken and MewTrick won worlds hands down? $50 for each Mew ex. 4 required.

Remember when Speed Spread was the best deck and you needed a $50 Jolteon STAR, multiple Absol ex, and multiple Eeveelution ex that also weren't cheap?

Remember when the Holon Engine was the required driving force of every deck and you needed 4 $20 Transceivers? And 3-4 $15 Holon Mentors (until it got reprinted)?

Remember when DR Rayquaza ex was $50? Rayquaza STAR over $100?

AND THE LIST GOES ON.

THIS IS NOTHING NEW.

edit, addendum: and ironically, most of those formats had *fewer* tournament-viable decks than the current format does.
 
^ But you did not need those cards to win and Pokemon ex did not overshadow every other card in the card pool. Other cards also had value as well and most were not hard to trade for. I did not need most of these cards to do well. Sure I had a Rayquaza Star and Lugia ex in my deck but they did not cost me a arm and a leg to trade for. The main forces of my Chaos Legends deck was Articuno ex, Zapdos ex and Moltres ex and I got second at a city championships with it.

I also, in ANY given format was able to take 30 bucks and make a deck using my favorite Pokemon and placing high in tournaments. A LOT of cards had a place in the format and the last ex format had MANY tournament viable decks, each using very different strats.

I'll go back to 2005. Here is a list of decks that won at City Champions

City Champion decks for the 15+ division:
61 Scizogross
50 Queendom
46 Ludicargo
34 Draggytrode
32 ZRE
28 Medicham
23 Meta-Nite
23 Dark TTar
19 Eeveelution
18 RockLock
13 Blastoise-ex
12 Typhlosion-ex
8 Dark Slowking
8 TTar-ex
6 Metattack
5 Espeon-ex
5 Dark Steelix
5 Feraligator-ex
5 Meganium
5 Zap-turn-dos
4 Metatrode
4 Jumpluff
4 Hariyama
4 Mercury
3 Dragonite-d
3 acid liability
3 Tyranitar-d
3 Blaziken
3 Burning Liability
3 Steelix-ex/Tyranicargo
2 Dark Liability
2 Flareon-ex
2 Sunflora
2 Houndoom
2 Camerupt
2 Ho-oh-ex
2 Four-corners
2 Crobat
2 Venucenter
2 Manectric-ex
2 eggs.dec
2 Jynx Pwn4g3
2 Polytoed
2 Sally-ex
2 Salamence-d
Dusclops-ex
Lunatone/Solrock Swarm
Pilowswine
Machamp
Marowak
Vilex
Steelix-ex
Mediyama
Swampert
Slowbro
Chex Mix
Articuno-ex
Zapdos-ex
Liability
Chaos Legends

This is not a"few" tournament viable decks, this is many. Other formats were like this as well. Sure the format had its OP decks but other things were still winning. The only decks winning now are the ones they print in a set, ready to play. The only cards that matter now are EX Pokemon and other big basics that can still hit the 180 damage mark, while giving up one prize and overshadow every other card. Trading for cards in this format is hard because nothing else has value. Most booster packs are worth about a dollar when you pay 4.50 to get them and have almost no resale value outside of bulk.

There is a huge difference in this format now and the last ex format.
 
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